R+L=J v.138

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Reference guide

The R+L=J theory claims Jon Snow most probably is the son of crown prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Ned's sister Lyanna Stark.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Radio Westeros podcast:
A Dragon, a Wolf and a Rose

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if ordinary fire burned his hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. It's a myth that has been refuted by a list of Targaryens being burned. Danaerys 'the unburnt' was indeed unscathed when she hatched the dragon eggs, but that has not stopped her being burned on other occasions. See this thread on Targaryen fire immunity.

Don't all Targaryens have hallmark Valryian silver-golden hair and purple eyes?
Not all of them: Valarr and Queen Alysanne had blue eyes. Bittersteel, who like Jon was half first men blood, had brown hair. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) and Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had the Dornish look (dark hair, black eyes, olive skin). Rhaenyra Targaryen's three sons all had brown hair and brown eyes even though both their parents had light silver-gold hair.
Had Jon Valyrian features, it would give his parentage away: "He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." Tyrion got the bit about the mother wrong, though: his mother was the Stark.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Jon looks very like Arya, and Arya looks very like Lyanna. Jon is Ned's nephew, and Lyanna and Ned looked similar.

Ned is too honourable to lie. If he says Jon is his son, doesn't that mean he must be?
Ned tells Arya that sometimes lies can be honourable. His final words, a confession of his guilt, are a lie to protect Sansa. While a lie can be honourable, cheating on his wife isn't, so Ned's famed honour points to Jon not being his son.

How can Jon be half-Targaryen and have a direwolf?
He's also half Stark, through Lyanna. Ned's trueborn children are half Tully and that doesn't stop them having direwolves.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone being Jon's mother. If he did, there would be no mystery. He names 'Wylla' to Robert, but we do not see him thinking of Wylla being Jon's mother.
There's a hidden hint at who Jon's mother might be: In chapter 4, Eddard's internal monologue goes "Lyanna ... Ned had loved her with all his heart." and in chapter 6, Catelyn thinks "Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely".

Why would Ned not at least tell Catelyn?
We don't have a list of what Ned promised to Lyanna, but know he takes his promises seriously. Maybe he promised not to tell anyone. In Chapter 45, Ned is uncertain what Cat would do if it came to Jon's life over that of her own children. If Catelyn knew that Jon was Rhaegar's son, she might feel that keeping him at Winterfell presented a serious risk to her own children. Ultimately, Catelyn did not need to know, so maybe Ned simply chose to be on the safe side.

Doesn't Ned refer to Robb and Jon as "my sons in the very first chapter?
In speech, not in thought. Ned is keeping Jon's parentage secret. He never thinks of Jon as his son: In Chapter 45, Ned thinks of his children "Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon and explicitly excludes Jon from the list. ADwD Chapter 34 has Bran's vision of younger Ned in the Winterfell godswood: "...let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive..." which not make sense if they are brothers.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
He might, or might not. There was a tradition of polygamy among Targaryens in the past, so the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna married is not easily ruled out. A pro-legitimacy argument is this: The presence of the three kingsguards at the Tower of Joy is best explained if they were defending the heir to the throne, which Jon would only be if he was legitimate.

Can we be certain polygamy is not illegal?
Aegon I and Maegor I practised polygamy. In Westeros, unlike a constitutional monarchy, royals are not subject to the law. So if there ever was a law against it, it did not apply to the Targaryens: In Chapter 33 it says "like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men". Examples demonstrate that it was considered an option for Targaryens: Aegon IV and Daemon Blackfyre may have considered it for Daemon, Jorah Mormont suggested it to Daenerys as a viable option, and she said the same about Quentyn Martell.
George R.R. Martin says in this SSM: "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want". There is also this SSM predating the worldbook.
On Polygamy essay by Ygrain with additions by Rhaenys_Targaryen

