One God, Two Gods, Red God Blue God: Melisandre and the Night's Queen

[LmL]

I hadn't considered Mel may have been menstruating, I thought it was more general leakage because of the damage to her internals things like birthing shadow babies would have done. Either way, though it may be proof of some humanity hanging on, it could not possibly be classified as a normal humanity :D

I find the best fit for what seems to be happening to Mel some type of possession. She's like Reagan in the Exorcist, if Regan had a working womb and the demon had been hanging around inside her for years.

I am sure, that under her glamor, Mel looks quite horrifying. I'm sure most Shadowbinders do.

As a side not, surely Mel would not have presented a comfortable environment for Stannis' penis :D

Her youthfulness is not a glamour - she rides horses and does other vigorous activity that a 90 year old would have trouble with. Her health is dependent on magic. She’s actually extended her life - it’s not just an illusion. Not saying she doesn’t USE illusion on herself, o that how she looks is how she really is, just that she is more than a glamour, and I wouldn’t expect her to look old underneath.

[Blazfemur]

Blazfemur, can you clarify? What is your position exactly regarding female Others, which oath are you referring to, and which NW claim is a lie exactly? I think I might agree with you but I’m a bit confused.

NO! you kidding me? I cant take over another thread lmao

ill summize as briefly as possible, and for all of you who know me it's just my usual song and dance propaganda:

"All crows are liars" - Old Nan

I'd like to reiterate, everything we've seen, thus far:

1) Others, take Craster's boys, that much is confirmed, we can assume they also take other Wildling's children. They TAKE the children, so technically, they fathernone.

2) Others, again, take Craster's boys, from everything we've seen, so technically, there are no girls to wive.

3) Others appear nomadic. There are no designated lands north of the wall. Theyre always on the move, ever toward that wall. They hold no lands.

Sound familiar?

I'll elaborate further.

HBO leaked The Night's King as to being the leader in *that* episode. All in black, he was surrounded by 12 others, also in black. Recall the tale of The Last Hero and his 12 companions (that much, is just a theory, that TNK=TLH, but i wont get into that here even though there is now a LOT of evidence to connect the two)

So we have The Night's King, as the big bad of the Others. Who apparently, to some extent, follows the Night's Oath (Others are not undead like wights, they are living, and as such, TNK is still under oath). I ask you, what's left that we know about TNK that got him exiled (other than his supposed tyranny, of course)

Well, Old Nan is sure he's a Stark, im gonna take her word on that. I'm going to further theorize, that ancestral blade Ice, the original one, wasn't actually lost, but is still being wielded by a Stark, exiled aeons ago and "lost" with him.

We come to why, The Night's Watch exiled TNK (again, other than his supposed wretchedness). It's known TNK lost at Winterfell by the teaming up of the current then King Stark, and Joramun beyond-the-wall. The common belief, is that he turned Other when he gave his seed to a female Other, The Night's Queen. Remember, so far, we havent seen or heard of a female Other at all. Well, certainly there is documentation to show for this, records that this night's king did this and took an Other for his bride, right? Wrong. Per Sam to Jon, in the Night's Watch library, the records only go so far back, and the older ones were purposely either lost, burned, or destroyed. Why? Why destroy the records? It'sd also stated TNK's name was stricken, and his legacies villainized for what he did with that female Other. But there IS no female Other, you see? And the only thing we have to show for it, is the very word of the very watch that exiled him and villainized his name, THEN destroyed any evidence that wouldve proven otherwise!

Let me ask you this, Jon Snow's current situation. Is he to be remembered in the records as a charmismatic leader that drove back the wildlings and then attempted to broker a peace? NO! The watch, comprised of liars, rapists, and thieves, are going to make Jon out to be the bad guy, they did what they had to do, Jon laid with a Wildling girl, and became one of them. They killed him, because he betrayed the watch. Right? Does ANY of that, sound at ALL familiar?

Now, im not saying there might not have been a girl, that the Nights King was interested in -- it certainly is a possibility. It's rumored, she could have been the daughter of the Barrow King, a lord of the graveyard/cemeteries of the area. If Daenerys is spoken of in rumor, they call her the dragon queen. If Sansa and Joffrey worked out, she'd be the wolf queen. Right? So what would someone who's known for graves and cemeteries be called?

