Heresy 162

[Matthew.]

Alternatively... an odd little thought occurred to me about these swords.

I've just introduced elder son to Moorcock and to the demonic blade "Stormbringer" - drinks the souls of those it cuts. Valyrian blades were forged in the daemonic fires of Valyria using magic and no doubt blood as well. Are they intrinsically evil in a way that Dawn is not?

If the Qohor chapter in the World Book, and their attempts to emulate Valyrian Steel are any indication, VS is definitely evil. It may be the case that Dawn's special attributes derive from its origins as a fallen star, rather than any horrific rites performed in its forging.

I also have to say that soul-drinking swords doesn't sound all that far off from what's happening north of the Wall--men slain by swords of spelled ice and being made into thralls (granted, they don't actually have to be slain by WWs to become wights, but you get the picture :dunno: ). I think it would be more in keeping with the world if Valyrian steel and its wielders were just as unnatural and terrifying as their icy counterparts in the north.

[e1kabong]

Alternatively... an odd little thought occurred to me about these swords.

I've just introduced elder son to Moorcock and to the demonic blade "Stormbringer" - drinks the souls of those it cuts. Valyrian blades were forged in the daemonic fires of Valyria using magic and no doubt blood as well. Are they intrinsically evil in a way that Dawn is not?

I like that idea a lot. But I think if Valyrian steel is inherently evil, then probably just natural steel is neutral. Dawn, on the other hand, seems to be modeled after the mythos surrounding Excalibur (get it, ARTHUR Dayne). Particularly, I've been reading the Dresden Files recently and found that the sword Amoracchius (which is later confirmed in the series to be the fabled Excalibur) has a lot of potentially interesting parallels to Dawn. Basically the sword can be wielded by anyone, but is most effective in the hands of a "chosen" Knight of the Cross, and also has been shown to betray or not work as well with those wielding it with selfish motives (Dresden picked it up to try to get out of an oath and it didn't go well). Which explains why the sword Dawn is not simply passed until someone is worthy.

[Armstark]

Lyanna, despite not being a Lord of Winterfell, is buried in the family crypts with Dawn and probably some evidence of Jon's true parentage.

I just quote myself from yesterday:

No that's a common misconception. Every Stark gets buried in the crypts whether he was a Lord or not, but only the Lords get a statue and that was the exception with Brandon and Lyanna,

Edit: seems to be quite a common misconception indeed :cool4: two people in one day

[Black Crow]

If the Qohor chapter in the World Book, and their attempts to emulate Valyrian Steel are any indication, VS is definitely evil. It may be the case that Dawn's special attributes derive from its origins as a fallen star, rather than any horrific rites performed in its forging.

I also have to say that soul-drinking swords doesn't sound all that far off from what's happening north of the Wall--men slain by swords of spelled ice and being made into thralls (granted, they don't actually have to be slain by WWs to become wights, but you get the picture :dunno: ). I think it would be more in keeping with the world if Valyrian steel and its wielders were just as unnatural and terrifying as their icy counterparts in the north.

Another thought that occurs to me on this theme is the business of dragonglass and dragonsteel:

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Shaw: Is there a certain reason why they named obsidian "dragonglass" or why you did that?

Martin: Yes, there is a reason.

There is an assumption that both dragonglass and dragonsteel are a specific against the walkers and we certainly saw Sam demolish Ser Puddles with a dragonglass blade, but in that piece to camera a few weeks back GRRM came straight out with the statement that the dragonglass destroyed the magic holding Ser Puddles together. If this is so, might it not be the case that dragonglass and dragonsteel are so named because they work equally well on the big scaly beasts by destroying their magic as well? We do after all have that story about Azor Ahai slaying the "monster". In other words the "Others" may encompass all the creatures of both ice and fire held by magic and the real struggle here might come down in the end to man against magic.

[Voice]

Good morning heretics! Well it's almost noon, but hey, I just woke up so...

I used to group Beric in an odd men out group with Coldhands and Stoneheart. Obviously, there were some problems with that. Stoneheart is a woman, first of all. Coldhands is cold.

Beric is very unique. His blood is hot. It isn't a bubbling, smoking, black tar, like our corrupted shadowbinder Mel's blood. It is simply hot, like a living man's blood. While Coldhands exhibits signs of corpse-hood, blood coagulation and the smell of death, Beric exhibits scars. That means Beric is truly alive. He doesn't have a huge appetite, but he'll eat and drink wine on occasion. His body is functioning, rather than being maintained by magic alone. Magic has only returned the will to function to his body.

You guys know I'm big on classifying these guys, and I tend to split semantic hairs quite obsessively, but hey, someone has to... Anyway, this has led me to group Beric, and likely Stoneheart, much differently.

Beric's body lives again.

Coldhands' body does not.

We also learn from Beric that each time he returns he feels like less of himself... diminished... I think that is because he is only his living body. His brain retains his memories and identity, but it is fading because his soul no longer invigorates them. I propose his soul moved on with his first death.

If a kiss restores Jon, it will no longer be Jon. His blood will remain hot. He'll laugh with his brother on occasion, and share their table. But it will be hollow. He'll have a long face, grey eyes so dark they look almost black, and remember who he was, but he will not be Jon. Ghost will no longer be bound to him, nor like him much. And Ghost was conspicuously absent from his side when Jon had his armored in black ice dream.

Now, thankfully, that need not happen as GRRM has given us that "so you think he's dead, do you" quote.

So getting back to Coldhands and Stoneheart. Catelyn endured her corpse-hood for longer than Beric, so she decomposed a bit more, and her body was waterlogged. She shows signs of this, but I have a feeling her body is functioning again, just less well. Like someone who's been severely injured, and then only half-recovered. But her blood is undoubtedly hot, and her soul has undoubtedly moved on. She remembers her life, remembers who she was, because that data is stored in her brain tissue...as it was for Beric. But her soul has moved on. She was never a forgiving person, but now she's Lady Stoneheart. I'm surprised she never came up in my Bran's Vision thread as the third shadow at the Trident. Anyway, she's alive now. As her rasping voice implies the passage of air, and therefore, inhalation and exhalation.

Anyway, back to Coldhands. Magic alone maintains his body. His body is dead, moveable like a puppet on strings, but not living. His body cannot heal, nor even breathe. The smell of cold death clings to him. But, rather than being a living vessel without a soul, he is a dead vessel with a living soul. That honestly sounds like a preferable existence, strange as it may be.

