R+L=J v.138

[SFDanny]

SFDanny,

sorry, I don't buy that whole thing.

Not a problem. I just wanted to explain my own bias on this, and why I don't agree with your take here. I don't want to turn this into a southron ambitions thread, but my view is sharply colored by my take on that question. If you want to continue the discussion let's do it in another thread or PM me and we can certainly do so. Always appreciate a thoughtful discussion from a knowledgeable poster.

[sj4iy]

I still think it will matter in the end, at least to some of the lords of Westeros. Jon will be chosen King, IMO, at a GC mostly because of his leadership during the War for the Dawn. But being a true born son of the last Targaryen prince helps too.

I think the same thing, too.

Also, just wanted to say that I probably won't be around so much because we are close to the show premiere so I'm going on a bit of a sabbatical from this site. In case anyone was wondering where I have been ^^

[Alia of the knife]

I think the same thing, too.

Also, just wanted to say that I probably won't be around so much because we are close to the show premiere so I'm going on a bit of a sabbatical from this site. In case anyone was wondering where I have been ^^

I've missed you because you're awesome. Hope all is well. :)

[sj4iy]

I've missed you because you're awesome. Hope all is well. :)

Aww, thanks :) Everything is great, other than everyone catching colds. But my best friend got married last weekend and I found out my little sister is expecting her first child :D So no complaints here. Hope you are doing well, too ^^

[Ygrain]

All your quote stated was that she could not marry again. There is no reference to law. The Targaryens were the law. There is no congress of Westeros that passes laws. This is a technological period before the printing press. There aren't courts. There is the the current liege, which for Rhaegar would have been Aerys. Assuming there was a law (which there is no reason to think the Targaryens would have created a law just to stop themselves from doing something) Rhaegar would have to answer to his father. It would not nullify the marriage, it would just make the act punishable. But considering Rhaegar got married without his father's permission he was already in deep shit.

No law is ever mentioned. We know polygamy is taboo/immoral/against the teaching of the faith of the 7. We also know that incest is perceived the same way, yet the Targaryens who practiced it continued to do so.

So Targaryens stopped practicing polygamy. 1.) They created a law (which any future King could over turn) that bars future Targaryens from practicing polygamy (seems worthless). 2.) They decided as a matter of necessity that polygamy was inconvenient and caused a lot of problems so they no longer used it. 3.) They truly adopted the faith of the 7 and no longer practiced the Valarian religion. This would mean they would view the practice of polygamy as immoral... yet found incest to still be necessary.

Probably more a mix of 2 and 3. 1 just makes no sense, unless it was to appease the people. The problem is it was not binding as they make the laws, they could turn around and unmake said law just as easily.

Thanks for a nice compilation. I've done it too many times to bother again for people who don't bother reading.

[Ser Creighton]

I think the same thing, too.Also, just wanted to say that I probably won't be around so much because we are close to the show premiere so I'm going on a bit of a sabbatical from this site. In case anyone was wondering where I have been ^^

Are you trying to avoid spoilers? Or will you be visiting the show section more? This is probably the thread you want to avoid more than anything in terms of spoilers, I don't want to point the finger at anyone "Alia" but some people "Alia of the Knife to be specific" can be really spoilery... And then they blame the wine.

As someone who has taken many sabbaticals from the site, enjoy it, relax and enjoy the show, like you I am also a fan.

Just a heads up for those who have not seen it, but the New Sansa preview chapter is out. And on a show note Roz from the show actually makes a lot more sense now, at least to me. D&D clearly wanted to give insight into how LF uses people, particularly woman and it translates rather well to the Sansa chapter, not the prostitution part but the sort of pattern he has with using these people certain ways. I am your mentor your my assistant, I am helping you just do these things for me it will all work out, work out for him that is.

Anyway enjoy your time off, hope it is not as long as the last 6 months I took off and congrats on your soon to be aunt title. I am a trips uncle myself, otherwise known as uncle "Oh fuck he is here, run before he makes us do shit like Homework, manual labor and has us show respect to our parents." Two teenage boys, the little girl is only 3 so she still likes me. I do so enjoy torturing them, they love me, they just don't know it.

We want a new Xbox,

fine lets paint the house, get you an xbox and three games each.

No way, that's not fair

Who said life was fair and no was an option. You just lost a game each.

Well what are you going to do if we don't?

You just lost all the games, and I am going to drive you to school in a pink dress.

You are going to look so stupid in a pink dress.

Who said I would be the one wearing it?

Were should we start sanding?

