R+L=J v.138

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yeah but the PTWP prophecy is, as of yet, unfulfilled, whether the Targaryens' survival is a proven fact (and all the other Valyrians who had thought them nutcases went boom).

Oh, agreed. The point is that Rhaegar was not alone in following prophecy -- the Targaryens have a long history, as recent as the marriage of Rhaegar's parents. The point I was trying to make is that Elia would know that Rhaegar was not "faking" his belief in prophecy as an excuse to run off with Lyanna. LV (and perhaps others) were suggesting that the prophecy "excuse" would likely come across to Elia as a trumped up story to justify running off with another woman. The story of Jaehaerys forcing his children to marry each other due to a prophecy he heard adds credibility to Rhaegar acting the way he acts out of a genuine belief in prophecy. Elia would know about the story of Rhaegar's parents (most likely) and how Rhaegar's grandfather responded to a prophecy he heard about -- so Elia would be more likely to believe Rhaegar also was acting out of a genuine belief in prophecy and not a desire to have an excuse to run off and marry another woman.

[Lord Varys]

Well, this is not so easy. Elia could also consider that Jaehaerys II was 'as mad as his son' for forcing his son and daughter marry each other due to something some woods witch told him. I guess this was the general take on this whole thing, anyway. Yandel would not be this dismissive of the Ghost if the whole court of Aegon V had welcomed the notion of Prince Jaehaerys to force his children into an early incestuous marriage, and would have followed his (or been convinced by) his 'reasoning'. Even Egg - who very much believed in magic, prophecy, and the return of the dragons - seems to have been unhappy with that and could not understand it.

In fact, there is a good chance that Summerhall had nothing to do with the promised prince prophecy at all, and Egg considered Jaehaerys/Aemon to be nutcases for believing into that crap. He believed he could bring the dragons back and did, for all we know, not believe that he was the promised prince. That could should be telling.

Back to the Elia thing:

Why would she want to break with Rhaegar over the polygamy issue? Because she was a Princess of Dorne and some pride in her, perhaps? Why do you think Lord Lyonel made such a fuzz about a broken marriage contract? Why did Walder Frey turn on Robb after he broke his marriage contract? Not to mention that Elia would have to suffer a second wife, a rival at her husband's side. The idea that any noblewoman in Westeros would suffer this is a big stretch. And we know that both Rhaenys and Visenya were rivals as well as sisters, and it is pretty obvious that Maegor's wives also competed for their husband, influence, power.

It was widely known that Elia was frail and sickly all her life. Tywin apparently waited for her death to offer Cersei to Rhaegar - again. Elia should have been aware of her health issues and should have been terribly afraid what would happen to her children after her premature death if Rhaegar took a second wife (even before her death). All King Rhaegar I had to do is name the 'Southron ambitions' father of his beloved second wife his Hand, and Otto-Rickard and Alicent-Lyanna would see to it that their blood and not Elia's ended on the Iron Throne.

My take on this whole thing is not one-dimensional:

I find it convincing that

- Elia might not have believed in prophecy at all, and thus would not have accepted Rhaegar talking about prophecy as 'a reason' for polygamy ('That's nonsense!')

- Elia may have believed in/not been dismissive of magic, and entertained the idea that some prophecies might be true, but she may not have believed in that particular prophecy or Rhaegar's interpretation ('That's not a sign, it is a comet! You are unreasonable!').

- Elia may have believed in prophecy but not have bought Rhaegar's reasoning as to why he wanted to marry Lyanna ('You are not interpreting prophecy here, you are thinking with your cock!')

- Elia may have believed everything Rhaegar told her, but this doesn't necessitate that she actually approved of his plans and subsequent actions. ('I'm not going along with this crap!')

I'm not willing (or cannot) deduce from the tidbits we know about Elia that she would actually be nothing but Rhaegar's little empty-headed follower who would go with everything he said even if he suggested something as outrageous as polygamy.

It would make more sense to assume that she did not know anything about Rhaegar's plans - perhaps, because he did not yet know what he was going to do before he did it as I've suggested with the Ghost scenario. In fact, it could also make sense that Rhaegar did not yet know that he would marry Lyanna when he abducted her. Perhaps this was only an outgrowth of their passion just as Robb only married Jeyne Westerling after he deflowered her?