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
If so, why would they have apparently made no effort to use this leverage against Robert and Ned? Some argue their Kingsguard vows would have taken precedence and still have required them to leave the Tower to protect Viserys when he became heir -- unless there was another that took precedence [Jon]. Others think they were guarding Lyanna as a hostage at the Tower of Joy. Some say that makes little sense: She would better be kept hostage at King's Landing, and wouldn't require kingsguards to guard her. The mere presence of three kingsguards implies something more important: guarding members of the royal family or maybe the heir.
Frequently suggested readings: At the tower of joy by MtnLion and support of the toj analysis by Ygrain

Isn't there an SSM that says the 3 Kingsguard were following Rhaegar's orders though?
The SSM you may be thinking of is probably this: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."
We know from Barristan, protecting the king is the first and most important of all kingsguard duties. Jamie suggests some other KG to stay with the king when he wants to leave for the Trident and we also learn of a ritual that is performed when all KG meet and the king is guarded by someone who is not from the order.
"Protect vs Obey" is an ongoing subject of debate that is unlikely to be settled until we know more. Either viewpoint is compatible with R+L=J.

Wouldn't Viserys take precedence anyway? Rhaegar died without becoming king, and doesn't the world book call Viserys, not Aegon, Aerys' new heir?
No, in the case of an eldest son dying before the king dies, a grandson comes before a younger son. Even in the case the grandson is yet unborn at the time of death, he would succeed (heir apparent vs. heir presumptive). The world book is written with a Lannister bias (it may be propaganda to undermine Dornish support for the Targaryens) and in hindsight by maesters who have never learned all of what we know from Ned's dreams and memories. If it still turns out to be true... see the next answer.

Are matters of succession just as clear as presented here?
Succession quarrels are a part of medieval power play and even a very clear inheritance could well be contested. So maybe in King's Landing things did happen as the world book says. Rhaegar and Aerys may have been at odds over the succession. Rhaegar told Jaime before leaving for the Trident that he intended to call a council, and The Great Councils of the past have dealt with matters of succession. Who would have accepted such a change is a question worth asking.

Ned is dead. Who's going to tell anyone about it?
Bloodraven and Bran may have learned of it through the weirwood network. Benjen might know. Checkov's Crannogman Howland Reed is the sole survivor of the encounter at the Tower of Joy, and George R.R. Martin has stated he has not yet appeared because he knows too much about the central mystery of the book. "They had found him [Ned] still holding her [Lyanna's] body" tells that there also was someone else besides Howland to find Ned.

Why is this important? What impact can it have on the story?
The careful way the mystery of Jon's parentage was created is reason to believe it's important. What impact it will have on the rest of the series is still unknown.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
It is not so obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on their first read, but most will not. Readers who go to online fan forums, such as this, still represent a very small minority of the readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery. Crowd-sourced internet-based mystery solving like this inevitably make solved mysteries seem more obvious in hindsight.

George R.R. Martin is a "breaker of tropes, there can be no hidden prince, it's simply too cliché.
In order to break a trope it needs to be installed in the first place. It is yet unknown what will happen to Jon in the future. Being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar does not imply the fairy-tale style happy ending associated with the hidden prince trope.

Is there a list of all R+L=J clues that have been found?
There is a list of R+L=J hints, clues and foreshadowing compiled by sj4iy.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?
He has stated that he won't change the outcome of the story just because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.

Previous editions:
Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III) (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV) (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V) (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI) (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16 (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17 (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18 (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19 (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20 (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21 (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22 (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23 (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24 (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25 (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26 (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27 (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28 (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29 (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30 (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31 (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32 (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33 (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34 (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35 (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36 (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37 (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38 (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39 (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v.97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v.98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v.99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L=J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L=J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L=J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L=J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L=J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

"R+L=J v.105" (thread one hundred five)

"R+L=J v.106" (thread one hundred six)

"R+L=J v.107" (thread one hundred seven)

"R+L=J v.108" (thread one hundred eight)

"R+L=J v.109" (thread one hundred nine)

"R+L=J v.110" (thread one hundred ten)

"R+L=J v.111" (thread one hundred eleven)

"R+L=J v.112" (thread one hundred twelve)

"R+L=J v.113" (thread one hundred thirteen)

"R+L=J v.114" (thread one hundred fourteen)

The "[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J" threads were used to openly discuss spoilers from TWoIaF at the time we needed to protect that information.