[sj4iy]

Are you trying to avoid spoilers? Or will you be visiting the show section more? This is probably the thread you want to avoid more than anything in terms of spoilers, I don't want to point the finger at anyone "Alia" but some people "Alia of the Knife to be specific" can be really spoilery... And then they blame the wine.

As someone who has taken many sabbaticals from the site, enjoy it, relax and enjoy the show, like you I am also a fan.

Just a heads up for those who have not seen it, but the New Sansa preview chapter is out. And on a show note Roz from the show actually makes a lot more sense now, at least to me. D&D clearly wanted to give insight into how LF uses people, particularly woman and it translates rather well to the Sansa chapter, not the prostitution part but the sort of pattern he has with using these people certain ways. I am your mentor your my assistant, I am helping you just do these things for me it will all work out, work out for him that is.

Anyway enjoy your time off, hope it is not as long as the last 6 months I took off and congrats on your soon to be aunt title. I am a trips uncle myself, otherwise known as uncle "Oh fuck he is here, run before he makes us do shit like Homework, manual labor and has us show respect to our parents." Two teenage boys, the little girl is only 3 so she still likes me. I do so enjoy torturing them, they love me, they just don't know it.

We want a new Xbox,

fine lets paint the house, get you an xbox and three games each.

No way, that's not fair

Who said life was fair and no was an option. You just lost a game each.

Well what are you going to do if we don't?

You just lost all the games, and I am going to drive you to school in a pink dress.

You are going to look so stupid in a pink dress.

Who said I would be the one wearing it?

Were should we start sanding?

Not so much "avoiding spoilers" as avoiding the negativity here in general during show season. It grates on me...I understand people have their opinions and whatnot, but here every small thing gets amplified and blown out of proportion...makes it hard to actually enjoy the show when there's so much complaining. And I don't feel like going on the defense for liking the show...so, I'm just going to peek in here occasionally and try to avoid it this year...which I'm sure will be really hard with all of the changes.

My older brother has two sons, so I've been an aunt...my nephews are 18 and 14, and the 18 year old just signed up for the navy. I am done having kids, so we've been kind of hoping my sister (who got married last year) would want kids. She announced it by cake XD She and I have always been close, so I'm excited. I plan on dumping all my baby stuff on her XD

[J. Stargaryen]

Why would Rickard want his grandsons to go from inheriting Storm's End and being Lord Paramounts, to being so far down the Targaryen succession line that they will likely never ever be kings, if they even could possibly be eligible as it's not clear that polygamy would be accepted?

Baratheons beat Targaryens here in terms of things that Rickard would gain

First of all, any sons of Rhaegar and Lyanna wouldn't be that far down the line of succession, once Rhaegar became king. And if R&L had a daughter, the prudent move would be to marry her to Aegon and unite Rhaegar's two lines. In which case, Rickard's great grandson would be the king, theoretically.

Next, in your rush to argue with someone you failed to understand the context of the hypothetical I presented. This isn't a case of deciding whether Lyanna will be Rhaegar's second wife or Robert's first. In my hypothetical, R&L show up and declare they are already married, possibly with a baby in hand. There's no longer a possible marriage alliance with the Baratheons. So Rickard's choice would be to ally with the Targaryens or go to war with them. As it was, the rebellion ended up being a pretty even affair that only prevailed thanks to Robert's war hammer. Had Rhaegar won that fight, the rebels would have bent the knee.

With all that in mind, how close the rebellion actually was, and how close it would have looked on paper beforehand, I think there's a realistic chance that Rickard would have agreed to R&L's marriage. Better to have grandchildren who are princes and princesses and live in peace, then have no grandchildren (through Lyanna) and war. Don't you think?

JS,

I think we can go with the assumption that the Baratheon-Stark-Tully-Arryn-axis already existed prior to Rickard/Brandon's death (or rather: the marriage contracts, connections, and friendship existed that would enable the gestation of such an alliance). Rhaegar wronged both the Starks and the Baratheons when he abducted Lyanna, and it was Brandon Stark who was originally betrothed to Catelyn Tully. Brandon could have brought Hoster Tully just as easily into the alliance as Eddard later on. And Jon Arryn most certainly would have joined the alliances as well due to the close ties between him, Robert, and Ned.

I doubt that the hot heads Brandon and Robert had waited with their answers to this outrageous behavior until Rhaegar and Lyanna had shown up eventually to explain everything. If Brandon/Rickard had been in the North when the news reached them they most certainly would have marched south with a considerable host...

