Astronomy of Planetos: Fingerprints of the Dawn

[Mychel_Redfort]

Speaking of that, we know ships still go to Asshai to trade, but do we know why they don't cross the Saffron Straits ? It seems like the easiest area to expand the Known World, no ?

[BalerionTheCat]

Big delivery LmL, very well written. I've read only the 1st 3 so far.

Just one question and one remark for now.

We aren't sure where exactly Euron saw these golden statues with gemstone eyes, but it's safe to say it was somewhere in the Far East, just where you'd think to find them.

Why do you believe Euron saw statues? I'm not sure if material representations (ie statues) still exist somewhere. I would rather expect a vision. Possibly after drinking the stuff of the Warlocks. I would also believe that what Daenerys saw was the living emperors, not statues.

- remember that my theory dictates the darkness came from several large moon rock impacts on the surface of Planetos,

I'm still not convinced the LN was due to a comet striking a moon and raining debris on the planet. The incoming Winter, like all winters, is apparently predicted by the measters, by observing the sky. Maybe the LN is different, but I would suppose not. My interpretation is that normal winters would be the Sun remaining low on the horizon and giving little light. And the LN would be the Sun remaining below the horizon, producing the equivalent of a polar night. I agree, however, that something fell from the Sky. It created the Shadow Lands. And by some totally unexplained and totally non scientific way, it modified the course of the Sun. My problem is that a comet collision cannot explain the irregular but repetitive winters, could not be predicted by maesters. While I would believe the LN is an extremely powerful winter. The irregular Sun trajectory would explain why summers (Sun too high and too long in the sky every day, giving too much heat) and winters alternate with proportional durations. The greater the oscillations, the stronger and longer the summers and winters.

[LmL]

Something crossed my mind while reading your replay, with third piece of comet and all. Dawn is milky pale and shiny, and I just can't believe no one thought of another milky pale and shiny thing we have on Earth, pearl.

Yes there is Pearl Emperor but his father is more interesting. He is son of Lion of Night and Maiden Made Of Light, so technically Sun's son. How his reign begun is not told anywhere, but his father and mother being gods and himself being god, it's logical he descended from heavens (stars) like he ascended back after his reign. He traveled about his domains in a palanquin carved from a single pearl, or maybe it only looked like pearl. Could all of this tell of the impact of another piece of the comet, coming from the Sun it could look like it was Sun's son. Maybe meteor brought magic and since ensuing bliss, but people got to reliant on it and grew lazy, weak and corrupt, desecrating magic over time.

Another explanation could be that pearl was one of the celestial bodies, and traveling domains means moving across the sky? Maybe it was original comet, not split and not yet red from the sun's effect, pearly white, and it brought magic just by crossing near Planetos like it could be case now. Hundred wives could be stars, if moved across sky it could look like they are carrying it.

Some good ideas here. I've noticed the connection between pearls and golden age things. For instance:

The sight made Aeron’s heart beat faster. Nagga had been the first sea dragon, the mightiest ever to rise from the waves. She fed on krakens and leviathans and drowned whole islands in her wrath, yet the Grey King had slain her and the Drowned God had changed her bones to stone so that men might never cease to wonder at the courage of the first of kings. Nagga’s ribs became the beams and pillars of his longhall, just as her jaws became his throne. For a thousand years and seven he reigned here , Aeron recalled. Here he took his mermaid wife and planned his wars against the Storm God. From here he ruled both stone and salt, wearing robes of woven seaweed and a tall pale crown made from Nagga’s teeth . But that was in the dawn of days, when mighty men still dwelt on earth and sea. The hall had been warmed by Nagga’s living fire, which the Grey King had made his thrall. On its walls hung tapestries woven from silver seaweed most pleasing to the eyes. The Grey King’s warriors had feasted on the bounty of the sea at a table in the shape of a great starfish, whilst seated upon thrones carved from mother- of- pearl. Gone, all the glory gone . Men were smaller now. Their lives had grown short. The Storm God drowned Nagga’s fire after the Grey King’s death, the chairs and tapestries had been stolen, the roof and walls had rotted away. Even the Grey King’s great throne of fangs had been swallowed by the sea.

The Pearl Emperor was also the one who supposedly built the Five Forts. Then later on, in Yi Ti's history, the nine pearl-white emperors gave Yi Ti 130 years of peace and prosperity (heartening back to the dawn age glory?).