This brings me to wights and white walkers, and it's something I've brought up before in reference to Ancient Others, hierarchical discussions, and the ice golem idea.

Wights are not living dead, only reanimated dead. Though characters assume they remembered LC Mormont, and wanted to attack him, I've been saying for a while that I think that assumption is wrong. The force than animates them knows who Mormont was, and wanted him dead. Wish granted. Anyway, wights are not like Beric and Stoneheart. Their bodies, while somewhat mobile, do not live again. They are not like Coldhands, their souls do not endure. In this way, they are far more like golems than popsicles are. Golems do not speak. Speaking of popsicles...

White walkers are not dead. Yet they do not live as we live. They are inhuman, another form of life. One, that does not depend on biological functions to thrive. In place of biological functions, they have magical innards. Being the unnatural, half-forgotten, demons of legend they are, they cannot sustain life doing all the same, fun ;) biological activities we are blessed with. In the stead, they are neverborn. How do neverborn propagate? Well, they clearly take no wives and father no sons, so they must harvest the living. Craster's cannot have been the only sons they've harvested. We've seen no dead babies in the wildling camps, and no infant wights...nor even child-wights.

So while Beric and Stoneheart are soul-less living flesh, wights are soul-less reanimated flesh, white walkers are living souls given full-grown sidhe, neverborn, bodies made of ice. Unlike Mel's shadowbabies, procured from a living man's seed, but like them, they stand as tall as a man and know how to swing a blade. Also, unlike them, they have physical bodies. Hell, they even have a soul. It just wasn't always their own :devil: This explains why they have identities, language, humor, and laughter. That's more than we can say of Lady Stoneheart.

Here's where my ideas may become less popular... The Others that first came in the long night, my Ancient Others, predate this process. They are not spoken of in the same manner as white walkers. They hunt using ice spiders. They were not called "shadows" as their thralls were. Rather than being vulnerable to a substance called dragonglass...they were vulnerable to a substance called dragonsteel. The 1993 letter makes it clear that it is they who raise the neverborn. The show may have spoiled this, but in any case, we have it from the author now:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

Now, the neverborn term makes a lot more sense. They are not merely ice golems. They are an entirely new form of life. Or, at least it used to be new...back when the Ancient Others first made them. In past heresies and my hierarchy thread I've laid out the military advantages of this process. Ancient Others command and gather intelligence. White walkers are field infantry (haha, infants!), and wights are at times cannon fodder, at others vanguard, and at others boobytraps. Ancient Others are least expendable...they cannot be replaced or recreated. White walkers are expendable, but not without inconvenience...gotta go collect another babe in the woods every time you make a new one. And wights are as numerous as corpses on a battlefield...toss a few dozen at the Fist, just for shits and giggles.

[e1kabong]

I just quote myself from yesterday:

No that's a common misconception. Every Stark gets buried in the crypts whether he was a Lord or not, but only the Lords get a statue and that was the exception with Brandon and Lyanna,

Edit: seems to be quite a common misconception indeed :cool4: two people in one day

True. I overgeneralized my wording a bit. But, yes, either way, she's oddly out of place.

I also think she might actually be buried near the ToJ with everyone else and there is only evidence in her coffin/crypt/tomb. Again, going off of Arthur Dayne's survival meant that Lyanna would actually be in his place at the ToJ graves. No concrete evidence, but when he's talking to Robert about her burial place, Ned says that he brings her flowers "when I can". If her true burial site is in Winterfell, why does Ned make it sound like honoring her with flowers takes some sort of effort?

[markg171]

Bookmarked

http://asearchoficeandfire.com/

Thanks for the link Mark. Probably much better than my copy. That one group of Wildlings is called the Therns right?

Glad you like it. As someone else pointed out, it has its flaws, but being able to search all of the novels at once is a damn good feature

And I think the wildlings that you're thinking of is the Thenns?

Mark, great link.. much better than the limited one I've been using (I don't have a Kindle).

Tunnels, people. World references, for now. Gorne and Gendel are overwhelmingly mentioned in Jon and Bran chapters.

from World re: CotF

But other sources dispute this, stating that their greatest foes were the giants, as hinted at in tales told in the North, and as possibly proved by Maester Kennet in the study of a barrow near the Long Lake—a giant's burial with obsidian arrowheads found amidst the extant ribs. It brings to mind a transcription of a wildling song in Maester Herryk's History of the Kings-Beyond-the-Wall, regarding the brothers Gendel and Gorne. They were called upon to mediate a dispute between a clan of children and a family of giants over the possession of a cavern. Gendel and Gorne, it is said, ultimately resolved the matter through trickery, making both sides disavow any desire for the cavern, after the brothers discovered it was a part of a greater chain of caverns that eventually passed beneath the Wall. But considering that the wildlings have no letters, their traditions must be looked at with a jaundiced eye.

Why Yandel segues from something that happened in ancient history (must have been a pre-Wall skirmish between the CotF and the Giants) to something that happened 3,000 years ago, I don't know. Another thing to note is that Long Lake is about halfway between the Wall and Winterfell, and is where Raymun Redbeard met the Winterfell host in battle and died at the hand of Artos Stark.

The brothers Gendel and Gorne were joint kings three thousand years ago. Leading their host down beneath the earth into a labyrinth of twisting subterranean caverns, they passed beneath the Wall unseen to attack the North. Gorne slew the Stark king in battle, then was killed in turn by the king's heir, and Gendel and his remaining wildlings fled back to their caverns, never to been seen again.

We don't know where this battle took place. Long Lake or closer to Winterfell itself?

It should be noted that Bran tells us something about the Winterfell crypts

The vault was cavernous, longer than Winterfell itself, and Jon had told him once that there were other levels underneath, vaults even deeper and darker where the older kings were buried.

Was the cavern the Children and the Giants fought over the Cave ofthe 3EC? Dunno, but if they both wanted it, it must have been a cavern of importance.

On an odd note, we have another trickster of the caverns... Lann the Clever, of unknown origins.

Re: The Wall

I'm going to put out there that the Wall's magic is woven into the Ice itself. It doesn't extend into infinity above and below ground. The only unguarded gate we know about is the Black Gate, but that is especially warded with magic separate from the magic of the Wall.

