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Bakker XXXV: Tyrant of Rat Nation, Worshipped as Rat of Rats


Madness

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If so, then the pshuke is useless to a dunyain.

No, the elements of the Psukhe that required subtlety, coupled with his Dunyain abilities, are all that Moenghus needed. But if you mean useless in terms of being able to destroy things with it, then that could be true, except that he did not need that: he has plenty of people to do that for him, like the Cishaurim, the Thousand Temples, and Kellhus.

Moenghus' style was that he controlled different factions and manipulated people from behind the scenes. Like Shaeonanra, he's not stupid enough as to take the field himself--nor does he need to. (And there's a great example btw in the fact that Shae destroyed Titirga even though he was not a match for him in terms of sorcerous power.)

Moenghus had to get the Psukhe. Not only because it is everything that he needed to accomplish the above, but because--unlike the Gnosis--it is an invisible sorcery. Which is vital to him. Moenghus choosing a sorcery that leaves a Mark, meaning he can't watch and manipulate people without being seen, would have been a real dead end for him. Not being able to blow things up is not.

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Nice, HE.



Heremari Stitramoses, called Stitti, slave trader, adoptive father of Eryelk, master of the Kumrûm, erstwhile a Royal Scribe to the king of Ainon


Heramari*



This leaves Ratakila. It means “Bloodmane,” presumably in Ainoni. It’s used twice in the text to describe Eryelk, both times just before when he goes berserk. My reading is that it’s just another popular name for him, like The Hewer. No deeper meaning should be attached to it.


TTT Glossary begins with a couple paragraphs about transliteration and translation. In it, the Sheyic version of the Ainoni name for the Scarlet Spires is given as "Retorum Ratas" and in brackets reveals "Ratas" to be "red."



The only other capitalized pronouns that I think you've missed were:



The Flush:



"The barbarian's second heart kicked deep in his chest. Boma-bom.



The first of the Flush crept into his pallor, line upon web-thin line, a scribble of faint crimson across his skin. Were this pick the mere drunkard he appeared to be, the matter already would have been concluded. But he was not."



Can we assume that this is what people call "seeing the Incarnal" when not knowing what it is?



And then:



The Sarcal (which is actually only capitalized when the "old woman" refers to it, not when Ratakila thinks on it later en route to Kiz): A paralytic of some kind.


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The blue hands thing could have been similar to what Inrau did to the skin-spy in TDTCB. I didn't see it as proof that he was that powerful at the Psukhe.

On the other hand, the dreams he sent the Dunyain were glimpsed in "cataracts of detail". Which seems to substantiate his claim that he was pretty good at the cants of Calling, and contradicts his whining about Ishual lying across the world from Shimeh. (That's assuming that he was in Shimeh when he sent the dreams, and not in the north.)

Anyway, when it comes to whether we should assume that Moe was telling the truth to Kellhus or not I think that Cnaiur's thoughts here apply,

The thought struck Cnaiür that Dûnyain monks might be even more inhuman than he had thought. What if things such as truth and meaning had no meaning for them? What if all they did was move and move, like something reptilian, snaking through circumstance after circumstance, consuming soul after soul for the sake of consumption alone?

Pretty much. For Moe there is no such thing as "telling the truth". He told Kellhus what he needed him to hear. How much of that was truthful is something that he probably didn't even consider.

Truth is for lesser souls...

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OK, OK, no free will. I agree, Bakkeranity is hard to overcome.

Looks like I missed a big debate, because I actually think every ensouled being in Earwa has free will and that Bakker meant it to be read that way...

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I was being sarcastic, I don't have many facts to back up the existence of free will,but I believe the characters do have it.

I do think it's important that the Outside is atemporal and souls are just the Outside participating in the linear time of the Inward. Beyond that I distinctly remember Bakker talking about this on his blog with a line akin to "On Earwa there are souls. Here, we can only hope."