A corpse queen?

Regardless of The Night's King's history. It all leads back the original question. Based on what we've seen throughout the series, how they kind of follow the oath to a certain extent, the fact they take boys, the fact the power is transferred, and theyre not born from a female into it. While it's not a popular theory, but one i kinda invented myself (and get SO much shit for), I'm going to go out on a limb and say I agree with Old Nan, all crows are liars, because they dont know the truth, as it was never revealed to them. There is no Night's Queen, and The Night's King, aka The Last Hero, wielder of Ice, the 13th Lord Commander Stark himself, is still upholding his vows -- AND has a vendetta against those that wronged him.

He's a Stark, he's lost the wall, he means to retake it, break past the wall, then rest finally in his proper burial place as a Stark/

[Blazfemur]

And to be honest, the best argument anyone has given me is that they dont agree with me. Thats it. No evidence to contradict what ive put together, just that its too far fetched, and Others are mindless genocidal ggrrrrrrrrrr conquer drones

[Barri_The_Bold]

And to be honest, the best argument anyone has given me is that they dont agree with me. Thats it. No evidence to contradict what ive put together, just that its too far fetched, and Others are mindless genocidal ggrrrrrrrrrr conquer drones

But that doesn't mean you're right. Don't get me wrong, I like your theory, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to agree with it and only because it can't be disproven doesn't mean it's right. That's like saying God is real because you can't prove he's not.

And at this point I don't think there's anyone left who believes the Others to be just plain evil, that's just not GRRM's style. I would be very disappointed if it turned out like that and I guess I wouldn't be the only one.

There's one question I have about your theory. When the Night's King is leading the Others up to this day, why are there so few Others? He had thousands of years to create an whole army of Others but still we hardly see a hand full of them but hundreds of wights instead. And I'm pretty sure there's few of them because otherwise they could have obliterated the wildlings (and the NW at the Fist of the First Men) instead of "only" decimating them by a few hundred (or maybe a few thousand in the case of the wildlings).

[Blazfemur]

But that doesn't mean you're right. Don't get me wrong, I like your theory, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to agree with it and only because it can't be disproven doesn't mean it's right. That's like saying God is real because you can't prove he's not.

And at this point I don't think there's anyone left who believes the Others to be just plain evil, that's just not GRRM's style. I would be very disappointed if it turned out like that and I guess I wouldn't be the only one.

No no no, i didnt mean it that im right. I want to legit debate it out and come to some sort of a conclusion with an opposing viewpoint. I welcome the debate. But there hasnt been debate. It's just "no, no i dont agree with that," which ISNT helpful at all, you know what I mean?

I never meant i was right lmao at this point i can fully admit it's semi-crackpot, BUT it has circumstantial evidence backed up by the entirety of the series, book AND show.

No i would never claim to be right in it, not until it's read on-page, i just want to amicably debate it out without someone just saying, i disagree with you youre wrong the book plainly says theres a nights queen.

There's one question I have about your theory. When the Night's King is leading the Others up to this day, why are there so few Others? He had thousands of years to create an whole army of Others but still we hardly see a hand full of them but hundreds of wights instead. And I'm pretty sure there's few of them because otherwise they could have obliterated the wildlings (and the NW at the Fist of the First Men) instead of "only" decimating them by a few hundred (or maybe a few thousand in the case of the wildlings).

But are there so few Others? From what we've *seen,* (yes, i know, show-wise because theres not a lot of book-view), we've seen an army of wights. We've seen TNK, we've seen 12 in black. 13 of them. The baby transporter appears Other. not in black. Just because those 13 took the vows, doesnt mean all Others are watch, or were once part of, the watch.

It may not be, that everything we've seen, are all wights. That huge scene witht he entire army for the most part of a back-view, if i recall correctly. Furthermore, even if that entire mass is ALL wight, theyre just the pawns anyway. The brains would be held back. It also breaks down to blood, too (in my eyes, anyway):

The Valyrians could control dragons. Valyrians, not Targaryens. All Valyrians. Throughout time, Targaryens practiced incest, thus, potenizing whatever was in their blood that controlled dragons, making the impact, more manipulative. "Keeping the bloodline pure." While not confirmed, id theorize it was their incest, and eliminating lesser houses, eliminating contaminants in the blood that would weaken their hold on dragons.