I do think tunnels and caverns will be incredibly important, especially seeing as GRRM is such a huge fan of LOTR. There's just too many important things that occurred in LOTR in underground passages for GRRM to NOT have been influenced by that and want to incorporate it somehow in his novels. I'm just not sure how he's planning on doing it, as Tolkien included so many important events in this fashion (the finding of the Ring, the death of Gandalf, Aragorn claiming his heritage, etc)

I must preface what I'm about to say with the fact that I've been MIA from not only the forums but the whole world of ASOIAF for close to a year - new job, new city and life in general got in the way - so my memory and heretical lens are rusty at best.

But this quote from the World Book, which I have yet to read, makes me return to an idea I was loosely playing with in my short foray into Heresy last year: that the House Umber sigil of a giant breaking chains is rooted in a historical event that is closely tied to the overthrow of the NK, or more broadly, the freeing of Northmen and Giants from the Old Powers associated with the Children and the Others. ATM, I have no real textual support for this - is just a loose idea/feeling (in general I need to do a heretical re-read before I have anything really substantial to contribute) - but this idea sort of presents a conflict with the Children and Others closely associated on one side and Giants and Men on the other

Well we do have this:

"Aye, and long before them came the Horned Lord and the brother kings Gendel and Gorne, and in ancient days Joramun, who blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. Each man of them broke his strength on the Wall, or was broken by the power of Winterfell on the far side . . . but the Night's Watch is only a shadow of what we were, and who remains to oppose the wildlings besides us? The Lord of Winterfell is dead, and his heir has marched his strength south to fight the Lannisters. The wildlings may never again have such a chance as this. I knew Mance Rayder, Jon. He is an oathbreaker, yes . . . but he has eyes to see, and no man has ever dared to name him faintheart."

What if Joramun was an Umber, or the founder of House Umber? We know that Joramun and King Stark worked together to take down the Night's King, but it seems awfully weird to me that these 2 kings would have any prior contact with one another being on separate sides of the Wall, so how did they arrange an alliance if they 1) didn't know each other, and 2) were separated by a wall controlled by their enemy?

Unless of course, they knew each other because Joramun used to be a subject/slave of the Starks and had rebelled (blew a horn and woke giants = called his fellow slaves to war and freedom) and the Umber sigil is remembering them winning their freedom from the Starks? They then marched north past the Wall to escape Stark where Joramun set himself up as King. Then when the Night's King rose to power, Joramun and Stark put aside their differences and worked together. After having defeated the Night's King, Stark agreed to let Joramun's people back into the North and let them be independent which lasted until the Starks took down the Umber Kings and the Umbers became vassals once more.

Just thinking out loud here a bit, nothing too settled in my mind about this, but then it would help explain why the Umbers are featured in the Night's King's tale as they're one of the families who was around back then, and was important in some way. At the very least, we know that the Umbers were independent from the Starks at one point in time

[markg171]

If a kiss restores Jon, it will no longer be Jon. His blood will remain hot. He'll laugh with his brother on occasion, and share their table. But it will be hollow. He'll have a long face, grey eyes so dark they look almost black, and remember who he was, but he will not be Jon. Ghost will no longer be bound to him, nor like him much. And Ghost was conspicuously absent from his side when Jon had his armored in black ice dream.

Maybe Jon is armoured in black due to his faded memory from being resurrected? These dreams are never actually literal, but rather figuratively.

In this scenario then, Jon is protected by black as he doesn't remember who he was and this blackout is his armour. Without knowing who he was, and only knowing that he is a member of the Night's Watch now, he devotes himself fully to the Night's Watch, much like Beric devoted himself fully to the Brotherhood as he couldn't remember his prior commitments to his betrothed and people? Jon's armour is that he won't worry about Winterfell or anybody else, he'll worry about what he thinks concerns the Night's Watch, thus he is protected here as his prior memories and experiences got him stabbed trying to fulfill duties that weren't Night's Watch.

[Black Crow]

If the Qohor chapter in the World Book, and their attempts to emulate Valyrian Steel are any indication, VS is definitely evil. It may be the case that Dawn's special attributes derive from its origins as a fallen star, rather than any horrific rites performed in its forging.

I also have to say that soul-drinking swords doesn't sound all that far off from what's happening north of the Wall--men slain by swords of spelled ice and being made into thralls (granted, they don't actually have to be slain by WWs to become wights, but you get the picture :dunno: ). I think it would be more in keeping with the world if Valyrian steel and its wielders were just as unnatural and terrifying as their icy counterparts in the north.

Indeed I hadn't thought it through that far, but whether or not the swords, whether of Ice or Valyrian Fire really do drink souls, perhaps the magic that goes with them does. Arguably the wights are indeed drained husks.

[e1kabong]

While on the subject of Dawn, I've already gone a little into my pet heresy that Arthur Dayne = Mance Rayder. I outlined in this forum, and have seen posted by others elsewhere, a lot of basics of the theory previously (ie - timeline, lack of a physical description for AD, plausibility that Night's Watch would accept him and eventually his forgotten like the Tagaryen part of Aemon's history). However, I feel that every heresy begins as a small kernel of suspicion. Like a gut reaction, there's just something about a scene/person/event that strikes you as...off. The event that sparked my curiosity into this theory started in Dance with Dragons 28...

It's said that to truly know someone, you must fight them. That being said, let's take a close look at how Mance Rayder (disguised as Rattleshirt) fights:

Once clad in mail and plate , the Lord of Bones seemed to stand a little straighter. He seemed taller too, his shoulders thicker and more powerful than Jon would have thought. It’s the armor, not the man, he told himself. Even Sam could appear almost formidable, clad head to heel in Donal Noye’s steel. The wildling waved away the shield Horse offered him. Instead he asked for a two-handed sword. “There’s a sweet sound,” he said, slashing at the air. “Flap closer, Snow. I mean to make your feathers fly.”

