Astronomy of Planetos: Fingerprints of the Dawn

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Still reading, but your proto-valyrian post above... I was wondering if the House Dayne look is potentially more related to Rhaenys actually surviving the fall on her dragon in Dorne?

Enjoying the reads - thanks for putting the time in to your posts.

As far as we know Daynes are not Targs.

[Durran Durrandon]

"His smiling eye was glittering. "Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedarwood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air. I know them all."

- A Feast for Crows, The Prophet

I missed that one. I need to edit into my Amethyst Empress Reborn essay.

[LmL]

Euron's Silence has an iron maiden on the prow with mother of pearl eyes, I just caught that this morning.

And then he saw her: a single- masted galley, lean and low, with a dark red hull. Her sails, now furled, were black as a starless sky. Even at anchor Silence looked both cruel and fast. On her prow was a black iron maiden with one arm outstretched. Her waist was slender, her breasts high and proud, her legs long and shapely. A windblown mane of black iron hair streamed from her head, and her eyes were mother- of- pearl, but she had no mouth.

- AFFC, The Iron Captain

[Equilibrium]

Really, really good. First to compliment on the extraordinary writing, your style is getting better with each essay. I agree with almost everything, there are well few details I would like to add, but overall this is fantastic, coherent and conclusive. To say first couple of posts are great interpretation and unification of bunch of pitched hypothesis and ideas which is masterfully done with brilliant logic and understanding. Second part with Mesoamerican myths blew my mind on the level comparable to the first post, really driving dualism point home. Liked the detail about Jesus and origin of bloodstone, I honestly didn't know that and I proud myself on knowing such things. I can't praise it enough.

Few things I want to contribute. In the first part I did not mention how much your theory of Heart of Darkness being Heart of Summer (and polar circle - equator explanation) impressed me, It really did but I needed to mention it now because I have something to add. There is no need for piece of moon to fall next to the HoD(or) for it to became corrupted, the simple event of destruction of fire magic moon was enough to cause dis-balance in the magical and seasonal poles (ice and fire) on the Planetos, making fire pole HoSummer weak and corrupted and HoWinter stronger in comparison and causing winter that followed LN. Magic doesn't come from the moons, it is connected to them but source is magical pole (or both moon and pole) which explains why fire magic was corrupted and not destroyed and also seasonal disbalance.

Valyria is out of the question as HoS, it came to flourish later and all lands around equator are known for permanent summer. I do strongly disagree with you hypothesis about making dragons out of fire or lava or them being birthed by it. When LN came only dragons that survived where those in Fourteen Flames because it was only place that was at least little warm. So Qarth myth aside both explanation of dragons coming from the present HoDarkness and that of them coming from the Fourteen Flames are true this way.

If you look geographically Oldtown and Starfall are close and both next to sea, it really does seem like a pattern of colonial outposts (ancient Greeks like). Outpost conjures Dragonstone to mind, and parallels are more then obvious, Daynes escaped. When moon was struck and rocks of it fell to Planetos, rocks where dead husk of a goddess, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went to the Lightbringer, so in the comet that struck her and star that fell and was made into Dawn is all that remains of the comet, so all the energy of the fire moon is in the Dawn. Daynes searched for that star so they could make Dawn and defeat BSE, he followed them and they defeated him on Battle Island, outpost next to the one they fled to. Maybe Dawn lost some of it's power in the process of defeating BSE and his evil blood magic red fire sword. Reminds me of Sword of Frost and Armageddon's Blade from Heroes clash of which ended the world (That story was told later so GRRM could not be inspired by it but it's fun), in this case clash of two super powerful swords ended empire and almost world too.

Thank you LmL you really made my day and not only that you draw out best of my theorizing capacities. I hope it was not a long read :D

[RobOsevens]

Wow! as always LmL that was a great read, love the theories I don't know if any of it will have much of an impact on the end game of the series but it really seems to plausibly fill in GRRM's world building

tying everything together so to speak

[RobOsevens]

I have some work now and Pillars of Eternity won't play themselves but I will cut the first and skip the other just to read it.

How is Pillars? I was debating on waiting for it to go on sale on steam but I really want it too haha

[Equilibrium]

How is Pillars? I was debating on waiting for it to go on sale on steam but I really want it too haha

Awesome, better then BG2 in my opinion. It's pretty polished too, some bugs but very few and far between.

I can't get enough, just one more area, just one more map hours go by. I you like classic cRPGs you will like Pillars.

[RobOsevens]

Awesome, better then BG2 in my opinion. It's pretty polished too, some bugs but very few and far between.

I can't get enough, just one more area, just one more map hours go by. I you like classic cRPGs you will like Pillars.