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I do think it's important that the Outside is atemporal and souls are just the Outside participating in the linear time of the Inward. Beyond that I distinctly remember Bakker talking about this on his blog with a line akin to "On Earwa there are souls. Here, we can only hope."

I remember you putting fort both of those before. What about my example with Akka killing Nil'gaccas? I don't see that being part of any Conditioned Ground, or for that matter,why would any one want that? Also, if Kelhuss/Moe purpose for the Skin Eaters was to keep an eye on Akka, well, didn't turn out so well.
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The blue hands thing could have been similar to what Inrau did to the skin-spy in TDTCB. I didn't see it as proof that he was that powerful at the Psukhe.

On the other hand, the dreams he sent the Dunyain were glimpsed in "cataracts of detail". Which seems to substantiate his claim that he was pretty good at the cants of Calling, and contradicts his whining about Ishual lying across the world from Shimeh. (That's assuming that he was in Shimeh when he sent the dreams, and not in the north.)

Anyway, when it comes to whether we should assume that Moe was telling the truth to Kellhus or not I think that Cnaiur's thoughts here apply,

Pretty much. For Moe there is no such thing as "telling the truth". He told Kellhus what he needed him to hear. How much of that was truthful is something that he probably didn't even consider.

Truth is for lesser souls...

Agreed. I feel the biggest mistake I made as a reader first time through was in never deploying kellhus' tactics back on him. Once you start going kellhus on kellhus the doc savage ender Wiggin esque ubermensch omnipotence of his character type starts to rapidly melt away.

And it's fairly well indicated in the moe-ologue when kellhus gets manipulated because moe either agrees with him and or flatters him, both of which are kellhus two favorite tactics.

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No, the elements of the Psukhe that required subtlety, coupled with his Dunyain abilities, are all that Moenghus needed. But if you mean useless in terms of being able to destroy things with it, then that could be true, except that he did not need that: he has plenty of people to do that for him, like the Cishaurim, the Thousand Temples, and Kellhus.

Moenghus' style was that he controlled different factions and manipulated people from behind the scenes. Like Shaeonanra, he's not stupid enough as to take the field himself--nor does he need to. (And there's a great example btw in the fact that Shae destroyed Titirga even though he was not a match for him in terms of sorcerous power.)

Moenghus had to get the Psukhe. Not only because it is everything that he needed to accomplish the above, but because--unlike the Gnosis--it is an invisible sorcery. Which is vital to him. Moenghus choosing a sorcery that leaves a Mark, meaning he can't watch and manipulate people without being seen, would have been a real dead end for him. Not being able to blow things up is not.

There is no style. There is only the means that meets the end.

Unless his end included being turned to salt, he failed to meet his designated end by the means he took. I take it Akka was put into Kellhuses presence to impart the gnosis - it wasn't just hapstance. Because the psukhe wasn't going to cut it in regards to the overall goal.

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The blue hands thing could have been similar to what Inrau did to the skin-spy in TDTCB. I didn't see it as proof that he was that powerful at the Psukhe.

On the other hand, the dreams he sent the Dunyain were glimpsed in "cataracts of detail". Which seems to substantiate his claim that he was pretty good at the cants of Calling, and contradicts his whining about Ishual lying across the world from Shimeh. (That's assuming that he was in Shimeh when he sent the dreams, and not in the north.)

Anyway, when it comes to whether we should assume that Moe was telling the truth to Kellhus or not I think that Cnaiur's thoughts here apply,

Pretty much. For Moe there is no such thing as "telling the truth". He told Kellhus what he needed him to hear. How much of that was truthful is something that he probably didn't even consider.

Truth is for lesser souls...

Agreed. I feel the biggest mistake I made as a reader first time through was in never deploying kellhus' tactics back on him. Once you start going kellhus on kellhus the doc savage ender Wiggin esque ubermensch omnipotence of his character type starts to rapidly melt away.

And it's fairly well indicated in the moe-ologue when kellhus gets manipulated because moe either agrees with him and or flatters him, both of which are kellhus two favorite tactics.