Throughout generations, the bond becomes stronger, as the lesser bloodlines are washed away (but never eliminated completely, obviously) It's for this reason I think Targaryens have a better hold on dragons, than other Valyrian-blooded houses.

So what does this have to do with Others?

Here's where it gets interesting. This too, is also a theory i put together, that isnt even remotely popular and never will be.

As is fire, so must be ice. Whats the Targaryen, or even Valyrian, equivelent, in the north? First Men blood. Eddard Stark always bragged of his bloodlines with the First Men, that it's the blood of the first men that flows through their veins, they should kill a man by looking him in the eye when they sentence them to death. Well, another common trait is the warging, which obviously isnt exclusive to Starks but many of those First Men blooded.

But wait, The Targaryens practiced incest, and had a stronger bond with dragons because of it, right?

There isnt anything remotely in the north that practiced incest---OH WAIT THERE IS

Was Craster JUST a pig? Or did he "protect" his daughters, to prevent the bloodlines from being contaminated. We've seen the Ice Gift transferred, from one being to another. Is the potency of First Men blood a factor? Honestly, i couldnt tell you, all i could say, is Craster had an agreement, that kept him alive, while potenizing his blood through each generation of incest. An 'old friend, of the watch.' Well, which one? Is there a stronger bond, in receiving the ice gift, the more potent the First Men blood is without being contaminated?

Again, all theory. But as with confirmed Targaryen dominance over dragons through their incest, one could only wonder if there was one, on the other side of the world

[Durran Durrandon]

Best. Thread title. EVER.

Thanks, I have small children. It affects my brain. I referenced Yertle the Turtle the other day in LmL 's astronomy thread to make a point about moon tropes in writing.

Amenorhea is one of the first things that happens to a woman who's body is shutting down in any way, due to malnutrition or almost anything else. Fertility cycles are delicate like that. And black blood is actually quite normal during regular menstruation--though it's usually not smoking. The fact that Mel still gets her period, even in a rather light and smoking form, seems to indicate that her humanity has been subverted rather than extinguished. She probably is slowly transitioning into a non-human fire-magic creature, but the process is not complete.

Hmm, I hadn't taken it as menstruation on account of the smoking blood, but if she can have shadow babies, I guess smoking menstrual blood makes sense.

[Durran Durrandon]

there is, no such thing, as a female Other. buy into it. sell it to your friends. pyramid scheme it.

there never was, and there never will be. it goes against the oath.

after much consideration, and while He may have lain with the barrow king's daughter, and thus she could be nicknamed "the corpse queen," after being a gravelord's daughter, she would be human (i.e. daenerys being a 'dragon queen,' sansa a 'wolf queen,' etc)

but no, im going to follow through with the female species cannot inherit the Ice Gift. Which makes the night's watch's claim, a lie. an excuse.

Well, I never said there was a woman Other. I said the Night's Queen was a human changed by ice magic and that she and others before he might have birthed the starter generation of Others. I think I've provided a fair amount of textual evidence to back that up. Though i wouldn't sell it as dogma. Thus I actually agree with you that the Others are human in origin.

As far as I can see, your theory fits the Night's Watch oath just fine, but your basis for doubting the Night's King tale is Nan told Bran all crows are liars. The problem is that she is the one who told Bran the Night's King story, not a crow.

[Blazfemur]

Well, I never said there was a woman Other. I said the Night's Queen was a human changed by ice magic and that she and others before he might have birthed the starter generation of Others. I think I've provided a fair amount of textual evidence to back that up. Though i wouldn't sell it as dogma. Thus I actually agree with you that the Others are human in origin.

As far as I can see, your theory fits the Night's Watch oath just fine, but your basis for doubting the Night's King tale is Nan told Bran all crows are liars. The problem is that she is the one who told Bran the Night's King story, not a crow.