The knight wore silver armor, his greaves and gauntlet inlaid with niello to suggest flowing fronds of seaweed. The helm beneath his arm was the head of the merling king, with a crown of mother- of- pearl and a jutting beard of jet and jade. His own beard was as grey as the winter sea. Davos rose. “May I know your name, ser?” “Ser Marlon Manderly.”

The other one that is kind of similar is this story of the Fisher Queens of the Silver Sea and their "floating palace that made its way endlessly around its shores." This calls to mind your idea of the pearl palanquin being a celestial body of some kind, and the 100 wives being stars. I definitely think those are both astronomy references, I'm just not sure exactly what. The pearl may be an aquatic reference, since pearls come from oysters (and thus the ocean).

[LmL]

Big delivery LmL, very well written. I've read only the 1st 3 so far.

Just one question and one remark for now.

Why do you believe Euron saw statues? I'm not sure if material representations (ie statues) still exist somewhere. I would rather expect a vision. Possibly after drinking the stuff of the Warlocks. I would also believe that what Daenerys saw was the living emperors, not statues.

This is totally possible.. Euron referred to statues, so Itook him at his word. He may have seen a vision of the Great Emperors, perhaps, but he describes statues made of gold with gemstone eyes - that sounds like a statue, not a person.

Dany obviously did not see statues.

I'm still not convinced the LN was due to a comet striking a moon and raining debris on the planet. The incoming Winter, like all winters, is apparently predicted by the measters, by observing the sky. Maybe the LN is different, but I would suppose not. My interpretation is that normal winters would be the Sun remaining low on the horizon and giving little light. And the LN would be the Sun remaining below the horizon, producing the equivalent of a polar night. I agree, however, that something fell from the Sky. It created the Shadow Lands. And by some totally unexplained and totally non scientific way, it modified the course of the Sun. My problem is that a comet collision cannot explain the irregular but repetitive winters, could not be predicted by maesters. While I would believe the LN is an extremely powerful winter. The irregular Sun trajectory would explain why summers (Sun too high and too long in the sky every day, giving too much heat) and winters alternate with proportional durations. The greater the oscillations, the stronger and longer the summers and winters.

I have a pretty simple explanation for this. First of all, the season used to be normal, I am almost certain. The two moons were an ice moon and a fire moon (a future part breaks this down in detail), and when the fire moon was destroyed and the heart of summer corrupted (oops - you haven't gotten to that part, keep reading), that caused the seasons to become unbalanced, and had to do with causing the Long Night.

Let me know what you think when you get to the end, and thanks very much for the compliment. :)

[BalerionTheCat]

Had to admit I think it makes sense Saffron Straits implies more cities and such in the far far east. And it's clear that Asshai was alive at some point, so yeah. Cool.

One question: Do Ulthos connects with Essos? Or is it a part of Sothoryos? Or is it a big island? Or a whole new continent? If the word "strait" is accurate, the straits would be a channel to access the east coast of Essos. However, it seems to have never been explored. Maybe the Bloodless Men and other pleasing inhabitants make the coast totally inhospitable. Maybe ships sailing west into the Sunset sea reached this coast. But their crews died when they attempted to trade or to explore.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Why do you believe Euron saw statues? I'm not sure if material representations (ie statues) still exist somewhere. I would rather expect a vision. Possibly after drinking the stuff of the Warlocks. I would also believe that what Daenerys saw was the living emperors, not statues.

I would expect Braavos and Vaes Dothrak to have these statues.

[LmL]

This.

I've read some of your essays and wow - congratulations! I could flatter them even more, but I think you're well aware how great they are.

If Daenerys is a good figure, the one who could bring balance as the reborn Amethyst Empress, who do you think is the ultimate 'bad guy'? The Azor Ahai reborn? Maybe you've already said it, and I've missed it, so if that's the truth, please repeat it. If not, I really am curious what your opinion on this is.

its really hard to say, because even though the Bloodstone Emperor / Azor Ahai was the "Prince of darkness" for a while, causing and taking advantage of the Long Night, he still may have had a role to play in the greater balance. I do think his sword, this dark Lightbringer of shadow fire magic, made with the sun drinking black moon stone, was the same sword that was used by the Last Hero against the Others, the dragonsteel. I am not sure if the Emperor lost his sword in Westeros after being defeated, or if he himself became the Last Hero and went and fought the Others (possible redemption arc here).

