Gala Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I do not want to interfere too much in this captivating debate about R+L's wedding (everybody could be right) but it seems to me that the real question is about Jon being a Royal Prince or not, not about Rhaegar and Lyanna being (lawfully) married. I find it interesting in this matter that both Elia and Arthur Dayne are Dornish, and the Dornish culture does not have a notion of legitimate / illegitimate children... Also the fact is that in most societies the bastard status only depends on the father officially acknowledging or not the paternity of the child, and this is even more true for a "King in waiting"... And I can see Rhaegar doing exactly that as soon as he knew Lyanna was pregnant? :agree: Additionally, he could legitimize Jon later, the way Daemon, Bittersteel, Bloodraven, Shiera etc were, the Great Bastards (Lyanna is not a commoner, she is daughter of a very old family, who used to be kings themselves). I think that it doesn't matter whether Jon is a bastard or not, if he indeed is promised and is one of the heads of a Dragon. He also could be raised close with his half-brother and half-sister. I remember BR making remark that he had "a brother he loved and a brother he hated", both of whom were his half-brothers (one of whom was a king, by the way, if I understand it right), which means he knew them well enough to love and hate. And as you have already said Rhaegar took Lyanna to Dorn and his wife was Dornish, and Dayne too. They have other "rules" considering bastards in Dorn, they are called something like "a product of love (or passion)". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 LV-- I agree with you (nice to able to do that on this thread) that it seems unlikely that Elia was in love with Rhaegar. Why would she be -- he clearly is not in love with her and she did not choose him. But the only glimpse we really get into their relationship directly is the HotU vision, which is not much. I get the sense from that scene that they were on good terms -- he trusts her with his thoughts regarding the prophecy. I also extrapolate from that exchange that Rhaegar would have gotten Elia on board with the second wife situation to create the third head of the dragon (yes, I know this is where I lose you). Assume Rhaegar follows up that conversation with a conversation that the world depends on him having a third child to complete the 3HD prophecy -- and so he needs to find a second wife to give him the third child (I think Rhaegar would not consider a bastard to be good enough to be a head of the dragon -- he was wrong about that, but I strongly suspect he would think the 3HD need to be legitimate children of his). What would Elia say? Would she say he was crazy for thinking he needed to cause the prophecy to be fulfilled? Even if she thought that -- she could never say that. So what could she do other than support Rhaegar's decision? She does not need to be thrilled with it, but under these circumstances, I think she would feel she has no choice but to relent. She would understand his motives were "pure" and that fighting him would make matters worse. So joining Team Dragon seems to be her best option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 UL, I've recently reread the passage on the vision and the vibe I get is the outset is a couple on good terms having a somewhat distant conversation. Elia asking Rhaegar if he'll make a song for their son does not suggest that they were particularly close on a day-to-day basis else she may not have needed to ask him. And later on Rhaegar seems to be talking to himself - and Daenerys, due to the magical nature of that vision (I'd say that the magical nature of the vision made it so that Rhaegar looked directly at Daenerys when he talked about 'another' - that is not Dany's interpretation). It is hard to tell what's going on usually with these two but Rhaegar does not appear to confide Elia in that whole prophecy stuff. Rhaegar only mentions 'the Song of Ice and Fire' when Elia asks her question about him writing a song - which seems to suggests that Elia had no clue that Rhaegar was actually expecting that Aegon was supposed to be this wonder child - in fact, it may even be that Elia had no idea about Rhaegar once believing he himself was the savior. Perhaps Rhaegar talked to her about all of that after the vision had ended, but I very much doubt Elia (or anyone with a rational mind) would have bought all that stuff Rhaegar apparently believed. Magic and prophecy aren't topics the usual maester-learned Westerosi noble took seriously. Elia believing Rhaegar's story 'I must take a second wife to save the world, and it must be that Stark girl I'm madly in love with since Harrenhal' strikes me about as likely as Joseph believing Mary's story that 'the Holy Ghost has impregnated me' if you get my meaning... Just ask yourself whether I as your husband/wife could get away with polygamy if I spoke about Judgment Day, magic, and prophecy (if so, I should possibly consider marrying you ;-)). Despite the fact that magic works in Westeros the average noble does not really believe in this kind of stuff, and Elia must really be stupid to buy any of that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Just ask yourself whether I as your husband/wife could get away with polygamy if I spoke about Judgment Day, magic, and prophecy (if so, I should possibly consider marrying you ;-)). Despite the