We agree on much, which is definitely a good thing.

my basis isnt just Old Nan. My basis is that we havent seen or witnessed females, they take males, and sam said to jon that the records were lost, burned, or destroyed. his name was even stricken. it's a blatant coverup.

it doesnt take long to piece together that based on no females seen, only males taken, especially witht he amount of females craster had at his disposal, FURTHER bolstered we've seen the power transferred, and not born with, that there's no such thing as a female Other or reproduction in the normal usual way. old nan was a final afterthought that kind of fit the situation, but was always there from day one, it was just finding the context to which she was speaking, and i think THIS, is it.

think about it, none of the night's watch now knows what happened, if that is in fact what happened. theyre fighting something they were told to fight because of reasons they were told. theres nothing written to go by.

Going to ask a very dangerous question here...has there been an instance where an Other, outright, made the first move on anyone? I'm not talking wights. wights ARE, in fact, the mindless drones we spoke of. However. Has an Other attacked anyone, yet?

Recall the prologue, the very first snippet we have. a group of Others falls on Royce. He's shivering. Theyre mocking him, hissing, laughing. HE then LUNGES at them in all his vain glory, and gets just what he asked for.

In old nan's story to bran she says the last hero, on his horse, with his dog (i will always picture a direwolf, which is also, a dog species), and his 12 companions went looking for the cotf. Old Nan says his companions fell, one by one, then his horse, his dog. Finally, Others descended on him, and the cold from their grasp froze his blade so fiercely it snapped -- then she gets interrupted and theres no end to the story. The world of ice and fire, says he MADE it to the children. There's something there we're missing. How did he meet with them, as a prisoner? As an Other? It's said he brought back the power he needed. What power did he attain?

....and dont even get me STARTED on that huge block of ice thats just sitting there. Pfft. Yeah, sure, that huge construct, made up of that element Others can manipulate, was built by humans. Sure it was.

[Durran Durrandon]

We agree on much, which is definitely a good thing.

my basis isnt just Old Nan. My basis is that we havent seen or witnessed females, they take males, and sam said to jon that the records were lost, burned, or destroyed. his name was even stricken. it's a blatant coverup.

it doesnt take long to piece together that based on no females seen, only males taken, especially witht he amount of females craster had at his disposal, FURTHER bolstered we've seen the power transferred, and not born with, that there's no such thing as a female Other or reproduction in the normal usual way. old nan was a final afterthought that kind of fit the situation, but was always there from day one, it was just finding the context to which she was speaking, and i think THIS, is it.

think about it, none of the night's watch now knows what happened, if that is in fact what happened. theyre fighting something they were told to fight because of reasons they were told. theres nothing written to go by.

Going to ask a very dangerous question here...has there been an instance where an Other, outright, made the first move on anyone? I'm not talking wights. wights ARE, in fact, the mindless drones we spoke of. However. Has an Other attacked anyone, yet?

Come to think of it, do we have any evidence that the Others we have seen are male? Nothing in the descriptions indicates gender. Look at the prologue to GoT. They are referred to as "it", repeadetly, with one fleeting "him" to indicate a gender, but that could just be POV bias. Don't get me wrong. I think everything indicates the Others are male and do not sexually reproduce, but I couldn't swear to it, even though it backs up my no hybrids premise.

As for attacks, they have used cold as an area attack on several wildlings, though I couldn't prove those wildlings hadn't agressed the Others on prior occasions. See Tormund's accounts. As for Waymar, it approached him with its weapon out. That is a hostile act.

[Barri_The_Bold]

No no no, i didnt mean it that im right. I want to legit debate it out and come to some sort of a conclusion with an opposing viewpoint. I welcome the debate. But there hasnt been debate. It's just "no, no i dont agree with that," which ISNT helpful at all, you know what I mean?

I never meant i was right lmao at this point i can fully admit it's semi-crackpot, BUT it has circumstantial evidence backed up by the entirety of the series, book AND show.

No i would never claim to be right in it, not until it's read on-page, i just want to amicably debate it out without someone just saying, i disagree with you youre wrong the book plainly says theres a nights queen.

But are there so few Others? From what we've *seen,* (yes, i know, show-wise because theres not a lot of book-view), we've seen an army of wights. We've seen TNK, we've seen 12 in black. 13 of them. The baby transporter appears Other. not in black. Just because those 13 took the vows, doesnt mean all Others are watch, or were once part of, the watch.

