Bakker XXXV: Tyrant of Rat Nation, Worshipped as Rat of Rats

[Guest]

I've done some head-scratching but still don't think I quite follow.

I'll use spoilers just cause:

So I get that the Spires took the guy kind of like they took Akka but then let him go? But still kind of possessed him somehow which is where the weird flashback came from near the end with the Grandmaster re-appearing? Still not sure that I follow what happened.

I did find the little philosophizing about the rapacious intellect pretty great and very Bakker

[Happy Ent]

You’re correct.

How do you kill the King of High Ainon? He is no fool, so anybody who is allowed to come close to him is expected to be checked by one of the Few. We see that interrogation. So you can’t send a sorcerer. You also can’t magically compulse somebody, because that would (apparently) leave a mark. However, apparently you can compulse somebody’s possessed form. And that leaves no mark on the unpossessed form. So the evil wizard magicks Eryelk when Eryelk has morphed (after taunting him into it) and then sets him free. The wizard knows (as does all of Carythusal) that the queen will send for Eryelk. Also, the king seems to be routinely in attendance for those carnal adventures.

There is a bit about a pit opening, both when captive Eryelk is possessed and at the end, which I don’t quite get.

I think it’s very nice. Cute detail of the magic system, used in an intelligent way by the denizens of the fictional universe. Much like False Sun in that respect (“how do you kill a level 80 sorcerer?”)

[Hello World]

Man... I miss the days where a bunch of sorcerers could just ‘flicker into existence’ and destroy one of the most powerful men in Eärwa. I guess the SS didn’t have Moënghus.

[Madness]

One small nitpick contention from your spoiler-free review, HE:

As for the big picture, the story plays during the height of the scholastic wars and gives us some political machinations of historical import. And there are interesting insights into Bakker’s “magic system” re possession, the Mark, and demons.

Are we spoiler tagging now? Lol - what says the Westerosi noosphere?

The story takes place in 3801. In text, Ratakila reflects "Ekyannus XIV, had been baying for the destruction of the Schools for years now, ever since becoming Shriah of the Thousand Temples." Now TTT Glossary (quoted from PON Wiki) notes that the Scholastic Wars "were a series of holy wars waged against the Schools from 3796 to 3818" but I don't believe that it's quite the "height" of the Scholastic Wars - for instance, Ekyannus probably hadn't yet officially declared a Holy War against the Schools a la Maithanet. The further entry

Mysunsai tells us that three minor Anagogic schools become the Mysunsai in 3804, implying heavy losses. So I don't think that the Scholastic Wars are in full swing yet when the Scarlet Spires use Ratakila to kick off this coup in Ainon (in all likelihood, Ekyannus would use this Ainoni tragedy as propaganda). The Mandate probably aren't yet involved in the decade-plus long siege at Atyersus, for one.

Also, generally, speaking to both your posts, Trisk and HE:

I'm not sure what to make of Shinurta's comment about "You do not recall what you do, when Gilgaöl seizes your soul." Ratakila himself decides that "They knew him not at all, the Holca realized - or nothing of the Incarnal, at least" earlier on in the story when beset by the first Scarlet Schoolman, Nagamezer. And throughout the story it seems fairly clear that the Incarnal is the mundane result of having two hearts (and basically Bakker's version of the Bloody-Nine) - whatever that means in context of Earwa (hearts being the complicated crux of so much speculation to begin with). If two random witches (supposing that's what they were) know of the Holca legend, it stands to reason that Shinurta would.

Otherwise, I basically concur with HE's reading, though, despite these minor gripes.

Also... "easter egg" worthy (?):

Stitti is

Heramari Stitramoses - perhaps related to our boy, Heramari Iyokus?

EDIT:

Man... I miss the days where a bunch of sorcerers could just ‘flicker into existence’ and destroy one of the most powerful men in Eärwa. I guess the SS didn’t have Moënghus.

Ah, but the Cishaurim were young then: though, interestingly enough the first Fanim Jihad against the Nansur only ended in 3771.

[Guest]

Man... I miss the days where a bunch of sorcerers could just ‘flicker into existence’ and destroy one of the most powerful men in Eärwa. I guess the SS didn’t have Moënghus.

I sometimes wonder...why couldn't Moe take the Cishaurim and flicker into the Ark and take out the Consult leadership? Too difficult of a trek without a Great Ordeal in tow?

[kuenjato]

I sometimes wonder...why couldn't Moe take the Cishaurim and flicker into the Ark and take out the Consult leadership? Too difficult of a trek without a Great Ordeal in tow?

Because Moe was limited in scope and ability, despite the conspiracy theories bandied endlessly around these parts. He blinded himself (thus would not be able to 'see' the horizon) and in any case was a bit of a second-rate, lacking the passion that the Cis operate on. Plus, it's a really long way. Kelly was exhausted by his one return trip in TJE, and that was just a meager portion.