[Ygrain]

Oh, agreed. The point is that Rhaegar was not alone in following prophecy -- the Targaryens have a long history, as recent as the marriage of Rhaegar's parents. The point I was trying to make is that Elia would know that Rhaegar was not "faking" his belief in prophecy as an excuse to run off with Lyanna. LV (and perhaps others) were suggesting that the prophecy "excuse" would likely come across to Elia as a trumped up story to justify running off with another woman. The story of Jaehaerys forcing his children to marry each other due to a prophecy he heard adds credibility to Rhaegar acting the way he acts out of a genuine belief in prophecy. Elia would know about the story of Rhaegar's parents (most likely) and how Rhaegar's grandfather responded to a prophecy he heard about -- so Elia would be more likely to believe Rhaegar also was acting out of a genuine belief in prophecy and not a desire to have an excuse to run off and marry another woman.

Ah, I see. So Elia would know that Rhaegar's belief is both valid and genuine.

[Ser Creighton]

What did Elia think of prophecy? Well I can tell this there is next to no information about it in the books. Now did she know about Rhaegar and his prophecy quests? I think it is safe to say yes. Did she believe them? Well if you hand pick what she would of thought you can get what ever answer you are looking for.

The Targaryen that predicted the doom, Daenys Targaryen, well that happened over 300 years ago and may be more of a tale to some people who are not Targaryen.

Egg, oh was he following Prophecy when he died at Summerhall, well that probably would not convince her it is a good thing. Had the Wood witch prophecy worked out well for the Targaryens to date? Well not really, most of them died.

Was if working out well for Rhaegar?

Rhaegar: Honey I am the Prince that was promised and mine is the song of ice and fire.

Elia: Well that is great peaches.

Rhaegar: Honey, you are not going to believe this, Aegon is the prince that was promised and his is the song of ice and fire. I saw a shooting star, and poof magic baby.

Elia: I thought you were the Prince that was promised?

Rhaegar: Ooops

Elia: Ok well have fun with your prophecy, try not to get our child killed, or to get in trouble.

Rhaegar: Ummmmm I need to have sex with another woman to produce another magic baby.

Elia: You know I am from Dorne and it is ok if you want to have sex with other woman, men, whatever. but please don't make stupid excuses.

Rhaegar: It's not an excuse, it's the prophecy of the Prince that was promised, the Dragon must have 3 heads.

Elia: I thought Aegon was the Prince.

Rhaegar: He is.

Elia: Then why do you need another child?

Rhaegar: Ummmm to be the prince that was promised, the dragon must have 3 heads.

Elia: How many Targs are in KL?

Rhaegar: It's not like that, they have to be my children.

Elia: Says who?

Rhaegar: I? I? I? You see... The Wood Witch said the Prince would be born from my parents, so it has to be my kids.

Elia: Not really following here, so the wood witch said that your parents would give birth to the Prince? So you thought you were the prince. But then you realized it must be your kids and not you? So I gave birth to the Prince that was promised. Your own words again mind you, and now the Dragon must have 3 heads and you need another baby to be the Prince, even though you have the prince after you decided you were not the Prince? Just exactly when did you even figure out you were not the Prince?

Rhaegar: I don't know when I realized I was not the Prince, probably Maggy the frog.

Elia: Oh the frog told you, you were not the Prince?

Rhaegar: She is a person, who is a frog, and a Prophet.

Elia: Oh another Prophet, so you have the wood witch and now Mags the Toad.

Rhaegar: Frog.

Elia: Anyone else?

Rhaegar: Maybe the Ghost of high heart.

Elia: Maybe a Ghost?

Rhaegar: Yeah maybe, have you read the books? This shit is tough to figure out. Oh crap!

Elia: What?

Rhaegar: I may or may not have just seen a Targaryen princess and she has a black and red dragon on her shoulder, but I am not sure.

Elia: Oh lovely, now he is seeing things.

Rhaegar: I said maybe.

Elia: Peaches, have you met your father?

Rhaegar: Yeah, what about him?

Elia: Do you think maybe there is something wrong with him, like maybe something that runs in the family from time to time?