Jon rushed him hard. Rattleshirt took a step backwards and met the charge with a two-handed slash. If Jon had not interposed his shield, it might have staved his breastplate in and broken half his ribs. The force of the blow staggered him for a moment and sent a solid jolt up his arm. He hits harder than I would have thought. His quickness was another unpleasant surprise. They circled round each other, trading blow for blow . The Lord of Bones gave as good as he was getting. By rights the two-handed greatsword should have been a deal more cumbersome than Jon’s longsword, but the wildling wielded it with blinding speed. Iron Emmett’s fledglings cheered their lord commander at the start, but the relentless speed of Rattleshirt’s attack soon beat them down to silence. He cannot keep this up for long, Jon told himself as he stopped another blow. The impact made him grunt. Even dulled, the greatsword cracked his pinewood shield and bent the iron rim. He will tire soon. He must . Jon slashed at the wildling’s face , and Rattleshirt pulled back his head. He hacked down at Rattleshirt’s calf, only to have him deftly leap the blade. The greatsword crashed down onto Jon’s shoulder, hard enough to ding his pouldron and numb the arm beneath. Jon backed away. The Lord of Bones came after, chortling. He has no shield, Jon reminded himself, and that monster sword’s too cumbersome for parries. I should be landing two blows for every one of his. Somehow he wasn’t, though, and the blows he did land were having no effect. The wildling always seemed to be moving away or sliding sideways, so Jon’s longsword glanced off a shoulder or an arm. Before long he found himself giving more ground, trying to avoid the other’s crashing cuts and failing half the time. His shield had been reduced to kindling. He shook it off his arm. Sweat was running down his face and stinging his eyes beneath his helm. He is too strong and too quick, he realized, and with that greatsword he has weight and reach on me.It would have been a different fight if Jon had been armed with Longclaw, but …

His chance came on Rattleshirt’s next backswing. Jon threw himself forward, bulling into the other man, and they went down together, legs entangled . Steel slammed on steel. Both men lost their swords as they rolled on the hard ground. The wildling drove a knee between Jon’s legs. Jon lashed out with a mailed fist. Somehow Rattleshirt ended up on top, with Jon’s head in his hands. He smashed it against the ground, then wrenched his visor open. “If I had me a dagger, you’d be less an eye by now,” he snarled, before Horse and Iron Emmett dragged him off the lord commander’s chest. “Let go o’ me, you bloody crows,” he roared. Jon struggled to one knee. His head was ringing, and his mouth was full of blood.

He spat it out and said, “Well fought.”

“You flatter yourself, crow. I never broke a sweat.”

Mance Rayder isn't just GOOD at fighting. His agility, speed, and strength border on the supernatural. It seems (though I can't find any direct text to refute the idea) that the Night's Watch and Wildlings don't have much for armor outside of the practice ring. If Mance Rayder was just trained by the Night's Watch to fight in plate, he wouldn't be this good. His familiarity with plate mail (how to shrug off blows through correct movement and plate deflection) doesn't seem to be something they teach at Castle Black (who, in most of the training seen, use shields for protection, if any). And he wouldn't learn these skills from the Wildlings, who probably don't have access to much plate mail.

It's odd. Out of place. Unlikely skill from Mance Rayder, but not from Arthur Dayne, easily touted as the most skilled knight of his generation whose chosen weapon was the greatsword.

[Urrax2]

...Ancient Others command and gather intelligence. White walkers are field infantry (haha, infants!), and wights are at times cannon fodder, at others vanguard, and at others boobytraps. Ancient Others are least expendable...they cannot be replaced or recreated. White walkers are expendable, but not without inconvenience...gotta go collect another babe in the woods every time you make a new one. And wights are as numerous as corpses on a battlefield...toss a few dozen at the Fist, just for shits and giggles.

What were the popsicles in the prologue to Game?

[Voice]

Maybe Jon is armoured in black due to his faded memory from being resurrected? These dreams are never actually literal, but rather figuratively.

Sounds very plausible if he dies, but GRRM has made it sounds as if JS yet lives... But yeah, totally fits! Unless Donal Noye left a secret set of obsidian plate armor for him under his bed that he can't open until christmas...

In this scenario then, Jon is protected by black as he doesn't remember who he was and this blackout is his armour. Without knowing who he was, and only knowing that he is a member of the Night's Watch now, he devotes himself fully to the Night's Watch, much like Beric devoted himself fully to the Brotherhood as he couldn't remember his prior commitments to his betrothed and people? Jon's armour is that he won't worry about Winterfell or anybody else, he'll worry about what he thinks concerns the Night's Watch, thus he is protected here as his prior memories and experiences got him stabbed trying to fulfill duties that weren't Night's Watch.

I think he would remember who he was, but rather than feeling conflicted (i.e. heart/soul in conflict with itself), his soul would no longer be the conflicted hindrance it once was. He would be armored in security, in his oath, in his duty as a Brother. He would at once feel the certainty that comes when one's humanity is no longer weighing you down... No soul, no conflict. But his body would live again, and with it, synapses would fire, and with them, memories of his life, vows, brothers, and brothers who betrayed him. In that dream he kills some friendly faces as well, including Robb's, who was "his brother."

What were the popsicles in the prologue to Game?

White walkers. Not true Others. The reason for my certainty being the prologue occurred in Summer while the Wall wept. One of the reasons I've proposed for the motivation behind the creation of white walkers and wights, was that so the true Others could get a foot hold in warmer climes. White walkers are able to tread on summer snows, in living lands. Ancient Others require the Winds of Winter to ride down upon, in dead lands, on their ice spiders ;) The white walkers in the prologue had no such spidery familiars.

[PrettyPig]

Pardon me while I interrupt with this brain dump for a moment – going back to a few topics discussed in 159-161 to try and tie together some of the proposed ideas. (Disclaimer: this is the beta version and has not been even remotely developed in full.)

[beginwordvomit]

I was thinking about the R+L connection in the latter half of 161 and kept coming back to this passage between Bran, Meera, and Jojen:

“Up and down," Meera would sigh sometimes as they walked, "then down and up. Then up and down again. I hate these stupid mountains of yours, Prince Bran."
"Yesterday you said you loved them."
"Oh, I do. My lord father told me about mountains, but I never saw one till now. I love them more than I can say."
Bran made a face at her. "But you just said you hated them."
"Why can't it be both?" Meera reached up to pinch his nose.
"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."
"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

1^st backtrack: Going back to a previous discussion on the types of magic in ASOIAF and the possible connection/”common ancestry” between those types: Ice magic / fire magic = yin and yang. Opposing forces, separate but equal, each sharing properties of the other: ice can BURN, fire can MELT. But what happens when ice and fire meet? Although combined their forces give birth to a new element, water, obviously both individual elements can’t remain intact and survive…each is destroyed in the process.