I think it may be more accurate to think of each character having a personal war or decision to make between harmony and chaos. Jon has all the Azor Ahai symbolism around him, no doubt, but will he do the same thing as the first Azor Ahai, or make the right choice this time? Will Dany fulfil the legacy of the Amethyst Empress and make a noble sacrifice, or will she fulfill the Azor Ahai conquering dragon legacy? Fire and blood? I think she can take either path at this point.

[LmL]

One question: Do Ulthos connects with Essos? Or is it a part of Sothoryos? Or is it a big island? Or a whole new continent? If the word "strait" is accurate, the straits would be a channel to access the east coast of Essos. However, it seems to have never been explored. Maybe the Bloodless Men and other pleasing inhabitants make the coast totally inhospitable. Maybe ships sailing west into the Sunset sea reached this coast. But their crews died when they attempted to trade or to explore.

There could be environmental problems due to the corruption of the shadowlands, akin to Valyria's smoking sea or the toxic river Ash. Perhaps the shadowlands go on too far, and it's hard to sail that far with no ports and no freshwater (rainwater may be polluted). Perhaps the trade routes simply collapsed when Asshai suffered the Long Night cataclysm, and only the name survives. The Saffron could have been growing on the Shadowlands peninsula itself, and the trade flowed to the east - no saffron anymore because it's a wasteland.

[BalerionTheCat]

This is totally possible.. Euron referred to statues, so Itook him at his word. He may have seen a vision of the Great Emperors, perhaps, but he describes statues made of gold with gemstone eyes - that sounds like a statue, not a person.

Ok, "gods made of gold with gemstone eyes" make you believe he was describing statues. Gold would last thousands of years without problem, if protected and no thief trying to melt the gold. As the "gemstone eyes" is sometimes figurative, I thought the gold was also figurative, representing the hair or skin color, or a makeup to look like made of gold.

[BalerionTheCat]

There could be environmental problems due to the corruption of the shadowlands, akin to Valyria's smoking sea or the toxic river Ash. Perhaps the shadowlands go on too far, and it's hard to sail that far with no ports and no freshwater (rainwater may be polluted). Perhaps the trade routes simply collapsed when Asshai suffered the Long Night cataclysm, and only the name survives. The Saffron could have been growing on the Shadowlands peninsula itself, and the trade flowed to the east - no saffron anymore because it's a wasteland.

Yes, I don't know if the color is indicative, but Ulthos (and the straits itself) seem to be covered also by the Shadow. So, maybe impassable. But on Essos itself, the Shadow doesn't seem to extend east after the Mountains of the Morn.

[LmL]

I would expect Braavos and Vaes Dothrak to have these statues.

Yes, I would think so, but Arya does not seem to see them, although she does see the lion of night statue:

Statues of them stood along the walls, massive and threatening. Around their feet red candles flickered, as dim as distant stars. The nearest was a marble woman twelve feet tall. Real tears were trickling from her eyes, to fill the bowl she cradled in her arms. Beyond her was a man with a lion’s head seated on a throne, carved of ebony.

[LmL]

Ok, "gods made of gold with gemstone eyes" make you believe he was describing statues. Gold would last thousands of years without problem, if protected and no thief trying to melt the gold. As the "gemstone eyes" is sometimes figurative, I thought the gold was also figurative, representing the hair or skin color, or a makeup to look like made of gold.

I do think the gold of the statues could refer to skin color, but it could also refer to the cloth of gold which the emperors wore.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Yes, I would think so, but Arya does not seem to see them, although she does see the lion of night statue:

Yes, she did however note there were thirty gods in all:

Thirty different gods stood along the walls, surrounded by their little lights. The Weeping Woman was the favorite of old women, Arya saw; rich men preferred the Lion of Night, poor men the Hooded Wayfarer. Soldiers lit candles to Bakkalon, the Pale Child, sailors to the Moon-Pale Maiden and the Merling King. The Stranger had his shrine as well, though hardly anyone ever came to him. Most of the time only a single candle stood flickering at his feet. The kindly man said it did not matter. “He has many faces, and many ears to hear.”

[LmL]

Yes, she did however note there were thirty gods in all:

Oh yes it's definitely possible they are there, although I'm not sure they let Euron waltz in and scope out the place, you know? But then again, it is likely he hired a faceless man to kill Balon, so he may have gone to Bravos. Very possible.

When I first started searching for gemstone eye stuff, I thought that Arya had seen the golden statues, but it was Euron. I'm curious about some l fthe others - who is the moon oale maiden. The weeping woman, and the pale child?