I don't think anyone disputes that Moe's manipulating Kellhus, or that he just tells him what ever he needs to. Of course he does. What I wonder about, each time i read that scene, is what's the truth and what isn't? And despite the Cnauir quote, I still feel it's worthwhile to go through the Kellhus/ Moe scene and think about what's true there and what isn't. Particularly because it's so loaded, and the last Kellhus POV.

As far as the stuff Moe does to the skin spy being similar to what Inrau does, there are a couple of things I wonder about. I've always kind of read the Inrau part as either it was early in the story and the metaphysics of sorcery weren't really set in stone yet, basically Bakker let it slide; or it's some kind of divinely sourced magic through Onkis. So does that mean that what Moe does isn't the Psukhe but him being an avatar, or being 'ridden' by a god like Cnauir by Gilgaol? Or is it both, and the Cish really are the one true (or a true) faith?

@Callan - have we actually seen a Cish turn into salt? The descriptions of them getting hit with chorae seem to differ slightly from the other schools, and I don't think it's every actually mentioned that a Cish turns into salt. They just burn up in a flash.

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I don't think anyone disputes that Moe's manipulating Kellhus, or that he just tells him what ever he needs to. Of course he does. What I wonder about, each time i read that scene, is what's the truth and what isn't? And despite the Cnauir quote, I still feel it's worthwhile to go through the Kellhus/ Moe scene and think about what's true there and what isn't. Particularly because it's so loaded, and the last Kellhus POV.

The difficulty I have is in not knowing how Dunyain at Ishual ever work together (let alone for two thousand years) to use as any baseline to see how Moe intented to work with Kellhus, rather than work on Kellhus.

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@Callan - have we actually seen a Cish turn into salt? The descriptions of them getting hit with chorae seem to differ slightly from the other schools, and I don't think it's every actually mentioned that a Cish turns into salt. They just burn up in a flash.

I thought there was some mention of it in the assault on Shimeh. Off the top of my head I can't think of a direct example.

I wonder if a salted schoolman still bears a mark?

One thing I wondered is how a Dunyain able to finely control his metabolism hasn't managed to find some passion in thirty years. If lack of passion is really a problem than controlled insanity is a winning strategy.

Wont that get in the way of being a self moving soul?

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One thing I wondered is how a Dunyain able to finely control his metabolism hasn't managed to find some passion in thirty years. If lack of passion is really a problem than controlled insanity is a winning strategy.

Dunyain, don't, afaik, control their metabolism. That's something limited to the Bene Gesserit.

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There is no style. There is only the means that meets the end.

Nope. The end is one, but the crossings are infinite. Taking the Gnosis is not the only means to the end he had in mind.

Unless his end included being turned to salt, he failed to meet his designated end by the means he took.

I see you’re ignoring the scene between Moënghus and Cnaiür. Okay then. Sure, he was ‘turned into salt’.

The question is however, why does Moënghus need the Gnosis? And how is him getting the Psukhe a ‘dead end’?* I think there is a very good case to be made that he didn’t need anything more than the Psukhe. (That’s even assuming that the Gnosis is ‘more’ than the Psukhe.)

*Please don’t say ‘well he was turned into salt in the end so it was a dead end!’ Because it is clear that Moënghus brought Kellhus to him knowing what Kellhus was about to do, and he wasn’t salted.

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That's not the troubling part.

You couldn't know that the Psûkhe was a metaphysic of the heart, not the intellect. Of passion...

"So you let them blind you, only to find your powers proportionate to your vestigial passions. What you thought to be the Shortest Path was in fact a dead end."

So Moe let them blind him before he understood how the Psukhe worked? A Dunyain let the Cishaurim take away his own eyes without knowing the consequences? That's insane.

And why "couldn't" he know that the Psukhe is a metaphysics of the heart? Kellhus figured it out while talking to Achamian but Moe couldn't understand the metaphysics of the Cishruaim even though he was among them?

Honestly, if this is really how it happened then I would consider this almost a plot-hole.

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