fact that magic works in Westeros the average noble does not really believe in this kind of stuff, and Elia must really be stupid to buy any of that... Why? Was Rhaegar really stupid? No, far from it. Were his followers really stupid if they believed that Rhaegar might hold the key to saving the world? No. Is anyone who follows a charismatic leader stupid when they speak of the apocalypse, good vs evil battle, and saviors? If your answer to that question is yes, then I suggest you take a very serious look at the million--if not billions--of religiously inclined people in this world who believe and follow just that: a charismatic leader who claims to have the answers or the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 LV-- Rhaegar says to Elia, "He is the prince that was promised and he has a song, the song of ice and fire." That is more than just mentioning the song. That is confirming that Rhaegar believes Aegon is TPTWP. That statement makes more sense if Elia already knows what TPTWP means -- i..e, has some familiarity with the prophecy. And Elia does not need to believe in the prophecy to be convinced that Rhaegar believes in the prophecy. So when Rhaegar says he needs a new wife for the 3HD to be complete, Elia does not need to believe Rhaegar is correct in order to believe that Rhaegar is being genuine in his actions. And if Elia believes that Rhaegar really believes it is his duty to make sure that the prophecy is fulfilled, given the nature of that society, I have little doubt that she would feel obligated to support the decision (even if she was not really happy about it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Well, if those people follow somebody without a good reason then they are stupid, yes. Or I am, because I don't exploit people who are stupid enough to believe my lies. But that is not the point: Rhaegar isn't a religious leader, and I don't think we can describe him as a charismatic 'people person'. He was a melancholic loner and not exactly a guy who surrounded himself with followers and fans. And he didn't have any followers I'm aware of, either. Especially not Elia. He had good friends a few not so good friends. My point is if I was Elia Martell - that is, a reasonably well educted Dornish noblewoman - I'd not be inclined to believe that (1) my husband would tell me the truth if he suggested that he had to take another wife to save the world, and (2) without a good reason (i.e. a real visible threat etc.) I'd not be inclined to believe that the world needs saving. If I don't believe those two points I'd not be exactly happy with my husband's point of view that a light in the sky somehow proves that our son is the savior of the world - perhaps it was just a light in the sky...? Unless we have further evidence it is really condescending to assume that just because Elia was associated with Rhaegar/his wife that she also bought into or approved of his delusions/convictions. Especially not in the wake of Summerhall and all the other mad Targaryen episodes and endeavours. The whole history of the houses should provide anyone with eyes to see with ample proof that they are nutcases as nothing they ever believed in came to pass or worked the way they intended it work (the Doom thing excluded). Elia had no reason to believe that Rhaegar's beliefs were right even if he had told and explained his convictions to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Well, if those people follow somebody without a good reason then they are stupid, yes. Or I am, because I don't exploit people who are stupid enough to believe my lies. But that is not the point: Rhaegar isn't a religious leader, and I don't think we can describe him as a charismatic 'people person'. He was a melancholic loner and not exactly a guy who surrounded himself with followers and fans. And he didn't have any followers I'm aware of, either. Especially not Elia. He doesn't need to be a religious leader to be charismatic. Charisma is not localized to religion. Rhaegar had friends (followers) and devoted ones at that--friends who were willing to help him take down the king. Do you think Rhaegar bribed them? Do you think Rhaegar threatened them? Or do you think they did it because of a mix of Aerys growing insanity AND because Rhaegar inspired them to? Because they saw in Rhaegar a better leader, man, and king. He is described as a melancholic loner by someone who was not part of his inner circle. And yes he wasn't loud and boisterous like Robert Baratheon, but he was not without friends or companions. My point is if I was Elia Martell - that is, a reasonably well educted Dornish noblewoman - I'd not be inclined to believe that (1) my husband would tell me the truth if he suggested that he had to take another wife to save the world, and (2) without a good reason (i.e. a real visible threat etc.) I'd not be inclined to believe that the world needs saving. Education automatically means that you can't believe in end of the world, prophecy, magic...? Because I'm fairly certain that Rhaegar was equally if not more educated being the crown prince and all. Did Rhaegar have a real viable threat? No. But he did have some sort of prophecy, textual evidence. Something tangible that you can show someone. I'd also stress that we know very little about Elia's own religious convictions and what she believed and how fervently. Simply dismissing the possibility that she would have been prophetically and religiously inclined because