[Happy Ent]

For the record, I don’t buy an SS attack by teleportation at all. My reading is that they just walked there, much like Akka with Zin.

[Guest]

Because Moe was limited in scope and ability, despite the conspiracy theories bandied endlessly around these parts. He blinded himself (thus would not be able to 'see' the horizon) and in any case was a bit of a second-rate, lacking the passion that the Cis operate on. Plus, it's a really long way. Kelly was exhausted by his one return trip in TJE, and that was just a meager portion.

I actually worry for lockesnow's mental health should all the Moe theorizing come to naught in TUC.

ETA: @ HE - While that certainly seems possible, the thrown open door of light kind of suggests teleportation.

[Hello World]

He blinded himself (thus would not be able to 'see' the horizon)

Cishaurim see without eyes. The Third Sight and all. In fact, Scrying was one of the things that Moënghus excelled at, which is how he knew where he had to open up the portal in the Scarlet Spires’s stronghold.

[Anatúrinbor]

I sometimes wonder...why couldn't Moe take the Cishaurim and flicker into the Ark and take out the Consult leadership? Too difficult of a trek without a Great Ordeal in tow?

I presume it's for the same reason that Kellhus doesn't do it. Whatever that is.

Cishaurim see without eyes.

Not exactly. They see with their eyes, not their gouged sockets, but their actual eyes.

they could feel the Cishaurim's plucked eyes--brilliant, pure, like a lamplight before a silvered mirror--search for them from beyond the horizon.

We have seen this, woman. We have seen this with our missing eyes!

For the record, I think that Moe was behind the attack on the SS, whether it was teleportation or something else I'm not sure (but I lean toward teleportation). The biggest clue, IMO, is (I don't recall who first pointed this out--probably Lockesnow) is that as soon as Kellhus says that Moe tried to stop the Cishaurim from assassinating Sasheoka, he trips. In any other world, that would mean nothing, but Earwa is a world filled with meaning. Kellhus tripping is an indication that he had just made his first mistake. Not to mention that the alternative, that he tried to stop them and failed, is unlikely.

[Hello World]

Achmian, btw, thinks it TDTCB that there was no way the Mandate could have killed the GM of the SS in the inner sanctums which are littered with Wards (even though he obviously knows about the way of shadow).

And besides, if it were that simple, such assassinations would have been a lot more common.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I think Moe's water was actually stronger than he lets on, and that Kellhus just assumes he has drastically diminished power compared to a normal Cish. But then in that entire conversation it's tough to say when he's simply humoring Kellhus and when he's being more truthful. He pretty effortlessly used it to kill one of the skin spies with Cnauir. Sure, we never see him blast it out of his forehead like the primaries in Shimeh, but he was pretty quick with it when he killed the skin spy.

[Guest]

I think Moe's water was actually stronger than he lets on, and that Kellhus just assumes he has drastically diminished power compared to a normal Cish. But then in that entire conversation it's tough to say when he's simply humoring Kellhus and when he's being more truthful. He pretty effortlessly used it to kill one of the skin spies with Cnauir. Sure, we never see him blast it out of his forehead like the primaries in Shimeh, but he was pretty quick with it when he killed the skin spy.

Yeah, and it's interesting too that Moe gives Kellhus a mini-list of the things he's allegedly good at with the Psukhe, but lightning hands sure wasn't one of them.

Actually, whatever that move was, we've seen nothing like it from any of Pukhari in the books.

[lokisnow]

I presume it's for the same reason that Kellhus doesn't do it. Whatever that is.

Not exactly. They see with their eyes, not their gouged sockets, but their actual eyes.

For the record, I think that Moe was behind the attack on the SS, whether it was teleportation or something else I'm not sure (but I lean toward teleportation). The biggest clue, IMO, is (I don't recall who first pointed this out--probably Lockesnow) is that as soon as Kellhus says that Moe tried to stop the Cishaurim from assassinating Sasheoka, he trips. In any other world, that would mean nothing, but Earwa is a world filled with meaning. Kellhus tripping is an indication that he had just made his first mistake. Not to mention that the alternative, that he tried to stop them and failed, is unlikely.

Oh nice. Plucked eyes.

Also the ark skin is impervious. You can't just cast y=mx+b and slice it open. I imagine that also prevents teleportation in or out.

Remember the dream was interrupted just before we find out how seswatha and nay get into the ark. Was the mysterious light part of the dream or part of the wakening?

I think Moe's water was actually stronger than he lets on, and that Kellhus just assumes he has drastically diminished power compared to a normal Cish. But then in that entire conversation it's tough to say when he's simply humoring Kellhus and when he's being more truthful. He pretty effortlessly used it to kill one of the skin spies with Cnauir. Sure, we never see him blast it out of his forehead like the primaries in Shimeh, but he was pretty quick with it when he killed the skin spy.

Yeah the way moe inhumes the skin spy with sorcery totally puts the lie to kellhus' assertions of cishaurim metaphysics and moes weakness in said.

