Bakker XXXV: Tyrant of Rat Nation, Worshipped as Rat of Rats

[Ser Bryar Ashford]

This I believe is what is really important. Meppa talks about the universal religion, as has been stated. From the text, we see that has extreme power (Water), and I don't see Bakker introducing a character such as this, without him having any significance. IMHO, at some point, Meppa is gonna have a defining moment in the story. One of my favorite characters in any series is Cnaüir. So, is love to think a part of him lives on in Meppa, as well as Moe. Yes, its crackpot, and ultimately, I'd not believe it will matter one way or the other. Meppa will be important for what he represents to this story.

If Cnaiur comes back, which I hope he does, I think it'll be as the Consult's new horde-general grafted into some kind of hella-awesome war form, probably armored in corpses...

[Larry of the Lawn]

Off-topic but Aurax is Aurang's secret voice.

What exactly do you mean by that? Like the Kelmomas/Sammi(whoever)?

[Callan S.]

He's a minor character accompanying Fanayal in TJE and WLW. He's the last of the Cish and has no memory of who he is.

He has less screen time than Boba Fett, and inspires crackpots and tales of badassery in much the same way.

This explains much to me! Thank you :)

[Callan S.]

If Cnaiur comes back, which I hope he does, I think it'll be as the Consult's new horde-general grafted into some kind of hella-awesome war form, probably armored in corpses...

And penises. Valley of the penises stuff, Mr Garrison style

[Hello World]

For the record, what I find most interesting, and most baffling, about the Kellhus and Moenghus scene is the bit in the very beginning when Moe starts his monologue and his face is hidden in blackness or whatever, then at some point he leans forward and puts a cloth into his eye sockets and then leans back... Kellhus says that everything his father is doing must be for a reason. So what the hell was he doing there?

And all that water rushing, Moe's body steaming and him talking to Kellhus from the black. I'm not sure if they walked through a portal or not as someone said, but my guess is that there was some Psukhe stuff going on, and that Moe chose that location with all the rushing water to obscure whatever he was doing, since the Psukhe is usually described in terms of rushing water. Sure, the Psukhe is invisible to the few, but that's not useful if what Moe is doing can be seen with the naked eye.

Kellhus walked into a trap, the same way Titirga did in TFS. That whole bit where he goes into the mansion and has Moe lead him into the chamber he had prepared for him, too arrogant to think that Moe could do anything to harm him, is, IMO, a direct parallel to the way Titirga idiotically walked into the Mangaecca’s stronghold. In both instances, the visitor was by all accounts a lot more powerful than the host. And they had nothing to fear, after all, Titirga is the most powerful sorcerer ever, surely someone as pathetic as Shae couldn’t take him on? But both Shae and Moe were known for their subtlety.

I just came across some reactions to The False Sun, and some readers seem to have taken the moral of Titirga’s story to be that human sorcerers can be more powerful than their Nonman counterparts, and therefore Kellhus could be the most powerful badassest sorcerer in like ever. That could be technically true, but the larger point is that subtlety can be more useful than raw power, especially when power is coupled with boneheadedness. The whole “you reached a dead-end because you took the Psukhe” is utter nonsense.

[lokisnow]

Floob makes tapatalk sad! but now my laptop is repaired and I can post again.

But even if we assume that he didn’t, and that he really revealed the Skin-spies to them because he wanted to be patted on the back or something, the idea that the Cishaurim would immediately think “it’s the Scarlet Spires!!” makes little sense.

The Knife of Many Hands explains why the Cishaurim would have thought, "It's the Scarlet Spires!" pretty definitively. It also explains why the Emperor and the spires themselves all think it is sorcery related (because they're thinking it's markless daimos as in the Knife of Many Hands) of course, the author failed to explain any of that in text, despite perspectives from people who would know this. Perhaps because TKOMH is a massive retcon?

on the other hand, we can assume Kellhus leaped to this conclusion that the Cishaurim would suspect the Scarlet Spires because of their markless techniques with a demon in TKOMH because he's probably pumped information and history out of Eleazarus and Iyokus. Moenghus may have never had access to such secrets.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Also, The Consult was at both of those meetings. So, if indeed it was meant as a parallel, did Moe know that Cnaüir would show up with a few more Skin Spies? That's the one thing I can't get my head around with the Moe the Orchestrator theories. If he is the manipulator and still is in AE, is his goals different or the same as Kel's? How does he know what Kelhuss's goals are, or that their not working towards the same thing. Is he just still conditioning ground for Kelhuss? Doesn't feel that way, with the time the Great Ordeal is having.