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.1"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.2"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.3"

"R+L=J v.115" (thread one hundred fifteen)

"R+L=J v.116" (thread one hundred sixteen)

"R+L=J v.117" (thread one hundred seventeen)

"R+L=J v.118" (thread one hundred eighteen)

"R+L=J v.119" (thread one hundred nineteen)

"R+L=J v.120" (thread one hundred twenty)

"R+L=J v.121" (thread one hundred twenty one)

"R+L=J v.122" (thread one hundred twenty two)

"R+L=J v.123" (thread one hundred twenty three)

"R+L=J v.124" (thread one hundred twenty four)

"R+L=J v.125" (thread one hundred twenty five)

"R+L=J v.126" (thread one hundred twenty six)

"R+L=J v.127" (thread one hundred twenty seven)

"R+L=J v.128" (thread one hundred twenty eight)

"R+L=J v.129" (thread one hundred twenty nine)

"R+L=J v. 130" (thread one hundred thirty)

"R+L=J v.131" (thread one hundred thirty one)

"R+L=J v.132" (thread one hundred thirty two)

"R+L=J v.133" (thread one hundred thirty three)

"R+L=J v.134" (thread one hundred thirty four)

"R+L=J v.135" (thread one hundred thirty five)

"R+L=J v. 136" (thread one hundred thirty six)

"R+L=J v. 137" (thread one hundred thirty seven)

[Ser Creighton]

Shiny, soooooooooo Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiny, not like fake Bear Queen shiny, this is a legit shiny.

[Ygrain]

New and unpinned... is its existence a secret to be protected? :P

[The Twinslayer]

What would happen if the king, say King Aegon V, ordered the Lord Commander of his Kingsguard, say it is Ser Duncan the Tall, to give him the gift of mercy. Suppose Egg was grievously wounded, there were no maesters anywhere near, and Egg was facing a days-long, agonizing death.

Dunk has to choose: Team Protect or Team Obey. What does he do?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

New and unpinned... is its existence a secret to be protected? :P

No jokes about the thread that was promised, please, my preciousssssss!

What would happen if the king, say King Aegon V, ordered the Lord Commander of his Kingsguard, say it is Ser Duncan the Tall, to give him the gift of mercy. Suppose Egg was grievously wounded, there were no maesters anywhere near, and Egg was facing a days-long, agonizing death.

Dunk has to choose: Team Protect or Team Obey. What does he do?

We aren't done yet with obey % protect yet? Will we ever be?

The gift of mercy is to be given to dying people. Could the king be healed? No "gift". Could he not? Difficult. Dunk would do it.

[RumHam]

We aren't done yet with obey % protect yet? Will we ever be?

http://i.imgur.com/QhrepTR.gif

Is a pretty good visual metaphor of where we stand.

[Neds Secret]

Protect, serve and obey! In that order?

[Ygrain]

We aren't done yet with obey % protect yet? Will we ever be?

Hardly. Kingsguard doesn't flee :P

[Franziska]

Quote from Lord Varys post in the last RLJ thread:

It was not a royal marriage but a secret and private marriage. Those do not really carry weight legally

Why does a secret marriage carry no weight? That's exactly the same what Jaehaerys and Shaera did.

From the World Book:

"In 240 AC, a year after Prince Duncan's marriage, Prince Jaehaerys and Princess Shaera each eluded their guardians and were secretly married. Jaehaerys was fifteen and Shaera was fourteen at the time of their wedding. By the time the king and queen learned what had happened, the marriage had already been consummated. Aegon felt he had no choice but to accept in."