Note that if kellhus believes these things the outcome is favorable to him. Therefore it is something he probably wants to believe or needs to believe.

He's also hypothesizing from incomplete datasets that are profoundly skewed by inrithi biases in fundamental assumptions. He's also prodded by loss aversion because he's already taken the gnosis and doesn't want to yield any credence to losing it or acknowledging it was not the best choice.

When kellhus accuses of moe of falling into a dead end he's really just projecting his own insecurities onto the other. We know this is true because the text literally repeats ad infinitum that the gnosis is a dead end resulting in damnation. The gnosis is almost like a trap, baited to attract them and seductively priming their intellectual excitement, shortcircuiting their dunyain deductive reasoning. Basically the gnosis is a new iPhone model to an apple addict.

Finally, extend the metaphor of water. Water fills empty volumes and finds its own level. Dunyain seek to empty themselves, they should be ideal candidates.

The passion assertion is a desperate assumption kellhus needs to believe in order to convince himself he can best his dad. It's a very flattering assertion.

But ask yourself, "hey dad, with thirty years how come you never drank from this poisoned chalice I just chugged? clearly you were too hasty in your rush to judgement, lol."

[lokisnow]

Double post doh

But I shall seize this space to say that our easter Sunday sermon was amazing. the pastor started off talking about how the universe was within gods creation not Outside it.

Heh.

Then he spoke of how time was within eternity and eternity was within gods creation not Outside it.

Then he gabbled on about relativity for a bit. Then he elucidated the distinction between resuscitation (Lazarus et al) and resurrection (only jesus).

Then he went all scathing on the intellectual tradition of an ethereal bodyless soul and immortality existing only in thus spirit state, citing that the text says explicitly we get an immortal body in the end.

Pretty freaking epic.

[Callan S.]

Depends if dunyain training dampens emotions like it seemed to with Moe.

If so, then the pshuke is useless to a dunyain.

I'm assuming Kellhus takes the gnosis with the intention of outrunning damnation/the eternal torture machine.

[lokisnow]

Depends if dunyain training dampens emotions like it seemed to with Moe.

If so, then the pshuke is useless to a dunyain.

I'm assuming Kellhus takes the gnosis with the intention of outrunning damnation/the eternal torture machine.

That's the eternal classic story of human failure right there.

To the former, if you knew nothing of the gnosis how easy would it be to assert that it was "nothing" more than singing the passion and emotions of God's voice, completely lacking in the totally rigorous intellectual demands of the psukhe? It fits all the evidence so it must be a sorcery of passion, not a "real" sorcery of the mind

[Callan S.]

Lost me? Who are you saying is asserting/assuming that?

[Happy Ent]

Do we have a glossary for Knife? I find it very confusing. Here’s my best attempt, please correct:

The Holca

Holca, northman tribe whose lands border on the river Wernma

Kumrûm, a slave entrepot above the Sixth Cataract (of the Wernma, presumably)

Thurror Eryelk, barbarian of the Holca tribe, pit fighter, called Most Violent Son of Wiglic, the Hewer, Ratakila (ain., “Bloodmane”)

Heramari Stitramoses, called Stitti, slave trader, adoptive father of Eryelk, master of the Kumrûm, erstwhile a Royal Scribe to the king of Ainon

Moiar, father of Eryelk, died when Eryelk was four

Wiglic, legendary Holca warrior, seen as the ancestor of all Holca

Vampire, Eryelk’s sword

The Scarlet Spires

Kwi Shinurta, Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires

Nagamezer, sorcerer of the Scarlet Spires

Marakiz, called Kiz, highest tower of the Scarlet Spires

Ainon

Sarothesser IX, King of Ainon

Horziah, Prince of Ainon

Sumiloam, Queen of Ainon

Ûsulares, Shrial Emissary of the Queen of Ainon, Collegian of Luthymae

Isil’alma, prostitute in Ainon

Momemn

Ekyannus XIV, Shriah of the Thousand Temples

[Happy Ent]

This leaves Ratakila. It means “Bloodmane,” presumably in Ainoni. It’s used twice in the text to describe Eryelk, both times just before when he goes berserk. My reading is that it’s just another popular name for him, like The Hewer. No deeper meaning should be attached to it.

Then we have The Incarnal, “the patter of some unseen pulse”, also as “the aftermath of the Incarnal” and “The Incarnal always returned what it took”. It seems to describe a process, or a state of being. So it’s Eryelk’s own way of describing his “going berserk”. It is unclear if all Holca do this, or if Eryelk is particularly gifted. There could also be three stages: normal Eryelk, aroused Eryelk (where he currently fancies referring to himself by his Ainoni monicker, Ratakila), and completely-bonkers Eryelk (where he loses all sense of self, and we never get to see him from the Eryelk POV). Any of the last two states could be the Incarnal. All Holca might go to stage 2, but only Eryelk to stage 3. Stage 3 might be an actual possession by Gilgaöl. We simply don’t know (and Bakker will never tell us).