It may not be, that everything we've seen, are all wights. That huge scene witht he entire army for the most part of a back-view, if i recall correctly. Furthermore, even if that entire mass is ALL wight, theyre just the pawns anyway. The brains would be held back. It also breaks down to blood, too (in my eyes, anyway):

Okay, it sounded different in the former post, my apologies.

Have you ever considered that there are simply no written sources from the time of the Night's King because they didn't start to write things down until many centuries or millenia later? They were First Men after all, who were known to use runes (see the armor of the Royces) and not the language/alphabet the Andals brought much later and thus probably not ink and paper. So the tale of the Night's King could simply be word of mouth, exaggerated over the millenia. He was possibly just a cruel man greedy for power and everything else is fictitious.

I was referring to the books. I almost always do (and if not I say so) because I believe the books and the show are heading different directions and won't end the same way, siply because the show will get ahead of the books. Now in the books we see the group of Others in the prologue of AGOT, the one Sam slays and we know (although we don't see them) there were some at the Fist of the First Men. Where I'm getting at is that if they were more in numbers (Others not wights), they could have easily overpowered the NW and killed every last man since they're so obviously superior to humans. And they didn't know the NW found the dragonglass at that time, they only know after Sam used it. They could have also killed all of the wildlings years ago. The only logical reason they didn't do that is that they don't have the numbers and need to rely on wights.

The question now is why are there so few when they were gone for thousands of years and thus had enough time to grow in numbers? Assuming they are humans changed threw magic there's an whole population of wildlings to "harvest".

One possibility I see is that there is some sort of resource needed to "convert" humans into Others and that resource is limited or available but they can't get their hands on. The other possibility I see is that the Others attacking the wildlings and the NW are simply a faction of the entire Other population (which could be living hidden somewhere in the far north). The humans have factions, so why not the Others?

Come to think of it, do we have any evidence that the Others we have seen are male? Nothing in the descriptions indicates gender. Look at the prologue to GoT. They are referred to as "it", repeadetly, with one fleeting "him" to indicate a gender, but that could just be POV bias. Don't get me wrong. I think everything indicates the Others are male and do not sexually reproduce, but I couldn't swear to it, even though it backs up my no hybrids premise.

As for attacks, they have used cold as an area attack on several wildlings, though I couldn't prove those wildlings hadn't agressed the Others on prior occasions. See Tormund's accounts. As for Waymar, it approached him with its weapon out. That is a hostile act.

Not necessarily imo. If you approached something you don't know but want to find out more about and you have a weapon at hand, wouldn't you keep it ready just in case you needed it soon? It could simply be caution.

[Lenabot]

The Others have always fascinated me. I've always loved mythology, and they have some pretty strong links to the aos si in Celtic tales. Everything north of the Wall is very Celtic. Which is no surprise, because Martin obviously based Westeros on the British Isles. They also fascinate me because I can't solidly figure out what their motives are!

First, regarding female Others:

We've only seen a couple Others in the book. Based on that, assuming that there are no female Others is somewhat like an alien walking into a male locker room, seeing no women, and coming to the conclusion that humanity is 100% male. Craster's part of the story definitely implies that infant boys are being transformed into Others -- but we don't have full context yet. We don't know what Craster's "pact" with them was. Sacrificing only boys may have been his personal choice. You have to remember that Craster's biggest hobby was building an incestuous harem -- and grown sons would have been a threat to him.

So, Craster's story doesn't necessarily imply that the Others can't or won't turn female infants. It could have just been Craster's personal arrangement with them.

The Night's King myth never strictly states what the "queen" was. The physical description indicates that it was likely a female Other, but this new theory about an "Ice Melisandre" works too. I've also heard a suggestion that she was somewhow related to the Barrow Kings (although that theory also suggests that the Others themselves are related to the Barrow Kings -- which does have some mythological support).

Secondly, the nature of the Others:

I know a lot of people are really on board with the notion that Others were originally humans who changed when exposed to the Heart of Winter (or similar). Personally, I've never been a big fan of that view. I think it takes away from their mysterious, supernatural nature. I see them as a separate magic-infused species. They can turn people into new Others, but they are originally an independent species.

If their connection to the aos si myth is somewhat solid, then their nature is to protect things which are sacred to them -- not necessarily to dominate the whole world and bathe it in darkness. They are also strongly associated with the sacred whitethorn tree. No doubt an inspiration for weirwoods.