Rhaegar: You think my dad is having visions? Good call maybe he knows who the prince is.

Elia: That's not what I meant.

Rhaegar: Are talking about our amazing sliver gold hair or our stunning purple eyes?

Elia: No...

Rhaegar: Well if it is not our amazing beauty, and not our prophectic ability, what else could it be?

Elia: You know the madness, the coin flip.

Rhaegar: What? Really? I mean you really want to go there? Ok yes my dad is a bit eccentric, but KL can do that to you, and ok there have been 1 or 2 others who may have had some issues, but I mean come on. It's not like we are the Boltons. I mean really all I want to do is go make another magic baby with another woman so I can have a matching set colletion of magic babies, because Aegon is the Prince that I was suppose to be until a frog may or may not have told me I wasn't, and a Ghost may also have said something to me, because the prince is suppose to come from my parents line, and so I guess that can mean my line as well, though apperantly any woman will do as long as it has the Rhaegar' magic sperm invloved. So while yes I probably should depose my father, I happen to feel very strongly that it is magic baby making time, and this time I am bound to get it right, because the magic baby collection has 3 heads, and I may or may not have seen this really pretty Targaryen girl with a dragon, but I am not certain so instead of taking care of my father like I planned, I am going to maybe vanish for a time. Like maybe around 18 months to 2 years, and in the mean time I am leaving the guy I think is cra... eccentric incharge. How is that a crazy plan?

Elia: And what girl do you plan on making this baby with?

Rhaegar: Lyanna Stark

Elia: Ummmm honey she is betrothed to Robert Baratheon, you know that huge dude with the giant Warhammer who likes to kill shit, and doesn't like people touching his stuff.

Rhaegar: What? No worries me and Robert are cousins I am sure he will be fine with it, he totally loves me.

Elia: Oh lord what are you talking about? He does not love you, he is totally gay for Ned. Ned Stark in all is reliable, honest, responsible, loyal, man in all his northern glory. Mmmmmm Ned.

Rhaegar: What?

Elia: Nothing, just how exactly do intend to explain this to her father?

Rhaegar: Explain? I just thought I would take her.

Elia: Oh fuck, we're all going to die.

Rhaegar: What? No trust me everything will be fine. It's magic baby making time, I can't believe I am finally going to have the entire Prince that was promised sacred dragon collection. But before I take her, I think I will vanish for awhile.

Elia: Yeah good luck with that, you know maybe me and the kids will go visit Dorne.

Rhaegar: What? No, you have to stay here, I will be the one visiting Dorne. Going to make a little what what with the new love of my life Laura Stork.

Elia: Lyanna Stark

Rhaegar: Whatever, magic baby collection eeeeeeeeeeeeee! I am so excited.

Jaime: How is everything going your grace'

Elia: "OMG" hey Jaime, what's up? How is your sister, want to trade?

Jaime: What?

Elia: Nothing.

Arthur: Hey, so you ready Rhaegar?

Elia: Hey Arthur, you gorgeous piece of KG ass, you want to go be Dornish together?

Arthur: Your grace?

Elia: Did I say that out loud? Never mind, my life sucks.

Rhaegar: Honey don't worry, I just knighted Ser Gregor, the Mountain that rides, he is totally going to protect you if anything goes down. Look at him he is huge and totally trust worthy.

Elia: I am dead, d e a d, dead!

Aerys: Burn them, burn them all, hehehehehehehe.

Gregor: Rape murder kill, rape.

Tywin: I would totally not plot anything.

Varys: Don't worry your Grace I have a bottle of wine I will trade for a baby and then baby swap the Prince that was promised with a child from KL. It's a great plan.

Elia: Oh yeah thanks for this mom, "Oh wait till you see Rhaegar he is som handsome and KL will be so much fun. You are going to love it." Next time just put a gun in my mouth mom.

Rhaegar: Later honey I am off to make Westeros a better place.

Elia: Eat a dick!

JonCon: Has anyone volunteered to help Rhaegar with this? Because I pretty sure my hand was up first.

Elia: WTF did I ever do to anyone? I bet I could of married Ned beefcake Stark and I get this steaming pile. Just, you know fuck Martin, well at least my beloved brother is safe.