Thanks.... there goes my long weekend

[LmL]

Really, really good. First to compliment on the extraordinary writing, your style is getting better with each essay. I agree with almost everything, there are well few details I would like to add, but overall this is fantastic, coherent and conclusive. To say first couple of posts are great interpretation and unification of bunch of pitched hypothesis and ideas which is masterfully done with brilliant logic and understanding. Second part with Mesoamerican myths blew my mind on the level comparable to the first post, really driving dualism point home. Liked the detail about Jesus and origin of bloodstone, I honestly didn't know that and I proud myself on knowing such things. I can't praise it enough.

Thanks EQ, I really appreciate it, it’s a lot of work but a lot of fun and I love doing it. Love puzzles, and on a certain level this whole series is a complex series of puzzles crafted by a real puzzle master.. good times.

​The Obsidian Claw Butterfly ain’t nuthin ta f*ck with, ya know? Gods, what a frightening idea. And yes, when I found that dark sun jaguar stuff I just couldn’t believe it. It’s pretty awesome that George worked something like that into his backstory.. I just ate that stuff up. Really freaking cool. And yes, the dualism is perfect fit, and George seems to be putting that idea into all the Dawn Age mythologies - opposites in balance. It’s everywhere.

Few things I want to contribute. In the first part I did not mention how much your theory of Heart of Darkness being Heart of Summer (and polar circle - equator explanation) impressed me, It really did but I needed to mention it now because I have something to add. There is no need for piece of moon to fall next to the HoD(or) for it to became corrupted, the simple event of destruction of fire magic moon was enough to cause dis-balance in the magical and seasonal poles (ice and fire) on the Planetos, making fire pole HoSummer weak and corrupted and HoWinter stronger in comparison and causing winter that followed LN. Magic doesn't come from the moons, it is connected to them but source is magical pole (or both moon and pole) which explains why fire magic was corrupted and not destroyed and also seasonal disbalance.

​That’s a really cool idea, and makes a lot of sense. It’s worthy of further thought and exploration. I’m not sure at all exactly HOW the Shadow got f*cked up by the moon explosion, only that it did. I am pretty sure that three moon rocks hit the planet though, that’s made clear in the symbolism over and over, and it does seem that one of them took the form of a meteor shower, hence the Qarthine myth. I think that one hit near Asshai, one certainly was the Hammer of the Waters with broke the arm of Dorne (I feel very confident in my ability to conclusively prove that one, essay to come), but the third impact I am still looking for. I have several contenders, including the red waste next to Qarth. Qarth is where the meteor shower dragon story comes from, so that may be a match.

Valyria is out of the question as HoS, it came to flourish later and all lands around equator are known for permanent summer. I do strongly disagree with you hypothesis about making dragons out of fire or lava or them being birthed by it. When LN came only dragons that survived where those in Fourteen Flames because it was only place that was at least little warm. So Qarth myth aside both explanation of dragons coming from the present HoDarkness and that of them coming from the Fourteen Flames are true this way.

That’s certainly possible and makes a lot of sense. Admittedly my ideas here are pure speculation - I only know that the the element of fire is intrinsically magical in ASIOAF and that the dragons are the epitome of fire made flesh. I do think that the Long Night events must have wiped out most of the dragons along with all other life, and the corruption of the heart of summer may have directly killed them also. The idea that they survived only in the 14 flames and the Shadow is a very plausible scenario. I didn’t want to go to far off topic with speculation there, as the origin of dragons could really be its own discussion thread. My main point is that they first came from the heart summer, before the Long Night and the Bloodstone Emperor.

​I don’t buy the wyverns / firewyrms thing, although it can’t be ruled out. I think it’s just bad science by the masters, that’s all.

If you look geographically Oldtown and Starfall are close and both next to sea, it really does seem like a pattern of colonial outposts (ancient Greeks like). Outpost conjures Dragonstone to mind, and parallels are more then obvious, Daynes escaped. When moon was struck and rocks of it fell to Planetos, rocks where dead husk of a goddess, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went to the Lightbringer, so in the comet that struck her and star that fell and was made into Dawn is all that remains of the comet, so all the energy of the fire moon is in the Dawn. Daynes searched for that star so they could make Dawn and defeat BSE, he followed them and they defeated him on Battle Island, outpost next to the one they fled to. Maybe Dawn lost some of it's power in the process of defeating BSE and his evil blood magic red fire sword. Reminds me of Sword of Frost and Armageddon's Blade from Heroes clash of which ended the world (That story was told later so GRRM could not be inspired by it but it's fun), in this case clash of two super powerful swords ended empire and almost world too.

​We are thinking along the same lines here. I’ve got more ideas about this battle at battle isle and the following events on westeros, and I think they can be divined from examination of TWOIAF, but that’s several essays ahead of where I am now.

If I am right that one of the moon rocks caused the shattering of the arm of dorne, it explains why the Great Empire outposts were on the south and potentially west (iron islands) coats of Westeros, and nor Dragonstone or anywhere on the east coast.