2^nd backtrack: Over the past 300 years since Aegon’s Conquest there is no solid evidence of a Stark/Targaryen marriage (save for that scurrilous Mushroom rumor). Yes, the North is isolated from the 7K, but it does seem odd that there is not a single union between these houses and several Targ kings’ desires to bring the North fully into the realm. We have several marriages/interbreeding between Targs and First Men, but specifically no STARKS. (The rumored marriage between Jacaerys Velaryon was to Cregan’s bastard half-sister….half Targ to half Stark - so the magic battery not powered up to 100%.) The Pact of Ice & Fire fell through, but why? What stopped it?

3^rd Backtrack:

A) Today’s crop of Stark kids are wargs with varying levels of power. There is no sign that Ned was a warg, Benjen is unknown. However, per Ned, Lyanna had a touch of wolf blood, Brandon more than a touch. I suggested in a previous iteration of Heresy that this may have been literal – i.e., B/L were wargs. (I postulate that this is why they have statues in the crypts.) Ned tells Lya Robert will love her – “love is sweet, but can’t change a man’s nature.” What if it were HER nature – a wild wolf - she was referencing?

b ) Rhaegar is known as The Last Dragon. He is birthed during the strange circumstances of Summerhall, which perhaps involves blood magic and dragon hatchery. Dany POVs show a good bit of actual dragon imagery (the literal scaled fire-breathing kind) associated with both Rhaegar and herself as well, so I don’t think it’s a huge leap to say that Rhaegar could possibly be the human embodiment of a dragon. As his grandma is also a Blackwood, perhaps he like Bloodraven also has some “gifts” typical of First Men. Recall also that the Stark Kings of Winter booted the Blackwoods from the wolfswood back in the day, so historically there was enmity with the Starks.

C) MMD’s tent ceremony with song that “wakes powers old and dark” shows shadows of a man wreathed in flames and a great wolf – another indication that these powers are connected – and of course the sacrificial lamb was Dany’s unborn child who was said to have physical characteristics of a dragon.

The point of all this: What if the crux of the issue is indeed an ice/fire union –not in the Twoo Wuv Savior of the World sense promoted elsewhere, but a union that was literally forbidden Romeo/Juliet style, not by the families but by an ancient power? These two forces allowed to coexist but never allowed to comingle, in other words.

Rhaegar is a Targ-Targ product; Lyanna is a Stark-Stark combo. Both have moderately undiluted fire/ice blood with a Blackwood female ancestor only a couple of generations back.

So on to Rhaegar and his prophecy: Could he have stumbled upon info - perhaps confirmed by Aemon via the library docs at the Wall – that demonstrated a union of ice warg (Stark) and fire warg (Targ/Valyria) creates….a hybrid…that a certain old power doesn’t want created? A hybrid that destroys its parent magic elements’ forces? A hybrid that brings about a unification of power that reinforces the CotF/Green Men theory that “the land is one”? Proof that “love and hate can mate”, a hybrid that each side would want to claim as its own? (I’m looking at you, Underworld)

Other related ideas orbiting ‘round my cranium that I want to work into this :

Armstark’s theory of hiding Lyanna’s pregnancy by taking her to Dorne/not returning bones/burying her in warded crypt: i.e. hiding the union of ice and fire from some old power

WeaselPie’s theory of WF crypts/KoW with iron swords denying guest right to some old power

Jon’s crypt dreams of KoW telling him this is not his place, he does not belong despite being of Stark blood – he is also the “other” opposing blood…not Targaryen, but the old fire magic.

The idea of Jon needing to be sacrificed for some higher purpose, and Ned preventing that: “Promise me”, “Now it begins”/”No, now it ends”

Rhaegar “falling upon” Lyanna Stark in the riverlands, and taking her at swordpoint – did he sense at HH that she was a wolf warg?

Jon Snow with a dark path yet to walk per GRRM

Involvement of First Men-origin houses Hightower, Dayne, and Whent

Anyway, rambling now but wanted to get this out there before it evaporated. If anyone want to take any piece and contradict or run with it, please do so.

[/endwordvomit]

[wolfmaid7]

I must preface what I'm about to say with the fact that I've been MIA from not only the forums but the whole world of ASOIAF for close to a year - new job, new city and life in general got in the way - so my memory and heretical lens are rusty at best.

But this quote from the World Book, which I have yet to read, makes me return to an idea I was loosely playing with in my short foray into Heresy last year: that the House Umber sigil of a giant breaking chains is rooted in a historical event that is closely tied to the overthrow of the NK, or more broadly, the freeing of Northmen and Giants from the Old Powers associated with the Children and the Others. ATM, I have no real textual support for this - is just a loose idea/feeling (in general I need to do a heretical re-read before I have anything really substantial to contribute) - but this idea sort of presents a conflict with the Children and Others closely associated on one side and Giants and Men on the other

Leaf did refer to the Giants as "brothers and bane" to the COTF.Now this can be taken a few ways,but the one i like is them being natural enemies(bane) yet also shared the land and in the suffereing of being displaced and hunted by another formidable foe (Brothers)

I always saw the flaming Dondarrion sword to be a trick since he was with Thoros this whole time who used to do that to his own sword in tourneys and such. And now that Thoros (a red priest) can raise the dead through his sorcery, perhaps he can do more with fire than he could before. How did Melisandre get that eagle to catch fire? It could be the same trick. Maybe it could also be some sort of clue as to how the fire magic works since unBeric uses his own blood on the sword, so who knows?

But another thing to consider is that this happened at the high hill, no? Isn't that a cave with a bunch of weirwood roots too? hmmmmmm

I still affirm that Thoros doesn't have this power as it was not his intention to raise Beric.It was a simple funerary rite that i think had no power in itself.Thoros certainly believed he was doing it after a while,but i think that's the point. Thought it was at High Hill myself but i'm not sure,if it was that to me explains why he could have come back.

Alternatively... an odd little thought occurred to me about these swords.

I've just introduced elder son to Moorcock and to the demonic blade "Stormbringer" - drinks the souls of those it cuts. Valyrian blades were forged in the daemonic fires of Valyria using magic and no doubt blood as well. Are they intrinsically evil in a way that Dawn is not?