she was educated is ludercrious given that many people in ASOIAF are equally educated and religious--even if that religion doesn't include any sort of prophecy for the end of the world. Unless we have further evidence it is really condescending to assume that just because Elia was associated with Rhaegar/his wife that she also bought into or approved of his delusions/convictions It's also really condescending to assume that Elia couldn't have believed in magic and prophecy and saving the world simply because she was educated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted April 8, 2015 Author Share Posted April 8, 2015 No matter if I was Princess Elia or a kingsguard or basically anyone else: Given the choice between Aerys II's burn-them-madness and Rhaegar's save-the-world-obsession, I'd know what to chose. Unless, of course, I had been a real dragon and fireproof, but they came 16-15 years late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Unless, of course, I had been a real dragon and fireproof, but they came 16-15 years late. Damn them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Well, but isn't it factually the case that the educated people of Westeros - due to the fact that they were educated by maesters - were, in fact, not exactly believing in prophecy and magic? Why should we then believe that Elia was eager to believe in such stuff when we have no shred of evidence that this is the case. Dorne is also much more liberal/less pious then other regions in which the Faith holds sway, so it is quite unlikely that Elia was more religiously inclined than, say, Doran or Oberyn. Targaryens tend to inspire loyalty but the average man - Jorah, for instance - don't necessarily buy all that crazy stuff they also believe. I know Rhaegar had friends and all, he was the Crown Prince. But this does not mean that he actually shared his beliefs with any of them but those he trusted the most. Nothing suggests that Jon Connington knows that Rhaegar believed that Aegon is the promised prince or that he believes this himself. If Rhaegar didn't tell Jon he may have been much equally close-mouthed around Elia and others - especially regarding his intention to marry Elia. I imagine if Elia had known about that she would have tried to stop Rhaegar, forewarned Doran what was about to happen, or tried to reach out to the Starks/Baratheons to take steps to prevent the abduction that things could not get out of hand. That would have been the responsible thing to do. Hell, she could even have tried to reach out to Aerys and Rhaella about this. We would really have to imagine Elia as a version of the TV-show Selyse - who is actually happy that Stannis has sex with Melisandre. But this only works in Selyse's pious mindset. Even a noblewoman who is not all that much into her husband - which Elia might have been - should not be overly eager to share him with another wife in a polygamous marriage as this would be slight to her pride as a princess of Dorne. Not to mention that Lyanna and her children would be a direct threat to her status as future queen as well as to her children in regards to the succession - whether Rhaegar wanted it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 There seems to be a rather large split amongst the maesters between those who believed in the power of magic, and prophecy, and those who didn't. Archmaester Marwyn and Maester Aemon would be among those highly educated people of the Citadel who believe in the "higher mysteries," so it is not true that we can assume by education that Elia, or anyone else, would not believe in the power of prophecy. It is interesting to note that it appears Elia's niece, Sarella, is a member of the camp of highly educated who believe in the power of magic. Doesn't positively prove anything about what Elia believed, but it might indicate the family was not dyed-in-the-wool non-believers. Just too little information to go on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avalatis Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I don't know if there is a specific passage, but i think Elia cared a great deal for Rhaegar. It wasn't the romantic and sexual love R and L had for each other, but rather love for him as a good prince, a good ruler, and a good father and partner. I think Elia knew quite a bit about what R was up to WRT Aerys (like, the Red Viper being at HH). I also don't think she wished ill on R for "leaving her" (if she didn't suspect or full on know what was going on with RL). So let us assume Elia was in on the plot. Why didn't Rhaegar take her with him into hiding? Was she tasked to do something that required her to be in Kingslanding? Or was it better that she look innocent of what Rhaegar was doing (such as she was a victim instead of a Dornish conspirator)? Why are the Dornish so pro-Targaryen? It seems that Rhaegar slighting them and Aerys insane acts should have made them very much dislike the Targaryen dynasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 LV-- I agree with you (nice to able to do that on this thread) that it seems unlikely that Elia was in love with Rhaegar. Why would she be -- he clearly is not in love with her and she did not choose him. But the only glimpse we really get into their relationship directly is the HotU vision, which is not much. I get the sense from that scene that they were on good terms -- he trusts her with his thoughts regarding the prophecy. I also extrapolate from that