With the lack of information we have, though, it all comes down to personal taste.

On this theory:

I've always liked the idea of the Others being ruled by a hive queen of some kind -- who could be seen as "the Great Other." Especially since that would be a good counterbalance to R'hllor, who is always described as masculine.

So I'm digging this theory, even if it's a little different. The existence of an Ice-Melisandre is definitely possible. I personally lean toward the queen as being an actual Other, but I'm good with this idea too.

[LmL]

^^^ well that's all pretty damn cool, I really like the hive queen idea. I also buy the idea that they are protecting the heart of winter, on a certain level, but they did come forth and take over the realms of man during the Long Night, which is not defensive. I'm still open minded as to whether they were humans who discovered the ice magic or ice elementals themselves.

I'm not sure that Others and dragons are parallel, but fwiw I do not think dragons were created from wyverns and firewyrms. I think they are evolutionarily similar and so maesters came to that conclusion, but I think dragons are natural (elemental) fire creatures. So it would kind of fit if the Others were such as well. In this case, I would think that the Others didn't have anything to do with the cause of the Long Night (that's was my big magical comet explosion)m but rather took advantage of the favorable conditions - darkness and cold - to come forth and conquer. Alternatively, the cold of the Long Night might have caused them to manifest, or the impact of the dead magical fire moon on Plantos caused an icy reaction from the planet itself, which was the manifestation of ice elementals.

[BalerionTheCat]

I'm also curious if you guys consider the Land of Always Winter as a natural polar area. Or if it is something unnatural, like the Shadow Lands. Personally, I would see these 2 areas as the 2 poles of magical forces, Ice(?) and Fire(?). So if we suppose a Stone fell in the SL, could we not consider another Stone fell in the LoAW?

[Blazfemur]

Consider, as well, what we know of historical lore:

The First Men ruled, the andals came, slaughtered them into submission, and took their wives and children as trophies. They used iron, which beats bronze every single time.

Take into consideration, Fomas' interpretation that the first Others were a group of First Men, that ventured north and came into power. This would suggest (and in agreement with how we saw TNK transfer the Ice Gift into Craster's baby boy), that that group of First Men, obtained, the power of Other when they ventured north. The only ones left, after the Andals demonstrated their rampage, would be males, am i correct in assuming so? (The location, northernmost beyond the wall, is considered the Heart Of Winter.)

Okay, it sounded different in the former post, my apologies.

Have you ever considered that there are simply no written sources from the time of the Night's King because they didn't start to write things down until many centuries or millenia later? They were First Men after all, who were known to use runes (see the armor of the Royces) and not the language/alphabet the Andals brought much later and thus probably not ink and paper. So the tale of the Night's King could simply be word of mouth, exaggerated over the millenia. He was possibly just a cruel man greedy for power and everything else is fictitious.

My debate would be, there were, because they specifically say in TNK's history that his name "was struck fromt he records" and forgotten. This woul din fact imply there were, at one point, written documentation detailing his rule, before exile.

[LmL]

Consider, as well, what we know of historical lore:

The First Men ruled, the andals came, slaughtered them into submission, and took their wives and children as trophies. They used iron, which beats bronze every single time.

Take into consideration, Fomas' interpretation that the first Others were a group of First Men, that ventured north and came into power. This would suggest (and in agreement with how we saw TNK transfer the Ice Gift into Craster's baby boy), that that group of First Men, obtained, the power of Other when they ventured north. The only ones left, after the Andals demonstrated their rampage, would be males, am i correct in assuming so? (The location, northernmost beyond the wall, is considered the Heart Of Winter.)

My debate would be, there were, because they specifically say in TNK's history that his name "was struck fromt he records" and forgotten. This woul din fact imply there were, at one point, written documentation detailing his rule, before exile.

Hold on, this is important. Supposedly writing only came with the Andals - the First Men having only the runes. So, what record was he struck from? If the NW goes back to the LN at the end of the Dawn / Heroes Age (the deliniation there is arbitrary and meaningless), then either they did not have records, and the "stricken form the records" is a figure of speech to say "we don't talk about him anymore, or they did have records and the NW was the only literate part of Westeros. That seems absurd, unless the original NW are Great Empire of the Dawn people from overseas or something crazy like that.