What a delightful thought,soul sucking swords imbued with their foes blood.I take your point and in that light it can be seen as something evil.

If the Qohor chapter in the World Book, and their attempts to emulate Valyrian Steel are any indication, VS is definitely evil. It may be the case that Dawn's special attributes derive from its origins as a fallen star, rather than any horrific rites performed in its forging.

I also have to say that soul-drinking swords doesn't sound all that far off from what's happening north of the Wall--men slain by swords of spelled ice and being made into thralls (granted, they don't actually have to be slain by WWs to become wights, but you get the picture :dunno: ). I think it would be more in keeping with the world if Valyrian steel and its wielders were just as unnatural and terrifying as their icy counterparts in the north.

Originally,i had believed the wws were using the babies to make their blades,but when GRRM the Others use ice that is not regular to make their weapons, their blades reminded me of Dawn.

Another thought that occurs to me on this theme is the business of dragonglass and dragonsteel:

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Shaw: Is there a certain reason why they named obsidian "dragonglass" or why you did that?

Martin: Yes, there is a reason.

There is an assumption that both dragonglass and dragonsteel are a specific against the walkers and we certainly saw Sam demolish Ser Puddles with a dragonglass blade, but in that piece to camera a few weeks back GRRM came straight out with the statement that the dragonglass destroyed the magic holding Ser Puddles together. If this is so, might it not be the case that dragonglass and dragonsteel are so named because they work equally well on the big scaly beasts by destroying their magic as well? We do after all have that story about Azor Ahai slaying the "monster". In other words the "Others" may encompass all the creatures of both ice and fire held by magic and the real struggle here might come down in the end to man against magic.

I agree it makes sense.

While on the subject of Dawn, I've already gone a little into my pet heresy that Arthur Dayne = Mance Rayder. I outlined in this forum, and have seen posted by others elsewhere, a lot of basics of the theory previously (ie - timeline, lack of a physical description for AD, plausibility that Night's Watch would accept him and eventually his forgotten like the Tagaryen part of Aemon's history). However, I feel that every heresy begins as a small kernel of suspicion. Like a gut reaction, there's just something about a scene/person/event that strikes you as...off. The event that sparked my curiosity into this theory started in Dance with Dragons 28...

It's said that to truly know someone, you must fight them. That being said, let's take a close look at how Mance Rayder (disguised as Rattleshirt) fights:

Once clad in mail and plate , the Lord of Bones seemed to stand a little straighter. He seemed taller too, his shoulders thicker and more powerful than Jon would have thought. It’s the armor, not the man, he told himself. Even Sam could appear almost formidable, clad head to heel in Donal Noye’s steel. The wildling waved away the shield Horse offered him. Instead he asked for a two-handed sword. “There’s a sweet sound,” he said, slashing at the air. “Flap closer, Snow. I mean to make your feathers fly.”

Jon rushed him hard. Rattleshirt took a step backwards and met the charge with a two-handed slash. If Jon had not interposed his shield, it might have staved his breastplate in and broken half his ribs. The force of the blow staggered him for a moment and sent a solid jolt up his arm. He hits harder than I would have thought. His quickness was another unpleasant surprise. They circled round each other, trading blow for blow . The Lord of Bones gave as good as he was getting. By rights the two-handed greatsword should have been a deal more cumbersome than Jon’s longsword, but the wildling wielded it with blinding speed. Iron Emmett’s fledglings cheered their lord commander at the start, but the relentless speed of Rattleshirt’s attack soon beat them down to silence. He cannot keep this up for long, Jon told himself as he stopped another blow. The impact made him grunt. Even dulled, the greatsword cracked his pinewood shield and bent the iron rim. He will tire soon. He must . Jon slashed at the wildling’s face , and Rattleshirt pulled back his head. He hacked down at Rattleshirt’s calf, only to have him deftly leap the blade. The greatsword crashed down onto Jon’s shoulder, hard enough to ding his pouldron and numb the arm beneath. Jon backed away. The Lord of Bones came after, chortling. He has no shield, Jon reminded himself, and that monster sword’s too cumbersome for parries. I should be landing two blows for every one of his. Somehow he wasn’t, though, and the blows he did land were having no effect. The wildling always seemed to be moving away or sliding sideways, so Jon’s longsword glanced off a shoulder or an arm. Before long he found himself giving more ground, trying to avoid the other’s crashing cuts and failing half the time. His shield had been reduced to kindling. He shook it off his arm. Sweat was running down his face and stinging his eyes beneath his helm. He is too strong and too quick, he realized, and with that greatsword he has weight and reach on me.It would have been a different fight if Jon had been armed with Longclaw, but …

His chance came on Rattleshirt’s next backswing. Jon threw himself forward, bulling into the other man, and they went down together, legs entangled . Steel slammed on steel. Both men lost their swords as they rolled on the hard ground. The wildling drove a knee between Jon’s legs. Jon lashed out with a mailed fist. Somehow Rattleshirt ended up on top, with Jon’s head in his hands. He smashed it against the ground, then wrenched his visor open. “If I had me a dagger, you’d be less an eye by now,” he snarled, before Horse and Iron Emmett dragged him off the lord commander’s chest. “Let go o’ me, you bloody crows,” he roared. Jon struggled to one knee. His head was ringing, and his mouth was full of blood.

He spat it out and said, “Well fought.”

“You flatter yourself, crow. I never broke a sweat.”

Mance Rayder isn't just GOOD at fighting. His agility, speed, and strength border on the supernatural. It seems (though I can't find any direct text to refute the idea) that the Night's Watch and Wildlings don't have much for armor outside of the practice ring. If Mance Rayder was just trained by the Night's Watch to fight in plate, he wouldn't be this good. His familiarity with plate mail (how to shrug off blows through correct movement and plate deflection) doesn't seem to be something they teach at Castle Black (who, in most of the training seen, use shields for protection, if any). And he wouldn't learn these skills from the Wildlings, who probably don't have access to much plate mail.

It's odd. Out of place. Unlikely skill from Mance Rayder, but not from Arthur Dayne, easily touted as the most skilled knight of his generation whose chosen weapon was the greatsword.

I tend to dislike the person X isn't dead but really is person Y arguement,but i have to say i am seriously digging this.Though Alfie Allen maybe an unreliable source i hear a Star Wars quote in my head.