Aegon had to accept their marriage even without a public celebration and Jaehaerys was also the Prince of Dragonstone. A witnessed and consummated secret marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna would be legal. I guess Rhaegar planed to return to the Red Keep half a year after the marriage (maybe even after the birth of his third child), practice a little bit of "Mea culpa" and everything is fine. Unfortunately a war started before he could end his plan.

[Ygrain]

Quote from Lord Varys post in the last RLJ thread:

Why does a secret marriage carry no weight? That's exactly the same what Jaehaerys and Shaera did.

From the World Book:

"In 240 AC, a year after Prince Duncan's marriage, Prince Jaehaerys and Princess Shaera each eluded their guardians and were secretly married. Jaehaerys was fifteen and Shaera was fourteen at the time of their wedding. By the time the king and queen learned what had happened, the marriage had already been consummated. Aegon felt he had no choice but to accept in."

Aegon had to accept their marriage even without a public celebration and Jaehaerys was also the Prince of Dragonstone. A witnessed and consummated secret marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna would be legal. I guess Rhaegar planed to return to the Red Keep half a year after the marriage (maybe even after the birth of his third child), practice a little bit of "Mea culpa" and everything is fine. Unfortunately a war started before he could end his plan.

Exactly. Secret = invalid is indeed a baseless claim, both in Westeros and in RL.

Besides, Rhaegar would have had two reliable witnesses whose word would have sufficed that the marriage indeed took place.

[The Twinslayer]

Unmasked Lurker said this in the final post of the last thread:

Please explain how it can makes sense for a KG to state that the KG are honor bound not to go to the new king -- who they have no idea whether he is safe or not (as Avalatis accurately describes) -- because they are fulfilling a different vow. If you can convince me that there are any circumstances in which such a statement by a KG could make sense, I might moderate the strength of my views on this issue.

For the answer, look no further than Ser Willas Fell of the Kingsguard. When Rhaenyra took King's Landing, he helped smuggle King Aegon II, who was incapacitated, out of King's Landing. Then Lord Larys, a member of the Small Council, ordered Fell to take charge of Princess Jaehaera and to take her to Storm's End. Note that, like Jon if he is a bastard, Jaehaera was way down the line of succession (since according to her father's whole rationale for taking the throne, a woman could not succeed to the Iron Throne).

Fell swears a vow to accomplish this mission. Thus, if anyone asked him what he was doing, Ser WIllas Fell would say "I swore a vow" -- and that vow required him to leave the king with no Kingsguard protection.

Unmasked Lurker -- this is exactly the situation you asked for.

[Ser Creighton]

Exactly. Secret = invalid is indeed a baseless claim, both in Westeros and in RL.

Besides, Rhaegar would have had two reliable witnesses whose word would have sufficed that the marriage indeed took place.

Unless his KG were not with him, and Mt. Lion established in the last thread that he did not go everywhere with his KG.

So glad I could help.

[BearQueen87]

Shiny, soooooooooo Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiny, not like fake Bear Queen shiny, this is a legit shiny.

I am fake shiny?

I feel like I missed the majority of the last thread...are we still KG'ing?

http://i.imgur.com/QhrepTR.gif

Is a pretty good visual metaphor of where we stand.

Apparently we're still KG'ing

[UnmaskedLurker]

Unmasked Lurker said this in the final post of the last thread:

For the answer, look no further than Ser Willas Fell of the Kingsguard. When Rhaenyra took King's Landing, he helped smuggle King Aegon II, who was incapacitated, out of King's Landing. Then Lord Larys, a member of the Small Council, ordered Fell to take charge of Princess Jaehaera and to take her to Storm's End. Note that, like Jon if he is a bastard, Jaehaera was way down the line of succession (since according to her father's whole rationale for taking the throne, a woman could not succeed to the Iron Throne).

Fell swears a vow to accomplish this mission. Thus, if anyone asked him what he was doing, Ser WIllas Fell would say "I swore a vow" -- and that vow required him to leave the king with no Kingsguard protection.

Unmasked Lurker -- this is exactly the situation you asked for.