[sj4iy]

Back to the Elia thing:

Why would she want to break with Rhaegar over the polygamy issue? Because she was a Princess of Dorne and some pride in her, perhaps? Why do you think Lord Lyonel made such a fuzz about a broken marriage contract? Why did Walder Frey turn on Robb after he broke his marriage contract? Not to mention that Elia would have to suffer a second wife, a rival at her husband's side. The idea that any noblewoman in Westeros would suffer this is a big stretch. And we know that both Rhaenys and Visenya were rivals as well as sisters, and it is pretty obvious that Maegor's wives also competed for their husband, influence, power.

Polygamy ≠ divorce or even a broken marriage contract. I don't know why people keep insisting that they are similar in consequences, because they aren't in any way.

She would STILL be the first wife. Her children would STILL be first in line for the thrones.

Does that mean she has to like it? Of course not. But a polygamous marriage is not near as likely to cause political rifts as a broken marriage contract or a divorce will. Elia doesn't lose her station, her children don't lose theirs, and Dorne still has direct connection to the Iron Throne in the future. As long as they have that, I don't see them risking any kind of war.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Ygrain--

Yes, the dreamer prophecy shows that prophecies can be fulfilled (showing that Rhaegar's belief in prophecy was reasonable) and the woods witch prophecy shows that Targs to this day still feel compelled to follow prophecy (showing that Rhaegar's belief in prophecy likely was genuine).

sj4iy--

Glad to see you have not stuff strictly to your hiatus (but I guess technically, the show has not started yet). I agree 100% with your analysis regarding the distinction between polygamy and divorce/broken marriage contract.

LV--

I think you still are avoiding answering my basic point -- Elia loses much more than she gains by objecting to Rhaegar's second marriage. Yes, Elia might have thought all of the things that you suggested that she thought. And maybe her emotions would get the better of her and she would work against Rhaegar. But as sj4iy points out, there is a big difference here than the situations you cited. Lionnel and Frey had nothing to lose by showing anger and retribution. The marriage contracts would have given them benefits they did not get, but objecting did not really risk them losing more -- they already lost what they could lose by the breaking of the contracts.

Elia had a lot to lose by objecting to the second marriage -- her position as the future Queen of Westeros. As to her being sick, even more reason to go along, as she might not be around much longer to stand up for her children and certainly cannot avoid a second marriage after her death. So trying to establish a good situation for her children before she died would make going along with Rhaegar's plans even more important, not less. What could Elia possibly benefit by objecting or creating problems for Rhaegar and Lyanna?

[Avalatis]

Polygamy ≠ divorce or even a broken marriage contract. I don't know why people keep insisting that they are similar in consequences, because they aren't in any way.

She would STILL be the first wife. Her children would STILL be first in line for the thrones.

Does that mean she has to like it? Of course not. But a polygamous marriage is not near as likely to cause political rifts as a broken marriage contract or a divorce will. Elia doesn't lose her station, her children don't lose theirs, and Dorne still has direct connection to the Iron Throne in the future. As long as they have that, I don't see them risking any kind of war.

I'm not sure being the first wife really matters. Her children being older matters, well at least Aegon. I agree that she still has position.

[Jô Maltese]

Snip

Ser, this is f... brilliant! :lol: I am sure GRRM himself would love it.

[IceFire125]

Big R+L=J hints from TIME's 4 episode review! DON'T READ if you want to wait until the episodes air.

http://time.com/3767866/game-of-thrones-season-5-review/

It's hidden behind blurred texts.

(Disclaimer: I’ve seen four episodes of the season; there’s no telling what might come up later.) But there are also a few elements I’m pleasantly surprised the show has retained–including info dumps about Rheagar and Lyanna, Maester Qyburn’s weird-science research, and a nod to popular theories about Jon Snow’s parentage.

[MtnLion]

Polygamy ≠ divorce or even a broken marriage contract. I don't know why people keep insisting that they are similar in consequences, because they aren't in any way.

They really should know that resistance is futile, they will be assimilated. ;)

[Ser Creighton]

Big R+L=J hints from TIME's 4 episode review! DON'T READ if you want to wait until the episodes air.

http://time.com/3767866/game-of-thrones-season-5-review/

It's hidden behind blurred texts.

