Heresy 162

[Voice]

"the Sidhe made of ice..."

With the emphasis on "made" and the fact that you are Black Crow ;) I'll assume you're suggesting GRRM is talking about white walkers (neverborn) being forged of Ice using Craster's sons...

I always assumed the same. But he clearly states, "The Others" at the beginning of the quote:

The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

Keep in mind the context of the quote. He isn't trying to give away their origin before the final book is released. As we all know, it's an email to comic book artist Tommy Patterson; from Mr Patterson:

"Had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words."

GRRM is an author. And an adept one. Words are kind of his thing. He's trying to help Mr Patterson portray them in graphic art form, but he's not about to give away their origin before he's ready to. "Made" in this context, is an attempt to explain to Mr Patterson that they are an Ice-based form of life, instead of a carbon-based form of life like we're used to seeing. He helped Mr Patterson get their look right.

Now, let me try a variable approach as to why this presents no conflict...

The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

Let's call this quote x.

The Others = x

Then we have the longer equation from the letter:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, x, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

Now if we insert our value of x from the quote, we get:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous... raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

And just to clarify again, while I quite like the possibility that the Ancient Others are structurally different from white walkers (though, I'd still guess they are an Ice-based form of life), that is not what I am proposing. What I have proposed, is a hierarchy.

[Voice]

I know we can't use the show as canon, but there is this guy.

[Black Crow]

Viserys goes from calling himself King Viserys, to actually being King Viserys according to the appendixes. And it's around this time that the app comes out stating that Rhaella had crowned Viserys making him actually king. So GRRM went from having Viserys be a fake king who was never crowned, to actually having been a king. He can do this.

So even if it's not something he planned early on, that doesn't mean that he can't have changed things along the way. If something's written in stone (like Jaime's hand being cut off or Robert dying for example), he can't just turn around and say that this never happened. Those are events and things that happened. He can't change those. But when something is just a theory or a loose end, based off foreshadowing and hints and interpretations, GRRM can change whatever he likes as he never wrote that in stone, or possibly never even wrote it in the first place and people just imagined it as significant (cough, cough).

I don't think its a matter of things being changed but rather of GRRM affirming what he's said. We're introduced to Viserys right at the beginning of AGoT as the would-be Targaryen king of Westeros. All that GRRM is doing in the stuff you've quoted and of course in the World Book is emphasising that he really really is [or was] the Targaryen heir.

[Black Crow]

With the emphasis on "made" and the fact that you are Black Crow ;) I'll assume you're suggesting GRRM is talking about white walkers (neverborn) being forged of Ice using Craster's sons...

I always assumed the same. But he clearly states, "The Others" at the beginning of the quote:

The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

Keep in mind the context of the quote. He isn't trying to give away their origin before the final book is released. As we all know, it's an email to comic book artist Tommy Patterson; from Mr Patterson:

"Had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words."

He does indeed refer to them as "The Others" but he is describing the white walkers whom Tommy Patterson was required to illustrate for the scene in which Ser Waymar got scragged.

[Voice]

He does indeed refer to them as "The Others" but he is describing the white walkers whom Tommy Patterson was required to illustrate for the scene in which Ser Waymar got scragged.

He's describing Others as well, don't you agree? Or do you see further distinctions we should draw between them? :cool4: What I am proposing is not a new species BC. The hierarchy I have suggested on the other hand, is now supported by the letter. But of course you'll remember that for me, the distinction was clear once Bran corrected Old Nan. Instead of correcting him, or hitting him with a spoon, she agreed:

“Oh, my sweet summer child,” Old Nan said quietly, “what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”

“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.

“The Others,” Old Nan agreed.

The distinction, while obscured by misnomers and generalizations by various characters, has been there since the start for a careful eye to see. As the Winds of Winter blow, and the half-forgotten demons ride down on ice spiders, leading legions of wights commanded by white walkers on their dead mounts, they will be remembered.

I am glad you now concede ice spiders might exist. I remember at first you thought they were only something wetnurses used to scare little children. Mayhaps my other heresies will scuttle over your Wall someday...

[markg171]

I don't think its a matter of things being changed but rather of GRRM affirming what he's said. We're introduced to Viserys right at the beginning of AGoT as the would-be Targaryen king of Westeros. All that GRRM is doing in the stuff you've quoted and of course in the World Book is emphasising that he really really is [or was] the Targaryen heir.

Rightly so. That's not to say that GRRM hasn't performed some retcons though as he certainly has.

[Voice]

He does indeed refer to them as "The Others" but he is describing the white walkers whom Tommy Patterson was required to illustrate for the scene in which Ser Waymar got scragged.

And was Ser Waymar scragged? I think not. Will was strangled, aye. But Waymar was butchered.

[Uros2066]

And how about this angle. This is a little bizarro, but I talked about this maybe 5-6 heresies ago. If you do a search for "pale blue" (like Other blood, the Wall, Lyanna's roses, the fire on Jaime's dream swords), these words are almost always in an interesting context. Like this one regarding putting a hit on Dany:

Ser Barristan Selmy raised his pale blue eyes from the table and said, "Your Grace, there is honor in facing an enemy on the battlefield, but none in killing him in his mother's womb. Forgive me, but I must stand with Lord Eddard."

Sooo not so out there to reason that the KG were hanging around waiting for the nemesis babe to be born while the whole event was guarded with a very particular sword (why else would GRRM make such a big deal of the sword if it were not tied into the events?)... a sword that Eddard made sure stayed far, far away from the babe after the fact.