[Black Crow]

Sounds very plausible if he dies, but GRRM has made it sounds as if JS yet lives... But yeah, totally fits! Unless Donal Noye left a secret set of obsidian plate armor for him under his bed that he can't open until christmas...

I think he would remember who he was, but rather than feeling conflicted (i.e. heart/soul in conflict with itself), his soul would no longer be the conflicted hindrance it once was. He would be armored in security, in his oath, in his duty as a Brother. He would at once feel the certainty that comes when one's humanity is no longer weighing you down... No soul, no conflict. But his body would live again, and with it, synapses would fire, and with them, memories of his life, vows, brothers, and brothers who betrayed him. In that dream he kills some friendly faces as well, including Robb's, who was "his brother."

White walkers. Not true Others. The reason for my certainty being the prologue occurred in Summer while the Wall wept. One of the reasons I've proposed for the motivation behind the creation of white walkers and wights, was that so the true Others could get a foot hold in warmer climes. White walkers are able to tread on summer snows, in living lands. Ancient Others require the Winds of Winter to ride down upon, in dead lands, on their ice spiders ;) The white walkers in the prologue had no such spidery familiars.

My problem with this remains the view that you are drawing a false distinction between your "ancient others" and the white walkers. We know for certain now that the others/white walkers are indeed a different kind of life - ice made flesh and held together by magic. That obviously does require someone to work that magic but there seems no reason at all to doubt that party "made" the first others/white walkers as well as the present ones. Having assured us that the walkers are created by magic and are not a separate race it makes no sense to introduce "another" separate race rather than keep the whole thing in-house and look for the sorcerers within the story, whether they be the children or any else

[wolfmaid7]

My problem with this remains the view that you are drawing a false distinction between your "ancient others" and the white walkers. We know for certain now that the others/white walkers are indeed a different kind of life - ice made flesh and held together by magic. That obviously does require someone to work that magic but there seems no reason at all to doubt that party "made" the first others/white walkers as well as the present ones. Having assured us that the walkers are created by magic and are not a separate race it makes no sense to introduce "another" separate race rather than keep the whole thing in-house and look for the sorcerers within the story, whether they be the children or any else

I agree with this,i think all players are and have always been in the story.I get what Voice is trying to say,but i think in the end the "Ancient Others" is just an Old Power.

[superunknown5]

I'm partial to the notion that Jaime Lannister will become the Sword of the Morning. Not for his blood, but for his needed skills when the shite hits the fans.

Jaime has absolutely tons of salt/smoke and rebirth imagery, more than anyone else in the novels, I've been on board with Jaime as AA in the past and still consider it totally viable.

It's his dream that makes me believe he'll wield Dawn, that will possibly be split in two just like the "new" Ice was. The pale blue light imagery is undeniable.

Two problems:

1) Anyone can hold and wield Dawn. It is just a sword after all. Jaime can use it. But he CANNOT be the Sword of the Morning. The Sword of the Morning is an OFFICE. It's a title, that is conferred ONLY upon a member of House Dayne BY the authority of House Dayne. Unless you think Jaime is Arthur's son. Which seems unlikely in narrative terms, though it is possible, considering that he knighted him and they knew each other. That would also mean Cersei is too, because they're OBVIOUSLY twins. Now, we don't know what Ser Arthur looked like, but I doubt very much that he had green eyes and blond hair considering his sister has dark hair and purple eyes.

However, he IS a stony Dornishman, who are "fair of hair and skin", and siblings often have different coloring so it's at least plausible I admit.

2) Though the sword in Jaime's dream is blue, Dawn is not blue. It's white.

The Other's sword gleamed with a faint blue glow. - Samwell, ASoS

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

I assume MILKglass is white, not blue. But in case there's any doubt, the Smiling Knight is here to save us:

The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it. - Jaime, ASoS

Of course, if you're saying the blade will be split in two, and one of those blades will glow blue, then... maybe.

[Black Crow]

Maybe Jon is armoured in black due to his faded memory from being resurrected? These dreams are never actually literal, but rather figuratively.

That dream was when he was very much alive and defending the Wall, but it does of course serve as an excellent counterpoint to Lord Eddard's dream of the fight at the tower in the Prince's Pass. Jon's dream is clearly not literal. It involves people he knows to be dead and it reflects his exhaustion, his frustrations and his guilt, and while we can analyse it to our hearts' content no-one pretends that it is a literal recounting of something that happened or will happen. Yet when we turn to Lord Eddard's dream, notwithstanding GRRM's warning that it is not to be read literally, there are some who insist that it is. In Jon's dream he slays Robb, yet Robb was never on the Wall. Why then should we believe that Lyanna died in the Prince's Pass?

[WeaselPie]

Pardon me while I interrupt with this brain dump for a moment – going back to a few topics discussed in 159-161 to try and tie together some of the proposed ideas. (Disclaimer: this is the beta version and has not been even remotely developed in full.)

[beginwordvomit]

I was thinking about the R+L connection in the latter half of 161 and kept coming back to this passage between Bran, Meera, and Jojen:

1^st backtrack: Going back to a previous discussion on the types of magic in ASOIAF and the possible connection/”common ancestry” between those types: Ice magic / fire magic = yin and yang. Opposing forces, separate but equal, each sharing properties of the other: ice can BURN, fire can MELT. But what happens when ice and fire meet? Although combined their forces give birth to a new element, water, obviously both individual elements can’t remain intact and survive…each is destroyed in the process.

2^nd backtrack: Over the past 300 years since Aegon’s Conquest there is no solid evidence of a Stark/Targaryen marriage (save for that scurrilous Mushroom rumor). Yes, the North is isolated from the 7K, but it does seem odd that there is not a single union between these houses and several Targ kings’ desires to bring the North fully into the realm. We have several marriages/interbreeding between Targs and First Men, but specifically no STARKS. (The rumored marriage between Jacaerys Velaryon was to Cregan’s bastard half-sister….half Targ to half Stark - so the magic battery not powered up to 100%.) The Pact of Ice & Fire fell through, but why? What stopped it?