No, it is not. If someone asked Ser Fell why there is no one with king -- and he said he swore a vow, it would be understood as a vow to the King to protect his heirs. I also suspect that his answer would not be that they swore a vow -- I suspect he would say that the king was safer in hiding without a KG there to make his presence more likely to be spotted. So it was a special circumstance in which the king arguably was safer without KG.

But the KG as ToJ are in a totally different situation. No argument can be made that Viserys is safer without KG protection. No argument can be made that their vow to Viserys was being fulfilled by protecting his heirs, which he would want done under the circumstances. The KG at ToJ simply cannot have swore a vow to Viserys to protect Jon and Lyanna -- and it is clear that is not what they are saying.

I had a pretty good idea that when I asked this question that this situation would be raised as a counter-example and had already considered it. It is not a counter-example. The statement by Hightower that they cannot go to Viserys because they swore a vow cannot be understood as the same situation as Ser Fell.

Your example simply takes a situation out of context to try to make a parallel that does not exist. The context is completely different and context is critical. Anyone who knew all the facts surrounding Ser Fell's situation would understand how he could think he was keeping his vows to the king by taking the actions he took. No one who knew all the facts surrounding the KG at ToJ (assuming for this purpose that one of the relevant facts is that the KG consider Viserys to be the rightful king) would agree that they are keeping their vows to the king by staying at ToJ and not taking Ned up on his offer to leave and go to Viserys on DS. So Hightowers reference to having to stay at ToJ because they swore a vow makes no sense if Hightower believes Viserys to be the rightful king.

[anonnyscouse]

I know this is not the topic you're discussing right now, but doesn't Lyanna running away with Rhaegar directly contradict GRRM's view on arranged marriages?

[For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.

True, Rhaegar is not a stable boy but Lyanna's marriage to Robert was already arranged and "There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned.".

How does that clear stance compute with R+L?

[UnmaskedLurker]

I know this is not the topic you're discussing right now, but doesn't Lyanna running away with Rhaegar directly contradict GRRM's view on arranged marriages?

True, Rhaegar is not a stable boy but Lyanna's marriage to Robert was already arranged and "There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned.".

How does that clear stance compute with R+L?

I think you answered your own question. Rhaegar is not the stable boy -- he is the crown prince. Crown princes also did not go off and kidnap noble ladies either. No matter what happened, they are not following normal protocol. GRRM is turning the "trope" on its head a bit by having the unhappy noble lady trade up rather than trade down when escaping the unhappy arranged marriage.

[Kingmonkey]

Team AnyoneWhoThingsObeyORProtectIsACertaintyIsDoingItWrong represent!

From the last thread:

I wasn't saying your argument was circular. I was saying that the arguments in this thread keep going in circles.

Can't argue with that! :^)

He has no way to know if Viserys is safe. We see this in the Kingsguard meeting. They ensure the King is safe before leaving him without Kingsguard protection. We as the readers know that Viserys was betrayed on Dragonstone and he was forced to flee across the ocean. Hightower would not have just assumed Viserys was safe (as we know such an assumption is wrong). He would have sent a Kingsguard to ensure that the King is safe. That would mean he is surrounded by trustworthy people.

The assumption wasn't wrong, it was correct -- for nine months. Dragonstone is a near-impregnable fortress, a tough nut to crack when defended by only a handful of men. Viserys was there with probably a couple of thousand men and the entire Targ navy. He's also there under the protection of a good man and true, who is the brother of a Kingsguard -- a noticeable echo of that meeting you mentioned. Stannis had to build a navy virtually from scratch before there was any threat to Viserys.

Would Hightower have known that? Maybe, maybe not. We don't know what the 3KG knew. If he did, then it's entirely possible that he DID assume that Viserys was safe. In that context, the choice is to abandon whatever duty he is performing at the ToJ to be at the side of a king who was as safe as he could possibly be already, or to stick to the duty he was in the middle of. He's a man of honour and a man used to obedience, yes. He's also a man of action -- would he necessarily have put a purely ceremonial function ahead of something he considered important, and had sworn to a member of the royal family to do? I really don't think he necessarily would.