I am leaning toward yes, Moe was the puppet master of PoN. But, if he has a part in AE, I haven't seen it and its not a big one. Though, what do I know, you guys do all the heavy lifting around here.

So, @HelloWorld, @Locke and whoever else subscribes to the theory of Moe still controlling the game in AE, what do you believe his end game to be? Where is he doing his manipulating from now? Where are the signs of Moe's presence? I am genuinely curious to know what you guys think about this, and to see whether or not it pans out in TUC. It all makes sense, I just can't see where Moe is still doing anything in AE, unless he indeed is Meppa.

ETA: rather than leaning towards, I believe you guys have more or less proven Moe was in control in PoN. I think the sound of waterfall, was the nail in the coffin on that theory.

[lokisnow]

TUC is where the simulation ends and the third series is set in the real world. It is known.

For the record, what I find most interesting, and most baffling, about the Kellhus and Moenghus scene is the bit in the very beginning when Moe starts his monologue and his face is hidden in blackness or whatever, then at some point he leans forward and puts a cloth into his eye sockets and then leans back... Kellhus says that everything his father is doing must be for a reason. So what the hell was he doing there?

And all that water rushing, Moe's body steaming and him talking to Kellhus from the black. I'm not sure if they walked through a portal or not as someone said, but my guess is that there was some Psukhe stuff going on, and that Moe chose that location with all the rushing water to obscure whatever he was doing, since the Psukhe is usually described in terms of rushing water. Sure, the Psukhe is invisible to the few, but that's not useful if what Moe is doing can be seen with the naked eye.

On a side note, it's funny that as soon as Kellhus walks in Moe begins to pointlessly retell Kellhus what he went through since coming to the Three Seas--stuff that Kellhus already knew--and then at some point when Kellhus asks him a question he says "why are you asking me what you already know?!" Trolling at its best.

Yes, I believe Nerdanel speculated before that the water imagery and massive amount of water indicated something was happening.

I've wondered if all that water was psukhe water--and a demonstration of power.

I've also noted that glacial water flows in an equatorial desert are a very unusual geographic feature of this nonman mansion.

But I never considered the glaringly obvious, that Moenghus established this chamber in order to use the water flows to hide his sorcerous manipulations. Using water to hide "water".

That makes so much sense that the purpose of the water was to fuck with kellhus perceptions, and water often fucks with kellhus' perceptions, look only to the prologue, where a babbling brook completely incapacitated him for days.

As for the the cloth to the eye sockets and the pink stains, people have wondered about it, but no one has come up with a good explanation. My best guess is that Moenghus blinded himself in that moment, and not before.

The parallel is obvious, Moenghus probably gained access to the secrets of the psukhe without the blinding just as Kellhus gained access to the secrets of the gnosis without the grasping.

Kellhus assumes Moenghus was blinded first. That is just stupid on pretty much every possible level. Moenghus blinds himself in that moment because he no longer needs eyes, having already assessed kellhus prior to the cloth to the eye sockets. He has to take away his eyes at this point so that kellhus will see what kellhus wants to see, it's all part of pulling kellhus strings.

[Melphis Amekia]

If I remember correctly, Mallahet is Moenghus's pseudonym as a Cishaurim, and he was sent to Xerius to make a deal. I also remember Xerius clearly mention Moe's eyes missing, as in those eye sockets without eyes made him shit-pants uncomfortable. Was that an illusion then?

[lokisnow]

Could be, Kellhus never notes any scars on Moenghus' arms. Cnaiur thinks quite a bit about Moenghus' arms and his near naked form in their encounter and never notes any scars on Moenghus' arms.

The point is that Mallahet may well have been another Maithanet, a useful body double.

Or, if Moenghus can heal literally, then he could have wiped away his own scars, and perhaps even regrown his eyes

Dude can skype across the planet, he can probably project a perfect simulacrum of a false face as well. However, would such a glamour be invisible when clutching a chorae? I don't think so, given that psatma's chorae didn't let her see through the glamoured spy.

[Anatúrinbor]

The parallel is obvious, Moenghus probably gained access to the secrets of the psukhe without the blinding

So is this why the Cishaurim were "fearful" of Moe's power according to Cememketri's rumors?

If I remember correctly, Mallahet is Moenghus's pseudonym as a Cishaurim, and he was sent to Xerius to make a deal. I also remember Xerius clearly mention Moe's eyes missing, as in those eye sockets without eyes made him shit-pants uncomfortable. Was that an illusion then?

The Mallahet scene has been bugging me since the last thread where it was pointed out how much Kellhus resembles Moenghus.