But my gut feeling is that all the Starks would have been abhorred by the idea that their darling daughter/sister could become the second wife of a polygamous (royal) abomination. All the Starks present at Harrenhal found it way out of line that Rhaegar even honored their sister as the Queen of Love and Beauty. I really don't think they would have felt honored if a married prince - even the Prince of Dragonstone - courted a Stark girl promised to another. Perhaps if Rhaegar had first set Elia aside and disinherited his children by her before approaching Lord Rickard in the matter it would have been a thing that could be talked about. But the way Rhaegar behaved? Not a chance.

It is hardly a surprise that no Stark woman ever was mistress or paramour to a Targaryen prince or king - or even another Lord as far as we know.

I think you misunderstood me. The gist of my point was that the SAA already existed, but it was Aerys, not Rhaegar, who drew their full wrath by threatening three of their houses with extinction. A marriage between R&L could have possibly split the SAA in half, in Rhaegar's favor. If he can get the Starks on his side, the Tullys should follow. The Baratheons wouldn't, but maybe the Arryns would. If Rhaegar promised Tywin that he would relieve Jaime from the KG, I believe he could also have counted on westerlands support. That would give him the North, westerlands, riverlands, and Dorne.

Rickard wasn't at Harrenhal.

Well, I think the fact that both Robert and Eddard are with Jon Arryn while Rickard/Brandon are burned to death are fact that back my interpretation. They could not react and had only return to their lands to stage a rebellion or try intervene on their behalf.

Note that Robb Stark calls his banners merely because his father is arrested and accused of treason - without even knowing whether Ned is guilty or not (he could have been, theoretically).

I don't think we should assume that Rickard would have just sat idly by after the abduction. And nothing at all suggests that Robert was fighting for his life or to avenge Rickard/Brandon in this whole thing (nothing suggests that they were particularly close). He fought to reclaim his betrothed and avenge her honor - and his own - on the man who presumably had abducted and dishonored her.

The Targaryens faced a lot of rebellions over less serious issues than the burning of a great lord and the execution of his heir. And I don't think House Stark would condone any dishonoring of its female members under any circumstances. We see that this is not the case at Harrenhal. Rickard would have acted more cautiously, sure, but I don't think he would have done nothing or nothing that did not involve raising his banners.

Could Aerys have started negotiating and trying to cool things down again?

Sure, if he had thrown Rhaegar to the dogs (i.e. Rickard/Brandon and Robert) denouncing, disinheriting, and condemning him to death he could perhaps have cooled things down. But he chose, for some reason, to stand at Rhaegar's side instead - in a twisted way, but still...

Not quite. Remember that they already suspected that the Lannisters had attempted to murder Bran, and believed that they had murdered Jon Arryn.

And, uh, Robert was fighting for his life, since Aerys had ordered his murder. Notice how Robert didn't raise his banners in rebellion when Lyanna was abducted, but only after Jon Arryn called his own, as a response to Aerys's demand for his head.

[BearQueen87]

I think the same thing, too.

Also, just wanted to say that I probably won't be around so much because we are close to the show premiere so I'm going on a bit of a sabbatical from this site. In case anyone was wondering where I have been ^^

I was wondering :) See you when we see you then!

And, uh, Robert was fighting for his life, since Aerys had ordered his murder. Notice how Robert didn't raise his banners in rebellion when Lyanna was abducted, but only after Jon Arryn called his own, as a response to Aerys's demand for his head.

Right. Robert seems to have taken a back seat to let Rickard do whatever he could to get Lyanna back, but he certainly did not embark on open rebellion until he realized that Aerys wanted his head.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I was wondering :) See you when we see you then!

Right. Robert seems to have taken a back seat to let Rickard do whatever he could to get Lyanna back, but he certainly did not embark on open rebellion until he realized that Aerys wanted his head.

Or Jon Arryn managed to force him to remain in the Vale originally, afraid that Robert might do something stupid.. Of course, when things went from bad to worse, the rebellion began.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Right. Robert seems to have taken a back seat to let Rickard do whatever he could to get Lyanna back, but he certainly did not embark on open rebellion until he realized that Aerys wanted his head.

Or Jon Arryn managed to force him to remain in the Vale originally, afraid that Robert might do something stupid.. Of course, when things went from bad to worse, the rebellion began.

Or Robert first learned of the whole thing when it was done and Rickard and Brandon and all the rest all dead?

Or is there any more information out that I may be missing?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Or Robert first learned of the whole thing when it was done and Rickard and Brandon and all the rest all dead?

Or is there any more information out that I may be missing?

Hm.. with both Brandon and then Rickard traveling to KL, I'd say that a month or two would have passed by the time of the trial.. wouldn't the Vale have heard by then?

[FrozenFire3]

An interesting little tidbit in this screeners review of season 5. As usual, proceed with caution (spoilers ahead).