exchange that Rhaegar would have gotten Elia on board with the second wife situation to create the third head of the dragon (yes, I know this is where I lose you). Assume Rhaegar follows up that conversation with a conversation that the world depends on him having a third child to complete the 3HD prophecy -- and so he needs to find a second wife to give him the third child (I think Rhaegar would not consider a bastard to be good enough to be a head of the dragon -- he was wrong about that, but I strongly suspect he would think the 3HD need to be legitimate children of his). What would Elia say? Would she say he was crazy for thinking he needed to cause the prophecy to be fulfilled? Even if she thought that -- she could never say that. So what could she do other than support Rhaegar's decision? She does not need to be thrilled with it, but under these circumstances, I think she would feel she has no choice but to relent. She would understand his motives were "pure" and that fighting him would make matters worse. So joining Team Dragon seems to be her best option. UL, I've recently reread the passage on the vision and the vibe I get is the outset is a couple on good terms having a somewhat distant conversation. Elia asking Rhaegar if he'll make a song for their son does not suggest that they were particularly close on a day-to-day basis else she may not have needed to ask him. And later on Rhaegar seems to be talking to himself - and Daenerys, due to the magical nature of that vision (I'd say that the magical nature of the vision made it so that Rhaegar looked directly at Daenerys when he talked about 'another' - that is not Dany's interpretation). It is hard to tell what's going on usually with these two but Rhaegar does not appear to confide Elia in that whole prophecy stuff. Rhaegar only mentions 'the Song of Ice and Fire' when Elia asks her question about him writing a song - which seems to suggests that Elia had no clue that Rhaegar was actually expecting that Aegon was supposed to be this wonder child - in fact, it may even be that Elia had no idea about Rhaegar once believing he himself was the savior. Perhaps Rhaegar talked to her about all of that after the vision had ended, but I very much doubt Elia (or anyone with a rational mind) would have bought all that stuff Rhaegar apparently believed. Magic and prophecy aren't topics the usual maester-learned Westerosi noble took seriously. Elia believing Rhaegar's story 'I must take a second wife to save the world, and it must be that Stark girl I'm madly in love with since Harrenhal' strikes me about as likely as Joseph believing Mary's story that 'the Holy Ghost has impregnated me' if you get my meaning... Just ask yourself whether I as your husband/wife could get away with polygamy if I spoke about Judgment Day, magic, and prophecy (if so, I should possibly consider marrying you ;-)). Despite the fact that magic works in Westeros the average noble does not really believe in this kind of stuff, and Elia must really be stupid to buy any of that... While not in the text- yet, we are getting some information from the show to the new media piece that Pedro Pascal narrated that says Elia did love him. Either way, if take the example from one of the largest intitutions of polygamy, the Ottoman harem, the nursery could be an adders pit of political intrigue and strife. And we also know that the Court of Sunspear was not exactly free from danger either so the Martells were not necessarily into sharing the political weatth. As is the case for women who do come from cultures with the expectation of having their own rights, or honor, its actually more likely that Elia did NOT go along with whatever was going on and either did, after so many insults from Aerys, particularly in regards to her children, march up to KL and demand justice, or tried to leave DS on her own and was captured by Aerys men. Why? Was Rhaegar really stupid? No, far from it. Were his followers really stupid if they believed that Rhaegar might hold the key to saving the world? No. Is anyone who follows a charismatic leader stupid when they speak of the apocalypse, good vs evil battle, and saviors? If your answer to that question is yes, then I suggest you take a very serious look at the million--if not billions--of religiously inclined people in this world who believe and follow just that: a charismatic leader who claims to have the answers or the way. I respect your feelings on this matter, and its not that I'm not unspiritual myself, however I have to harken back to my sunday school lessons as a child, and what my dad and aunt use to tell me. I was taught that it was actually sacreligious to seek "prophesy," fortune tellers, or even read a horoscope because as humans, we are not meant to know our future, thus our end, or that is all we would be preoccupied with, rather than living. I was aware of appocolyptic prophesies such as Revelations, but only to understand falsehoods from "truths," to understand the difference between a Mother Teresa and a Jim Jones, and "preppers" would be considered fanatics, so I hope that Rhaegar was not a "prepper." My dad put it to me like this: The "boss" can come in through the back of the building anytime and surprise you. If your running your business correctly and doing whats right everyday, your gold, but if not, you might lose your job. Be prepared by being a decent person, but not live everyday wondering if he/she going to walk through the door. And though