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Oh yes it's definitely possible they are there, although I'm not sure they let Euron waltz in and scope out the place, you know? But then again, it is likely he hired a faceless man to kill Balon, so he may have gone to Bravos. Very possible.

When I first started searching for gemstone eye stuff, I thought that Arya had seen the golden statues, but it was Euron. I'm curious about some l fthe others - who is the moon oale maiden. The weeping woman, and the pale child?

Not exactly what I was looking for, but interesting:

“Ahead,” Ser Jorah answered. “Under the mountain.” Beyond the horse gate, plundered gods and stolen heroes loomed to either side of them. The forgotten deities of dead cities brandished their broken thunderbolts at the sky as Dany rode her silver past their feet. Stone kings looked down on her from their thrones, their faces chipped and stained, even their names lost in the mists of time. Lithe young maidens danced on marble plinths, draped only in flowers, or poured air from shattered jars. Monsters stood in the grass beside the road; black iron dragons with jewels for eyes, roaring griffins, manticores with their barbed tails poised to strike, and other beasts she could not name. Some of the statues were so lovely they took her breath away, others so misshapen and terrible that Dany could scarcely bear to look at them. Those, Ser Jorah said, had likely come from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai. “So many,” she said as her silver stepped slowly onward, “and from so many lands.”

Dragons with jewels for eyes :cool4:

[LmL]

Dragons with jewels for eyes :cool4:

EGADS!! How did I miss this one??? Wow, that's... That's... A black iron dragon with gemstone eyes?? RUFKM?

I love you Crowfood's daughter, I don't care what anyone says about your dad's smell or his illiteracy, I say he's true blue. Remind me to buy him a star sapphire for that eye next time I'm in Qarth.

You saw this, right? I posted it up thread. You've probably seen it, but I thought it was cool.

The knight wore silver armor, his greaves and gauntlet inlaid with niello to suggest flowing fronds of seaweed. The helm beneath his arm was the head of the merling king, with a crown of mother- of- pearl and a jutting beard of jet and jade. His own beard was as grey as the winter sea. Davos rose. May I know your name, ser? Ser Marlon Manderly.

I wonder if that matches the description of the Merling King statue in the HoB&W? Arya doesn't describe it.

[LmL]

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llkxrsj08n1qfe7z2o1_r1_500.gif

Why thank you very much Ser.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

You saw this, right? I posted it up thread. You've probably seen it, but I thought it was cool.

The knight wore silver armor, his greaves and gauntlet inlaid with niello to suggest flowing fronds of seaweed. The helm beneath his arm was the head of the merling king, with a crown of mother- of- pearl and a jutting beard of jet and jade. His own beard was as grey as the winter sea. Davos rose. May I know your name, ser? Ser Marlon Manderly.

I wonder if that matches the description of the Merling King statue in the HoB&W? Arya doesn't describe it.

Yes, I pointed this one out to you awhile back. No matches, but the Merling King statues hasn't been described as of yet although the Merling King on Petyr's ship wore a gold crown.

[LmL]

Yes, I pointed this one out to you awhile back. No matches, but the Merling King statues hasn't been described as of yet although the Merling King on Petyr's ship wore a gold crown.

Ah yes I remember now. I was just looking for a description of Petyr's ship but couldn't find it. Euron's figurehead on his shipnhas the mother of pearl eyes though.

[Equilibrium]

The other one that is kind of similar is this story of the Fisher Queens of the Silver Sea and their "floating palace that made its way endlessly around its shores." This calls to mind your idea of the pearl palanquin being a celestial body of some kind, and the 100 wives being stars. I definitely think those are both astronomy references, I'm just not sure exactly what. The pearl may be an aquatic reference, since pearls come from oysters (and thus the ocean).

Fisher Queens can refer to stars, because fisherman and sailors use stars to navigate and their life depends on them, so they rule over them. All is good when stars ruled, Fisher Queens or Hundred Queens! Maybe sequence is wrong after all humans meddled in affairs of the stars wanting to "usurp" their rule so everything went south. Silver sea is also quite peculiar, and can refer to starry sky.

Btw reading your explanation about end of the trade across Saffron Straits is like reading my own mind.

I have yet to hear your opinion about moonsingers, them being connected to the moon, to the singing (according to the Rhoynar legend singing is key to defeating LN, and COTF which helped end LN in Northern myth are known as singers) and being in the territory that was without the doubt in the GEOTD.