(Disclaimer: I’ve seen four episodes of the season; there’s no telling what might come up later.) But there are also a few elements I’m pleasantly surprised the show has retained–including info dumps about Rheagar and Lyanna, Maester Qyburn’s weird-science research, and a nod to popular theories about Jon Snow’s parentage.

Thanks, glad to hear the season is shaping up and can't wait for the R+L=J stuff.

[JonSnow4President]

Only 3 more days!!!! I can hardly contain myself (this will be the first season I've read through the available source material completely before the season).

[sj4iy]

I'm not sure being the first wife really matters. Her children being older matters, well at least Aegon. I agree that she still has position.

In politics and royalty, that kind of thing absolutely matters.

[markg171]

I'm not sure being the first wife really matters. Her children being older matters, well at least Aegon. I agree that she still has position.

That was only the case with Aegon because he married both sisters at the same time. There was no first and second wife in his marriage, just two wives. In which case then, whoever had a son first was where the succession would flow through.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Would the fact that Doran was very slow to lend aid to the Targaryens, only sending men when Rhaegar returned from the south, be a suggestion that Elia became Aerys' hostage only shortly before Rhaegar's return (or possibly only after)?

[Lord Varys]

Polygamy:

Polygamy should be considered much worse than a broken marriage contract as it clearly is a violation of the marriage contract as well as a personal humiliation to the spouse involved. Polygamous marriages aren't custom in Westeros. They are either forbidden or highly unusual. If a noblewoman agrees to marry a prince she can reasonably expect to be his only wife. A broken marriage contract is just 'not going through with a promise' not the actual breaking of a marriage - which polygamy sort of is as the spouses should swear each other a vow that the other is their only one. In that, it is much worse than taking a paramour or mistress as such a woman/man can never have the status and rank of a wife/husband whereas a second wife/husband obviously has that rank.

In that sense polygamy should be the ultimate humiliation both in Westeros as well as in real world countries where you do not expect such a thing - imagine you are the Princess of Wales expecting to become queen one day and then your husband takes another because, well, his ancestors once did such a thing.

We see how Ceryse Hightower and her family react to Maegor taking a second wife. Why on earth should Elia react differently?

The idea that Elia would have been anything but the target of mockery at the court of Rhaegar I is also not very convincing. Why would Elia want to be 'a queen' of Westeros if Lyanna would be there, too? She would have been the queen Rhaegar loved not Elia. Lyanna would have been the one controlling Rhaegar, and she would have considered Elia an obstacle/a rival for Rhaegar's affections. Elia could only gain rank, status, and honor by abandoning Rhaegar and returning to Dorne. By sticking to him she should have been 'the wife who likes to be fucked by her husband in the not-so-nice-way' to put it mildly. She would have been even more ridiculous than Cassella Vaith.

Prophecy:

Daenys the Dreamer and Rhaegar/later Targaryens are different. Daenys herself had prophetic dreams and interpreted at least one of them correctly. Rhaegar had - as far as we know - no prophetic dreams of his own he merely interpreted ancient texts and 'signs' he believed he saw or experienced. That's not exactly reliable. More importantly, the Targaryen history shows many cases in which both prophetic dreams and strong convictions led to catastrophes and failures - Daemon II Blackfyre, Daeron the Drunk, Aerion Brightflame, Aegon V. Why should Elia cite Daenys' example - assuming she was even aware of it (it's ancient and obscure history, after all) - and not the more recent catastrophic examples of Rhaegar's closer kin?

If I was married to Rhaegar I'd not have tolerated any prophetic madness around/involving my children unless/until I, personally, had magic/mystical experiences. And I'd most certainly have not suffered the humiliation of a polygamous marriage without ample proof that this was indeed necessary. Proof Rhaegar could not possible have given me as Aegon is, most likely, not the promised prince.

[vassily targark]

Hi i'm brand new here and this is my first post

I've been reading you guys for a long time now, and i think i've got something to discuss that i hope have not been discussed here yet . (please excuse me for my english i'm french :kiss:)

As everyone here i'm aware of R+L= J (or maybe another twist on who is his mother, but i agree with raegar and lyana theory)

But this theory about sansa being the first to learn , or be told about it came to me just a few minutes ago because of two videos.