I'm not Roman Catholic as Martin used to be, I suspect these cautionary tales of "fanatacism" and trying to divine the future are Martins point, and that is why I'm a bit cautious when it comes to Rhaegars character and whatever capacity of prophesy he might have been involved in. If Jon is who he is, he likely was conceived at a time when Rhaegar was actually living, maybe for the first time in his life, and the Tower of Joy sounds like he was living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 So let us assume Elia was in on the plot. Why didn't Rhaegar take her with him into hiding? Was she tasked to do something that required her to be in Kingslanding? Or was it better that she look innocent of what Rhaegar was doing (such as she was a victim instead of a Dornish conspirator)? Why are the Dornish so pro-Targaryen? It seems that Rhaegar slighting them and Aerys insane acts should have made them very much dislike the Targaryen dynasty. I don't know if they are so much pro-Targ as they are anti-Lannister? If Doran and Oberyn didn't know the full extent of Elia and R's relationship (ie: if she knew what was going on between R and L and her emotions ranged from cold acceptance to warm acceptance) then all Rhaegar is guilty of is running off with another woman, something that is abhorrent but not necessarily a crime without precedent in Westoers. It wasn't Aerys nor Rhaegar who ordered the death of Elia and her kids. I respect your feelings on this matter, and its not that I'm not unspiritual myself, however I have to harken back to my sunday school lessons as a child, and what my dad and aunt use to tell me. I was taught that it was actually sacreligious to seek "prophesy," fortune tellers, or even read a horoscope because as humans, we are not meant to know our future, thus our end, or that is all we would be preoccupied with, rather than living. I was aware of appocolyptic prophesies such as Revelations, but only to understand falsehoods from "truths," to understand the difference between a Mother Teresa and a Jim Jones, and "preppers" would be considered fanatics. Well, I'm neither spiritual nor religious at all. Kind of an Atheist, for the most part. But I also know that belief isn't something that is rational and logical. There is a suggestion from Lord Varys in this thread that education and being brought up by people who were equally educated and more liberal somehow means that Elia couldn't be religiously inclined herself. I call that poppycock. Elia could make her own choices and have her own beliefs and none of it would have been logical or rational because faith isn't about hard textual evidence or seeing something and suddenly believing. It's about belief. Elia could have very well been just as fanatical as Rhaegar all on her own, without having to check in with Dorne or her early childhood Maesters to see it if was okay first. Simply saying that Elia cannot be religious or have any tendencies toward that simply because 1) educated 2) Dornish and 3) Oberyn and Doran aren't is just silly, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avalatis Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 There seems to be a rather large split amongst the maesters between those who believed in the power of magic, and prophecy, and those who didn't. Archmaester Marwyn and Maester Aemon would be among those highly educated people of the Citadel who believe in the "higher mysteries," so it is not true that we can assume by education that Elia, or anyone else, would not believe in the power of prophecy. It is interesting to note that it appears Elia's niece, Sarella, is a member of the camp of highly educated who believe in the power of magic. Doesn't positively prove anything about what Elia believed, but it might indicate the family was not dyed-in-the-wool non-believers. Just too little information to go on here. Yeah if I recall the Maesters had a specific link made for studying the arcane arts. It was not common, but it did occur. It might be me projecting Christianity onto the faith of the 7, but it seems they saw magic as taboo (which would be why they avoided it so much). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I don't know if they are so much pro-Targ as they are anti-Lannister? If Doran and Oberyn didn't know the full extent of Elia and R's relationship (ie: if she knew what was going on between R and L and her emotions ranged from cold acceptance to warm acceptance) then all Rhaegar is guilty of is running off with another woman, something that is abhorrent but not necessarily a crime without precedent in Westoers. It wasn't Aerys nor Rhaegar who ordered the death of Elia and her kids. Well, I'm neither spiritual nor religious at all. Kind of an Atheist, for the most part. But I also know that belief isn't something that is rational and logical. There is a suggestion from Lord Varys in this thread that education and being brought up by people who were equally educated and more liberal somehow means that Elia couldn't be religiously inclined herself. I call that poppycock. Elia could make her own choices and have her own beliefs and none of it would have been logical or rational because faith isn't about hard textual evidence or seeing something and suddenly believing. It's about belief. Elia could have very well been just as fanatical as Rhaegar all on her own, without having to check in with Dorne or her early childhood Maesters to see it if was okay first. Simply saying