I do identify the Dawn meteorite with being part of the comet itself. My idea was that it split off before the sun split it and turned it red, during whatever was representative of the tempering in water. Comets drop chunks of rock periodically as they enter the solar system and heat up, so I figured this was the Dawn meteor. There would probably be nothing left of the comet after it struck the moon. Everything was melted or vaporized.. only pieces of moon rock would have escaped somewhat intact, I think. Plus, if the Dawn meteor split off first, during the water forging, that means the comet did actually split in three - three heads has the dragon.

Also, and I almost put this in the religion of the dawn section, the concept of a solar trinity comes from the three phases of the sun - sunrise - associated with blue for the morning mists, midday sun - gold for the bright sun in its fullness, and sunset - red to denote its death and descent into the underworld. Blue, gold, red. Water, Lion, Nissa’a heart. A split by melting (blue, water), a split by the sun (gold, lion), and the thrust to the heart (red, blood sacrifice). Thus I think Dawn splitting ff first makes the most sense. Dawn is the first phase of the sun. The red sword is all about nightfall. Dark lightbringer.

The aztecs have a cool morningstar / evenstar dichoomy. Quetzalcoatl is the morningstar, and another horrific deity, Xolotl, is the dark Venus evenstar fellow who guides the sun through the underworld.

Thank you LmL you really made my day and not only that you draw out best of my theorizing capacities. I hope it was not a long read :D

I see what you did there, very funny. :laugh:

[LmL]

Thanks.... there goes my long weekend

Hey get a room you guys!

J/K, thanks for reading Rob Osevens. All I can say is that I love backstory and apparently so does George R. R. Martin. Much of this informs a bit more about the context of the main story, or potential ways harmony might be restored, and much of it just really interesting stuff that George has hidden for those of us who like playing detective. I haven’t even begun to get in to all the easter-egg, reader-only clues in TWOIAF which confirm many ideas I have laid out here and more that I have not.

The entire sequence of the war between Sarnor and the Dothraki, for example, is a coded choreographing of the entire astronomy sequence, the bloodstone emperors usurpation, his journey to westeros, his battle there, and then subsequent actions by other major players like Garth the Green, the Last Hero, the Night’s Queen, etc. I’m curious to see if anyone can decode it... I tripped out pretty hard when I realized how detailed George was going on this. It’s all there. The Sarnori codex, heh, that’ll be part 7 or something.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Very interesting job, LmL. Not as mindblowing as the previous parts because you've already hinted some ideas presented here on the board this past weeks, but it's nice to have them all assembled in a single thread.

The part I've found the most interesting is the Heart of Darkness being the Shadow of Asshai-by-the-Shadow, and particularly the link with Bran's visions when he wakes up. Now it makes sense for Bran to see a dragon stirring above Asshai just before seeing north and into the Heart of Winter !

For the rest I'm following you : The GEotD, the Daynes, it seems fine.

[Mychel_Redfort]

The entire sequence of the war between Sarnor and the Dothraki, for example, is a coded choreographing of the entire astronomy sequence, the bloodstone emperors usurpation, his journey to westeros, his battle there, and then subsequent actions by other major players like Garth the Green, the Last Hero, the Night’s Queen, etc. I’m curious to see if anyone can decode it... I tripped out pretty hard when I realized how detailed George was going on this. It’s all there. The Sarnori codex, heh, that’ll be part 7 or something.

I've actually re-read the whole Grasslands chapter of AWOIAF the first time you've mentioned this, but couldn't find much parallels. Looks like you're better than me at this game :bowdown:

[RobOsevens]

Hey get a room you guys!

J/K, thanks for reading Rob Osevens. All I can say is that I love backstory and apparently so does George R. R. Martin. Much of this informs a bit more about the context of the main story, or potential ways harmony might be restored, and much of it just really interesting stuff that George has hidden for those of us who like playing detective. I haven’t even begun to get in to all the easter-egg, reader-only clues in TWOIAF which confirm many ideas I have laid out here and more that I have not.

The entire sequence of the war between Sarnor and the Dothraki, for example, is a coded choreographing of the entire astronomy sequence, the bloodstone emperors usurpation, his journey to westeros, his battle there, and then subsequent actions by other major players like Garth the Green, the Last Hero, the Night’s Queen, etc. I’m curious to see if anyone can decode it... I tripped out pretty hard when I realized how detailed George was going on this. It’s all there. The Sarnori codex, heh, that’ll be part 7 or something.

It will be awesome when its all said and done to see how close you are LmL

[Hoodwinked]

First, awesome essay. I enjoyed the read.

Curious on your opinion though. You say that it was possibly The Dawn vs The Lightbringer. If we were to predict this to the future, who will be holding The Dawn, and who do you think will be opposing that person with The Lightbringer?