[MtnLion]

Protect, serve and obey! In that order?

That actually sounds correct, based upon my feeling for the oath.

[MtnLion]

"There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned.".

How does that clear stance compute with R+L?

There are more cases of arranged marriages being trashed in GRRM's tale. Robb evaded having a Frey wife. The Queen of Thorns was not married into the House Targaryen. Honestly, the easiest one to accept is where the Handsome Prince rides up to the distressed Lady and offers her a way to avoid a betrothal that she does not want, by marrying him.

[Ser Creighton]

I am fake shiny?

I feel like I missed the majority of the last thread...are we still KG'ing?

Apparently we're still KG'ing

Whaaat? Fake shiny? No, no, no, my dear, you're just not true legit shiny. It's like Orphan black, you're like Rachel.

As for the KG, yes they are still talking about it, they best part of the last thread for me was avoiding it, and looking at people who constantly changed the argument and the story from the books. Oh the KG obeyed there vows, but they broke there vows, they were at the tower but were not at the tower, they were with Rhaegar when he took Lyanna, no they were not with him, no he was not with him and the KG took Lyanna, no she ran away to find Rhaegar because she didn't want to marry Robert and was abducted by someone else and Rhaegar rescued her, it was love, it was prophecy, it was part of each but mostly love, it was all love and all prophecy, it was about love but also the Prince who was promised who is also the King, Ned promised Jon who was a king but also a prince, the prince that was promised is all about balance, actually he isn't he is all about fire which is actually in the books, it's about a balanced dragon, it's about a fire dragon, it's about an ice dragon, Rhaegar read sun and moon so it's about water, no it's about the lightning fire ice water frozen fire dragon who was promised but it's also not about prophecy, Viserys was the king, no Jon was the King it was a secret none documented never mentioned deal in the books, Aerys was in on it, Aerys was not in on it, the KG were right, right about what? I don't know but if we throw darts at the board long enough we should hit something, I know what the KG, Rhaegar and Martn were thinking, they were thinking exactly what I want the story to be so lucky me, why use the text it's all about what I imagine things to be, they were Oathbreakers, no Oathkeepers, they swore a vow, but they didn't actually keep it, yes they did, they knew everything, they knew nothing, they new somethings as long as it agrees with the story I have made up in my head, Jaime says they were loyal, this may eventually be ironic, it's not going to be ironic because I say so, yeah but it actually could be, no it can't be, why? Because I say so. Yeah but Jaime who broke his vows actually did the right thing, no he didn't he should of let everyone burn, yeah but breaking of the vows was good, he still kept his Knight's vow to protect the innocent, he did not, the KG were super good and would only do perfect things Ned said so, No what Ned said was past tense so maybe they didn't, but he is talking about the past so maybe he did, yeah but Ned could be wrong? No he can't he is Ned and would never break his honor, historically speaking Ned has lied and broken his honor to do what was right, that does not count, Ned knew Jaime was bad bad, and the KG were perfect, yeah but Jaime wasn't bad soooooo? No doesn't count Jon is the Prince everything was perfect it's about love. I thought you siad he was the King, he is the Prince King who was promised, actually Lyanna was the one who was promised, whatever its' the same. If Jon is the Prince that was Promised why didn't the bird ever call him Prince? Cause the he is the King of Wessteros? What if the bird meant King of the Wildlings, or King in the North, or Night's King, or King Consort of Westeros? All of those but the last two and also the Prince that was promised. But the bird never said prince. The bird is confused. Maybe you're confused? Bed of blood, math, fever, fever dream, Benjen knows, but doesn't know, Bloodraven Knows but finds Bran more intresting, Dead Ghost, live Ghost, Lightbringer, Nightbringer, etc...

I think that pretty much sums up the last 52 threads or so.