The trailer and a video of jon snow in real life (

)

In the comic video of jon and seth meyer at some point they ask him "but who is your mother", and it appears to be of great matter.It's very strange because that's the kind of thing that has never been pointed at in all video/tweet/trailer/showfanmade made for the show lovers. some of them are curious about theories, but for now it has always been complicated to imagine how this kind of twist/theories would be brought to the show watchers. It may seems pointless but i'm sure it is not.

In the trailer (that clearly spoiled us reader, even if we all knew that sansa LF aim was to go back to winterfell) it is obvious that

sansa stands in winterfell crypt. We all know for different reasons that winterfell's crypt seems to hide BIg secrets of the highest importance.

As a R+L=R fan it seems pretty obvious to me that what is to be learned in the crypt is about Lyana, Raegar,Jon (going farther maybe about bran future connexions but that's not the subject) and it's not in the trailer for nothing. My guess is that the show will introduce the question of jon's parentage this year. The watchers have had no chance till now to imagine that it was important.

Sansa is going to be the first to discover or be told officialy, that's my point here. I'm damn sure about it

sorry about my english i would have liked to explain better my point of view but still what do you think of i

[BearQueen87]

Big R+L=J hints from TIME's 4 episode review! DON'T READ if you want to wait until the episodes air.

http://time.com/3767866/game-of-thrones-season-5-review/

It's hidden behind blurred texts.

(Disclaimer: I’ve seen four episodes of the season; there’s no telling what might come up later.) But there are also a few elements I’m pleasantly surprised the show has retained–including info dumps about Rheagar and Lyanna, Maester Qyburn’s weird-science research, and a nod to popular theories about Jon Snow’s parentage.

AHHHHHHH

[Avalatis]

Hi i'm brand new here and this is my first post

I've been reading you guys for a long time now, and i think i've got something to discuss that i hope have not been discussed here yet . (please excuse me for my english i'm french :kiss:)

As everyone here i'm aware of R+L= J (or maybe another twist on who is his mother, but i agree with raegar and lyana theory)

But this theory about sansa being the first to learn , or be told about it came to me just a few minutes ago because of two videos.

The trailer and a video of jon snow in real life (

)

In the comic video of jon and seth meyer at some point they ask him "but who is your mother", and it appears to be of great matter.It's very strange because that's the kind of thing that has never been pointed at in all video/tweet/trailer/showfanmade made for the show lovers. some of them are curious about theories, but for now it has always been complicated to imagine how this kind of twist/theories would be brought to the show watchers. It may seems pointless but i'm sure it is not.

In the trailer (that clearly spoiled us reader, even if we all knew that sansa LF aim was to go back to winterfell) it is obvious that

sansa stands in winterfell crypt. We all know for different reasons that winterfell's crypt seems to hide BIg secrets of the highest importance.

As a R+L=R fan it seems pretty obvious to me that what is to be learned in the crypt is about Lyana, Raegar,Jon (going farther maybe about bran future connexions but that's not the subject) and it's not in the trailer for nothing. My guess is that the show will introduce the question of jon's parentage this year. The watchers have had no chance till now to imagine that it was important.

Sansa is going to be the first to discover or be told officialy, that's my point here. I'm damn sure about it

sorry about my english i would have liked to explain better my point of view but still what do you think of i

Welcome.

The show might take that path, but it is also diverging from the books. I haven't really followed any of the spoilers for the next season so I couldn't agree/disagree with this possibility.

[Kingmonkey]

Hi i'm brand new here and this is my first post

Welcome to the thread.

Sansa is going to be the first to discover or be told officialy, that's my point here. I'm damn sure about it

As Avalatis points out, the divergence between the books and show is enough it could go different ways in the two mediums. However some of the early set-up between Sansa and Jon is interesting in this context. Sansa is possibly less close to Jon than the other siblings, and seems to have a more traditional view of bastards rather than the more accepting view that the other Starks have.

There's an oft-observed irony in when Sasnsa thinks this in AGoT:

Frog-faced Lord Slynt sat at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king pronounced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. But a voice inside her whispered, There are no heroes...

Without her knowing, Jon became her "hero". Having Sansa be the first of the main characters to find out Jon would be a nice touch.