[LmL]

First, awesome essay. I enjoyed the read.

Curious on your opinion though. You say that it was possibly The Dawn vs The Lightbringer. If we were to predict this to the future, who will be holding The Dawn, and who do you think will be opposing that person with The Lightbringer?

Hey man! You want me to ruin part 15 of the series?? Come on now! Hah ha, just kidding, I haven't really spent to much time trying to predict the ending yet. I'm not even sure the same magic swords will be needed - I mean, probably, not maybe not. Brienne has my attention right now, because she seems to be doing blood sacrifices to heart trees with Ned's sword and because of all the obvious Morningstar / Evenstar symbolism around her. Not sure if she is forging a sword for someone else to use, or for her to use... And Dawn, I assume it's down in Starfall. The only two candidates to wield it would be Edric Dayne (who has certainly gained in martial prowess with the Brotherhood without Banners), or Darkstar. If Darkstarr gets it, we may be looking at a role reversal - the "bad guy" having Dawn this time and the "good guy" with Lightbringer. I really don't know. It could be that magic swords were the thing last time, and this time it's going to be more of an ice dragon vs fire dragon thing - it's really hard to say. I do plan to dig into that once I get this ancient drama over to westeros.. Maybe by part 6?

Hmm, long winded author who can't manage to get his series back to Westeros... Where have I heard that before..

[Equilibrium]

Something crossed my mind while reading your replay, with third piece of comet and all. Dawn is milky pale and shiny, and I just can't believe no one thought of another milky pale and shiny thing we have on Earth, pearl.

Yes there is Pearl Emperor but his father is more interesting. He is son of Lion of Night and Maiden Made Of Light, so technically Sun's son. How his reign begun is not told anywhere, but his father and mother being gods and himself being god, it's logical he descended from heavens (stars) like he ascended back after his reign. He traveled about his domains in a palanquin carved from a single pearl, or maybe it only looked like pearl. Could all of this tell of the impact of another piece of the comet, coming from the Sun it could look like it was Sun's son. Maybe meteor brought magic and since ensuing bliss, but people got to reliant on it and grew lazy, weak and corrupt, desecrating magic over time.

Another explanation could be that pearl was one of the celestial bodies, and traveling domains means moving across the sky? Maybe it was original comet, not split and not yet red from the sun's effect, pearly white, and it brought magic just by crossing near Planetos like it could be case now. Hundred wives could be stars, if moved across sky it could look like they are carrying it.

[Renee Sansa]

First, awesome essay. I enjoyed the read.

Curious on your opinion though. You say that it was possibly The Dawn vs The Lightbringer. If we were to predict this to the future, who will be holding The Dawn, and who do you think will be opposing that person with The Lightbringer?

This.

I've read some of your essays and wow - congratulations! I could flatter them even more, but I think you're well aware how great they are.

If Daenerys is a good figure, the one who could bring balance as the reborn Amethyst Empress, who do you think is the ultimate 'bad guy'? The Azor Ahai reborn? Maybe you've already said it, and I've missed it, so if that's the truth, please repeat it. If not, I really am curious what your opinion on this is.

[LmL]

Very interesting job, LmL. Not as mindblowing as the previous parts because you've already hinted some ideas presented here on the board this past weeks, but it's nice to have them all assembled in a single thread.The part I've found the most interesting is the Heart of Darkness being the Shadow of Asshai-by-the-Shadow, and particularly the link with Bran's visions when he wakes up. Now it makes sense for Bran to see a dragon stirring above Asshai just before seeing north and into the Heart of Winter !For the rest I'm following you : The GEotD, the Daynes, it seems fine.

Yes, for someone like yourself who has been active in certain threads most of this is wrap up and compiling, but of course the GEotD is kind of a shadowy thing and people who haven't read the Worldbook very closely or at all hear us talking about it and think "what the hell are you mofo's talkin about?" Thus, the exhaustive approach to gathering everything we know about them. I did try to include a couple tasty treats - the heart of summer thing, and I thought the Mayan / Aztec stuff was pretty awesome, and I haven't seen it anywhere on the boards.

I believe I may be the first to solve the "Lion of Night" mystery, I haven't seen anyone put the "dark sun" forward. Anyway, that said, theres some more eyebrow-raising material in the companion piece to this one (which I already have written, essentially) which will attempt to identify the descendents of the Great Empire of the Dawn.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Had to admit I think it makes sense Saffron Straits implies more cities and such in the far far east. And it's clear that Asshai was alive at some point, so yeah. Cool.

[LmL]

Had to admit I think it makes sense Saffron Straits implies more cities and such in the far far east. And it's clear that Asshai was alive at some point, so yeah. Cool.

Hooray! Words of cheer from the Grump! Unicorns and sparkling rainbows!

The more I pondered this concept, the more clear it seemed to me that Asshai must have been built when that area was a great place to live.