that Elia cannot be religious or have any tendencies toward that simply because 1) educated 2) Dornish and 3) Oberyn and Doran aren't is just silly, IMO.Elia may have indeed been religious and it was said that when Oberyn was killed, the Septs in Dorne were filled to overflowing.But as is the case with most religions, she might have had a different interpretation, or she might have had a "live-and-let-live" POV, a view that fanaticism does not breed, which is why I have always felt it would be a bit creepy if she was "in on it," because we don't know that Lyanna was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Yeah if I recall the Maesters had a specific link made for studying the arcane arts. It was not common, but it did occur. It might be me projecting Christianity onto the faith of the 7, but it seems they saw magic as taboo (which would be why they avoided it so much). Or the Maesters might have represented the struggle between "science" and religion, as in "The Age of Reason." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Avalatis, Elia was on Dragonstone when Rhaegar left her, not in KL. It is also very likely that she couldn't go anywhere even if she had wanted to as it is stated that Aegon's birth 'nearly killed' her, suggesting that she was not up to a sea voyage shortly after that. The Martells aren't necessarily pro-Targaryen. Doran Martell tried to use Viserys and Daenerys as tool to get his revenge. Restoring the Targaryens to the Iron Throne is a means to an end, not the end. Or perhaps sort of the end as another Targaryen-Martell couple on the Iron Throne would be a perfect way to celebrate the victory over the Lannister-Baratheons. Alia, I'd heavily emphasize the possibility that 'the Tower of Joy' thing strongly suggests that prophecy wasn't as important to Rhaegar than his own feelings and desires. BQ87, it is possible that Elia was deeply religious and believed in magic. Perhaps she also liked pink underwear ;-). But we don't know yet. The usual impression we get from Dorne as well as the the average educated noble is that they are not deeply religious but rather secular or atheist. But even if she was religious or into magic this does not mean that she would necessarily believe in Rhaegar's interpretation of the prophecy. That was my point. Even a wife inclined to believe stuff like that would sort of second-guess the sincerity of her husband's convinctions if he ended saying 'prophecy demands that I take a second wife'. Especially if the one second wife 'prophecy has chosen for him' happens to a girl Rhaegar's libido suggests to him, too (and Elia knew that this was the case from Harrenhal). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 No matter if I was Princess Elia or a kingsguard or basically anyone else: Given the choice between Aerys II's burn-them-madness and Rhaegar's save-the-world-obsession, I'd know what to chose. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Avalatis, Elia was on Dragonstone when Rhaegar left her, not in KL. It is also very likely that she couldn't go anywhere even if she had wanted to as it is stated that Aegon's birth 'nearly killed' her, suggesting that she was not up to a sea voyage shortly after that. The Martells aren't necessarily pro-Targaryen. Doran Martell tried to use Viserys and Daenerys as tool to get his revenge. Restoring the Targaryens to the Iron Throne is a means to an end, not the end. Or perhaps sort of the end as another Targaryen-Martell couple on the Iron Throne would be a perfect way to celebrate the victory over the Lannister-Baratheons. Alia, I'd heavily emphasize the possibility that 'the Tower of Joy' thing strongly suggests that prophecy wasn't as important to Rhaegar than his own feelings and desires. BQ87, it is possible that Elia was deeply religious and believed in magic. Perhaps she also liked pink underwear ;-). But we don't know yet. The usual impression we get from Dorne as well as the the average educated noble is that they are not deeply religious but rather secular or atheist. But even if she was religious or into magic this does not mean that she would necessarily believe in Rhaegar's interpretation of the prophecy. That was my point. Even a wife inclined to believe stuff like that would sort of second-guess the sincerity of her husband's convinctions if he ended saying 'prophecy demands that I take a second wife'. Especially if the one second wife 'prophecy has chosen for him' happens to a girl Rhaegar's libido suggests to him, too (and Elia knew that this was the case from Harrenhal). Good point on the Martells, in Pascals reading, he made it sound more like it was about giving their word and loyalty as a matter of integrity as much as tying them to power. But, we do see that the Martells are willing to bind themselves to the Lannisters/Berathaeons as well for power, unless they plan to do something really horrible to Myrcella. I have always felt that Dorans long term plan was to go solo in their own right in terms of power instead of being attached to someone for power. As for what the Westerosi aristocracy believe, as in real history there has always been that mentality that they were an extention of the "divine," and didn't often follow the same religious devotion as the "small folk." Even Robb scoffed at old Nans tales, and Tyrions snarky mocking of snarks was rather cyncial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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