Kellhus's voice! Kellhus's features! When had the son become the father's mould?

The text is basically shouting at the reader (complete with exclamation marks) that Kellhus looks and sounds almost exactly like Moenghus (in a way that's not natural even for a son and father), except that he's younger. In fact,

He resembles Anasûrimbor Moënghus in almost every respect, save that he is too young...

Yet, even though the Emperor and his advisors met both Mallahet and Kellhus and heard them speak none of them made a connection between the two (that we know of). There are several ways that can be explained away and dismissed, as per usual (they didn't remember, Bakker didn't think of it, etc...), but it could also be a clue that the person who appeared to them is not actually Moenghus. I mean, there isn't any real proof that it was him. Yes, he spoke Sheyic and his arms were scarred, but you don't have to be a true Dunyain to do that.

[Ser Bryar Ashford]

Another Kellhus is the father of Mimara's child tidbit, from the Kuniuri chapter of WLW:

"I am Anasurimbor Mimara," she cries. "Princess-Imperial, daughter of the Holy-Empress, wife-daughter of the Aspect-Emperor himself!"

Its now becoming too obvious. How did I miss all these clues the first time around?

[Wise Fool]

Is Moe just time-traveling older Kellhus? I mean maybe he went back in time once and accidentally changed things so that he wouldn't be born, so his appearances in the series so far is just him trying to restore his own timeline without having his mother dump his father for him. Hilarity ensues.

[Sci-2]

On a side note, if Moënghus really wanted to convince the others that the things weren’t sorcerous artifacts, couldn’t have simply thrown a Chorae at it? Would the Chorae have killed it if it were a sorcerous artifact?

Not if it was made by sorcery, rather than being present in the Inward due to manipulation of the onta. And it's not clear the Cish understand the metaphysics of sorcery. To them magic that works in spite of chorae may not seem like a logical impossibility (and, in fact, it may not be.)

The Cish can likely see the Mark, given they can see potential/power which makes Kellhus shine. But then we simply don't know enough about them. Can't all Few see the Mark? IIRC Kellhus could see the stain on Akka before he trained as a mage, and so can Mimara?

[Callan S.]

Is Moe just time-traveling older Kellhus? I mean maybe he went back in time once and accidentally changed things so that he wouldn't be born, so his appearances in the series so far is just him trying to restore his own timeline without having his mother dump his father for him. Hilarity ensues.

Bakker to the future?

....

I'll get me coat...

[Hello World]

It also explains why the Emperor and the spires themselves all think it is sorcery related (because they're thinking it's markless daimos as in the Knife of Many Hands) of course

It’s not just that that explanation wasn’t given, it contradicts the explanation that we did actually get. Everyone thought it was Cishaurim sorcery precisely because it had no Mark. Even the Emperor--yes, he was conflicted at first--but once Achamian confirmed to him that it had no Mark he immediately thought Cishaurim. The only other explanation that was entertained by anyone was the Consult’ Tekne, and then only by the Mandate.

Also, it is beyond grasping to argue that the Cishaurim did not understand how sorcery worked to the point of not knowing how the Mark or Chorae work, yet they were the only ones who knew about the Scarlet Spires’ fairly complicated method of imprisoning a Ciphrang in someone who has two forms where the Mark only appears on the possessed form... and it’s clear that that’s not what the Skin-spies were. Frankly, I don’t think Bakker had this on his mind when he wrote TKoMH. There is no point in doing a retcon that doesn’t actually explain anything.

Its now becoming too obvious. How did I miss all these clues the first time around?

Yeah, it’s even more obvious than R+L=J. I too wonder how I missed it on my first read, but I wonder even more how it was missed by those who read TJE/WLW several times...

[Hello World]

As for the the cloth to the eye sockets and the pink stains, people have wondered about it, but no one has come up with a good explanation. My best guess is that Moenghus blinded himself in that moment, and not before.

But it’s important to note that Moe’s face was hidden before he leaned forward and used the cloth. In other words, he wanted Kellhus to see whatever he was doing.

[Melphis Amekia]

I really have to do a very thorough re-read of the series(and the two shorts that I can read). It will help me keep up here. You guys are awesome.

[Sci-2]

Looks like I need to read TKoMH sooner rather than later....though I fear this is only going to complicate the metaphysics more.

And we still don't have an answer for dragons not using chorae, which is the most important question anyone could ask Bakker at this point regarding the series.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

And we still don't have an answer for dragons not using chorae, which is the most important question anyone could ask Bakker at this point regarding the series.

Don't know if you listen to the TSAcast or not, but, they discussed that the other night..... Still not an answer though. Just your frustration.