(for the record, I think the KG were also guarding the true Aegon, hence Dorne).

Anyhoo, was the plan to keep this otherbabe a hostage? Kill it so that Aegon could live without the threat? Dunno.

But I think one key element to the events of the ToJ (and environs) is that Arthur Dayne was there with a very special unique mysterious sword named Dawn. The more I think about this, the more those events cannot be explained without taking the presence of Dawn into consideration.

Combined with the "far away" comment and my annoying rambles about Gorne's Way. Voila.

ETA an argument against RLJ is that the KG would have no way of knowing if "Rhaegar's fetus with Lyanna" would be born alive or male for all those months. The impending babe being the nemesis, combined with Barristan's honor speech... then the waiting around makes sense.

What about Brandon + L = J?

R finds about it and dicides to eliminate his son future enemy?

[ConspiracyofRavens]

I know we can't use the show as canon, but there is this guy.

What the heck is he wearing on his neck? Is that a stone? It looks a little like Melisandre's ruby choker.

[WeaselPie]

What about Brandon + L = J?

R finds about it and dicides to eliminate his son future enemy?

I have several points against this theory, but in context, why do you think Rhaegar would think it would be Brandon's son who would be his own son's future enemy?

[Black Crow]

And was Ser Waymar scragged? I think not. Will was strangled, aye. But Waymar was butchered.

The perils of being divided by a common language. Over here scragged fits the bill.

[Black Crow]

Rightly so. That's not to say that GRRM hasn't performed some retcons though as he certainly has.

In this particular case I think he is simply trying to dampen down fevered asumptions that a "Jon Targaryen" would come before Danaerys the Dragonlord in the rightful heirs stakes, but conversely its possible that young Aegon may be a retcon in order to bring a genuine dragonlord to conquer Westeros, per the synopsis, on account of Danaerys being unavoidably detained elsewhere - or possibly not. GRRM did say at one point log ago that the child in the House of the Undying vision was dead, but then again he could hardly say otherwise and technically Aegon might be dead - long live young Griff. While this might be retconning I'm still inclined to think that he was planned all along given that Starfall reference in the AFFC synopsis and the theory on these pages that Ashara took him there from Dragonstone en route to the Rhoynish pole-boat.

[Maglor78]

New Sansa chapter!!!...no joke

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

[Lady Whiskers Outlaws Beet]

^ hurrah

[Uros2066]

I have several points against this theory, but in context, why do you think Rhaegar would think it would be Brandon's son who would be his own son's future enemy?

I just thought in terms of Stark-Stark combo, B + L obviusly isnt very likely.

[WeaselPie]

I just thought in terms of Stark-Stark combo, B + L obviusly isnt very likely.

Stark/Ice combo

[King Tyrion XX]

New Sansa chapter!!!...no joke

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

Thanks. I won't be back til I'm done reading it :cheers:

[TheSmallOther]

This is one of the big reasons I believe that, if anyone will be Azor Ahai, it's Jaime Lannister. His skill in battle failed him and resulted in capture and eventual de-handing (Riverlands = water). His bravery was tested several times, but I think the most crucial is when he admitted to Tyrion the ploy with his wife, which led Tyrion to spit curses/insinuations that haunted Jaime since (Tyrion's figurative heart = Lion's heart). Finally, he has to sacrifice what he loves. While this may be a future event with Brienne, I'm of the belief that him rejecting Cersei's request to be her champion will prove to be the sacrifice (the letter being burned with fire being particularly symbolic).

Whether or not he will wield Dawn or if another sword will be a new Lightbringer (Oathkeeper, fire from Ice), I can't really say.

I'd say let Jaime kill Cersei. He will empower the sword with her blood (nissa nissa) and the prophecy of Maggy the Frog will be fulfilled (younger brother). Fans celebrate Cersei's death. All profit.

[WeaselPie]

New Sansa chapter!!!...no joke

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

Hmm. I can only take away a few small things.

GRRM confirms that a character can be "born" in a different place and a different time than they were originally when a change of name/identity happens.

Petyr has Robert's tapestries on the Walls.

Other than that, I'm sorry. Quite a lot of filler and character dumps.

[The Free Folk]

Other than that, I'm sorry. Quite a lot of filler and character dumps.

Agreed, but also might lend support to my pick for best-random-thought-of-the-day:

Another thought: the "sister" of Jon Snow who has actually developed longing for him is Sansa (at the Eyrie), despite Sansa's coolness towards him when they lived together at Winterfell. I wonder if Martin would consider substituting Sansa (who is actually married to Tyrion) for Arya as the potential love triangle member in the last few books. Sansa would be of a much more appropriate age than Arya for this romance.

Over in the thread dedicated to the new sample chapter, a few posters are discussing how Alayne is being characterized in similar ways to Jon at the feast in Book 1, with Sansa being a bit snobby towards her bastard brother in a similar way to how Harry the Heir now seems to be towards her. It's an interesting character arc for Sansa nonetheless going from being snobby towards bastards to having people be snobby to her as a bastard, but maybe part of it is just because as Phillip Frye has said, GRRM wants to keep the Stark cousins + Tyrion love triangle but has replaced Arya with Sansa. Becoming more sympathetic to bastards - which is happening with the Alayne arc - would be a necessary character development for this to happen.