[LmL]

I agree that the Shadowlands and Heart of Winter are opposites of a sort.i don't think the shadowlands were originally as they are now, however.

[Blazfemur]

Hold on, this is important. Supposedly writing only came with the Andals - the First Men having only the runes. So, what record was he struck from? If the NW goes back to the LN at the end of the Dawn / Heroes Age (the deliniation there is arbitrary and meaningless), then either they did not have records, and the "stricken form the records" is a figure of speech to say "we don't talk about him anymore, or they did have records and the NW was the only literate part of Westeros. That seems absurd, unless the original NW are Great Empire of the Dawn people from overseas or something crazy like that.

TNK was the 13th, by that point the watch wasnt so primitive, surely. your mistaking the primitivity of the original first men, to the first men during the night's king's era. Others existed way before the night's king came into play, as did the watch. it's a timeline thing, man.

I agree that the Shadowlands and Heart of Winter are opposites of a sort.i don't think the shadowlands were originally as they are now, however.

while different, it's ironic how if you travel northwest enough beyond the wall, youd end up on the southeastern portion of the planetos map, aka the shadowlands.

the Heart Of Winter and the Heart Of Darkness (Shadowlands) meet, eventually. They may very well be the exact same place. It's actually here, that I theorize that first group of branched off First Men, came into power and turned into the first Others.

[RobOsevens]

while different, it's ironic how if you travel northwest enough beyond the wall, youd end up on the southeastern portion of the planetos map, aka the shadowlands.

the Heart Of Winter and the Heart Of Darkness (Shadowlands) meet, eventually. They may very well be the exact same place. It's actually here, that I theorize that first group of branched off First Men, came into power and turned into the first Others.

Is this in the world book? Are is it your assumption that the shadowlands and land of always winter meet geographically speaking?

[Blazfemur]

Is this in the world book? Are is it your assumption that the shadowlands and land of always winter meet geographically speaking?

specific events are not mentioned and on purpose id assume.

do the math though, logically, the wall and beyond the wall are the northwesternmost portions on the planetos map. the shadowlands of essos, are the southeasternmost portions.

geographically speaking, if you keep travelling northwest beyond the wall, yeah, you end up in the shadowlands

i think where the heart of winter and heart of darkness meet, is where the FM obtained the power of Other.

[LmL]

TNK was the 13th, by that point the watch wasnt so primitive, surely. your mistaking the primitivity of the original first men, to the first men during the night's king's era. Others existed way before the night's king came into play, as did the watch. it's a timeline thing, man.

Have to disagree with everything here. We don't know what the 13th lord commander designation means exactly, but even if it means literally the 13th LC, that's what - 200 years after the Long Night? That's still THOUSANDS of years before the Andals came, and thus thousands of years before writing came to Westeros.

We do not know AT ALL that's the Nights King existed after the LN - all these records oral traditions from thousands of years ago. The 12 "lord commanders" before him could easily be the 12 dead companions of the Last Hero, for example. I for one think the "Nights King" probably ruled during the Long Night, but whether he did or didn't we cannot definitely know the order of events from 10,000 years ago. We do not know if the Nights Watch predates the Others or the Long Night at all. It may or may not. I have no idea why you think to state these assumptions as facts. You may be right, or not, but it's far from certain.

In fact, every story from before or around the time of the Long Night is totally up for grabs, chronilogically. Most people on earth dies, all governments were toppled, famine and earth everywhere.. The survivors would only have faint memories of what came before.

while different, it's ironic how if you travel northwest enough beyond the wall, youd end up on the southeastern portion of the planetos map, aka the shadowlands.

the Heart Of Winter and the Heart Of Darkness (Shadowlands) meet, eventually. They may very well be the exact same place. It's actually here, that I theorize that first group of branched off First Men, came into power and turned into the first Others.

Whoa, what? No, you don't. Not at all - where do you get this idea? The Shadowlands seem to be near the equator, and the heart of winter in the arctic circle. If you go over the arctic, you are on the other side of the world in the NORTHERN hemisphere. You still have to travel all the way down to the equator. The shadowlands are not "just over the hill" from the North. They are thousands of miles apart.