3^rd Backtrack:

A) Today’s crop of Stark kids are wargs with varying levels of power. There is no sign that Ned was a warg, Benjen is unknown. However, per Ned, Lyanna had a touch of wolf blood, Brandon more than a touch. I suggested in a previous iteration of Heresy that this may have been literal – i.e., B/L were wargs. (I postulate that this is why they have statues in the crypts.) Ned tells Lya Robert will love her – “love is sweet, but can’t change a man’s nature.” What if it were HER nature – a wild wolf - she was referencing?

b ) Rhaegar is known as The Last Dragon. He is birthed during the strange circumstances of Summerhall, which perhaps involves blood magic and dragon hatchery. Dany POVs show a good bit of actual dragon imagery (the literal scaled fire-breathing kind) associated with both Rhaegar and herself as well, so I don’t think it’s a huge leap to say that Rhaegar could possibly be the human embodiment of a dragon. As his grandma is also a Blackwood, perhaps he like Bloodraven also has some “gifts” typical of First Men. Recall also that the Stark Kings of Winter booted the Blackwoods from the wolfswood back in the day, so historically there was enmity with the Starks.

C) MMD’s tent ceremony with song that “wakes powers old and dark” shows shadows of a man wreathed in flames and a great wolf – another indication that these powers are connected – and of course the sacrificial lamb was Dany’s unborn child who was said to have physical characteristics of a dragon.

The point of all this: What if the crux of the issue is indeed an ice/fire union –not in the Twoo Wuv Savior of the World sense promoted elsewhere, but a union that was literally forbidden Romeo/Juliet style, not by the families but by an ancient power? These two forces allowed to coexist but never allowed to comingle, in other words.

Rhaegar is a Targ-Targ product; Lyanna is a Stark-Stark combo. Both have moderately undiluted fire/ice blood with a Blackwood female ancestor only a couple of generations back.

So on to Rhaegar and his prophecy: Could he have stumbled upon info - perhaps confirmed by Aemon via the library docs at the Wall – that demonstrated a union of ice warg (Stark) and fire warg (Targ/Valyria) creates….a hybrid…that a certain old power doesn’t want created? A hybrid that destroys its parent magic elements’ forces? A hybrid that brings about a unification of power that reinforces the CotF/Green Men theory that “the land is one”? Proof that “love and hate can mate”, a hybrid that each side would want to claim as its own? (I’m looking at you, Underworld)

Other related ideas orbiting ‘round my cranium that I want to work into this :

Armstark’s theory of hiding Lyanna’s pregnancy by taking her to Dorne/not returning bones/burying her in warded crypt: i.e. hiding the union of ice and fire from some old power

WeaselPie’s theory of WF crypts/KoW with iron swords denying guest right to some old power

Jon’s crypt dreams of KoW telling him this is not his place, he does not belong despite being of Stark blood – he is also the “other” opposing blood…not Targaryen, but the old fire magic.

The idea of Jon needing to be sacrificed for some higher purpose, and Ned preventing that: “Promise me”, “Now it begins”/”No, now it ends”

Rhaegar “falling upon” Lyanna Stark in the riverlands, and taking her at swordpoint – did he sense at HH that she was a wolf warg?

Jon Snow with a dark path yet to walk per GRRM

Involvement of First Men-origin houses Hightower, Dayne, and Whent

Anyway, rambling now but wanted to get this out there before it evaporated. If anyone want to take any piece and contradict or run with it, please do so.

[/endwordvomit]

I love posts like this. Love it. And thanks for the shout out about the KoW denying Guest Right. Your posts are terrific.

I was thinking, which I'm sure a few people might be rolling their eyes to hear, but about that ice and fire thing... Rhaegar puts tsoiaf in a single person, Aegon. A fire parent and a sun and spear parent, who more importantly perhaps has Rhoynish "water magic" (see Garin) blood. This is why for many years I was certain Jon is the true Aegon (eh, I haven't put that aside entirely, anyway...)

If Rhaegar's son Aegon was/is TWTWP, and he needed three heads of the dragon to fight the enemy, I can only presume Rhaegar had information about the enemy of his super special son, conceived during a comet.

What if Rhaegar was tying to pre-empt his sons battle with his enemy, and possibly cheat the prophecy, by kidnapping the woman carrying it?

If Aegon is tsoiaf, he can't be the only one playing. Otherwise, what is the point of a magical dragon-riding trifecta?

Let's put it this way, if the IceLyannaFireRhaegar baby was supposed to be the balance, it certainly has not worked. How would that work? Jon is exposed as the Ice/Fire baby and suddenly all is right with the world? I can't wrap my head around that considering the coming conflicts. I don't expect anyone to drop their weapons and bend the knee if the big reveal is RLJ, and all manner of things are then well.

The Ice/Fire song has not happened yet. Jon will be on ONE side of that, not both. IMO. Cheers.

[WeaselPie]

Two problems:

1) Anyone can hold and wield Dawn. It is just a sword after all. Jaime can use it. But he CANNOT be the Sword of the Morning. The Sword of the Morning is an OFFICE. It's a title, that is conferred ONLY upon a member of House Dayne BY the authority of House Dayne. Unless you think Jaime is Arthur's son. Which seems unlikely in narrative terms, though it is possible, considering that he knighted him and they knew each other. That would also mean Cersei is too, because they're OBVIOUSLY twins. Now, we don't know what Ser Arthur looked like, but I doubt very much that he had green eyes and blond hair considering his sister has dark hair and purple eyes.

However, he IS a stony Dornishman, who are "fair of hair and skin", and siblings often have different coloring so it's at least plausible I admit.

2) Though the sword in Jaime's dream is blue, Dawn is not blue. It's white.

I assume MILKglass is white, not blue. But in case there's any doubt, the Smiling Knight is here to save us:

Of course, if you're saying the blade will be split in two, and one of those blades will glow blue, then... maybe.

No, I don't think Jaime is Arthur's son (hope I don't eat my words, but no). Edric isn't happening, Darkstar hasn't been given the honor. Someone has to become SotM, and I don't think it's Jon.

"What place is this?"

"Your place." The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who'd lived at the dawn of days.

Lann's origins are unknown.

I'm saying that if Beric's sword needed his blood to flame red, then possibly Dawn needs Other blood to flame pale blue. And since we only know of one important Sword split in two (Ice v2) maybe the dream is about the original Ice being split in two.

I don't know if Dawn is the original Ice... just a gut feeling. If Dawn is the kryptonite to the kryptonians, and the Starks have an "understanding" with the Others, they may have agreed to keep it far, far away.

SOMETHING happened to the original Ice.