[Jon Weirgaryen]

The law applies to everyone, at least theoretically. There aren't separate laws for people with the last name Targaryen. There's just a king who is the ultimate authority and therefor can do or allow whatever he wants.

This is interesting, where is that from? It may just be me, though I cannot remember it being stated in the text.

Even in our real world, this is a very recent notion and has not been implemented anywhere yet :(

Historically, the law went with a group of people and ethnology first, then by and large in around the 12^th century a law that was based on places was developed. It then took quite a while to create countries and with them, a universal per-country law. Still it did not apply to everyone yet, and even today it doesn't.

In Europe, there were polygamous marriages notably in the viking age (more danico as an example for a custom or law that followed an ethnologic group into Europe allowing more than one wife per man).

Especially mirroring the Viking custom, GRRM has introduced the iron born salt wife type of marriage.

In Westeros, there is Jaehaerys II ... and there is mention of a few fundamental laws or customs, and some of them are bound to a place or region or country, and some may be religious. But I cannot remember it being stated that it is for everyone, nor that people think it should be.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Hm.. with both Brandon and then Rickard traveling to KL, I'd say that a month or two would have passed by the time of the trial.. wouldn't the Vale have heard by then?

I had thought they were already in the Riverlands: Brandon having left Riverrun on his errand ... possibly in order to meet Rickard who in turn might have been close to the Crossroads, still Southbound with those 200 Northern nobility in order to arrive at Brandon's wedding in time.

If first Brandon and next Rickard and everyone else were speeding to KL, that should not have taken longer than Ned a year later from the Trident to KL. Say a week, give or take?

[Ygrain]

This is interesting, where is that from? It may just be me, though I cannot remember it being stated in the text.

Even in our real world, this is a very recent notion and has not been implemented anywhere yet :(

In fact, the text states the very contrary - that the Targs did not answer to gods or men and what was possible for Targaryens was not possible for anyone else.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I had thought they were already in the Riverlands: Brandon having left Riverrun on his errand ... possibly in order to meet Rickard who in turn might have been close to the Crossroads, still Southbound with those 200 Northern nobility in order to arrive at Brandon's wedding in time.

If first Brandon and next Rickard and everyone else were speeding to KL, that should not have taken longer than Ned a year later from the Trident to KL. Say a week, give or take?

Apparently it takes Ned a fortnight, so slightly less for Brandon, about the same for Rickard... For that part of the travel. Add a little bit more for the distance from Riverrun to the Trident.

Ok, not two months.. one month, perhaps slightly more.

Still....

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Apparently it takes Ned a fortnight

Is this news from TWoIaF?

Because if it isn't, then in the series, Rossart dies at King's Landing the day Ned arrives.

Rossard is made Hand of the king a fortnight earlier, the very night the old Hand of the King, Lord Chelstead, is burned.

The same night Aerys rapes Raella and some Kingsguard Jonothor Darry guards their door, only to be dispatched to fight at the Trident right after that.

He travels to meet Ned at the Trident, loses his life there and next Ned travels back to King's Landing to find Aerys and Rossart have been killed not long ago.

All within two weeks.

Makes the one-way travelling time King's Landing-Trident less than a week. I am sorry for the mathness.

eta: Added Jonothor Darry by name instead of the earlier "some Kingsguard".

[BearQueen87]

Or Robert first learned of the whole thing when it was done and Rickard and Brandon and all the rest all dead?

Or is there any more information out that I may be missing?

Just going off of this...but the only reason Brandon found out was because (we think) someone told him. If that hadn't happened, how long before everyone realized Lyanna was gone (and more to the point, that she was with Rhaegar?) So Brandon takes off for KL, Rickard goes after him, Hoster knows this and I assume it was Hoster who sent Robert and Ned (and Jon Arryn) the news?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Is this news from TWoIaF?

Because if it isn't, then in the series, Rossart dies at King's Landing the day Ned arrives.

Rossard is made Hand of the king a fortnight earlier, the very night the old Hand of the King, Lord Chelstead, is burned.

The same night Aerys rapes Raella and some Kingsguard guard their door, only to be dispatched to fight at the Trident right after that.

They travel to meet Ned at the Trident, lose their lives and next Ned travels back to King's Landing to find Aerys and Rossart have been killed not long ago.

All within two weeks.

Makes the one-way travelling time King's Landing-Trident less than a week. I am sorry for the mathness.

Twoiaf tells us that Rossart was named only after the Trident. So a fortnight between the Trident and the Sack.

Chelsted died before the Trident, definitely. It just seems that Aerys waited with appointing a New Hand.