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Bakker XXXV: Tyrant of Rat Nation, Worshipped as Rat of Rats


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I'm assuming a giant reveal re Seswatha being an epic level ass in reality, and possibly a character made up out of whole cloth with the purpose of serving as a "star" in the fake history.

Esmenet in ttt thinks this very thought, that ses was nothing more than amalgamation of different figures and legends.

I love hello world's idea that the heron spear is just an empty placeholder viramsata that hides the truth. Ses stole the inverse fire from the inverse gods.

So how did the inverse god die if not by the heron spear?

Clearly ses showed him the inverse fire.

Then he used the inverse fire to manufacture seswathas heart and used it as a goad on the mandate as shae used it as a goad on the mangaecca.

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Interesting find H.

I'll throw in another couple of possible explanations.

Perhaps both Ieva and Aulisi were corrupted by the consult.

Or, more likely;

Whilst Seswatha would feel sure of the fate of Aulisi - sure enough to believe telling NC she lived was a lie, Ieva might know that she lives because she was the one who engineered the abduction and now gets to torture Aulisi at her leisure.

(Sranc aren't subtle enough to orchestrate a kidnapping of an important personage in the heart of the Norasai empire imo)

There are quite a few other examples of treachery favouring the consult in the presented histories of the first apocalypse, such as the burning of the white ships.

As for Ieva's 'crimes' that might have caused her to actively join the consult, that might be predicated by the possibility that she is a witch, or at least one of the Few. Based on what we know of the IF, it drives muggles mad - but actually corrupts sorcerers, or convinces them of the 'truth' of damnation. Or perhaps it depends on the veiwers 'damnation levels'... I'm getting sidetracked.

@ Hello World,

I seem to remember either a thread on the 3seas forum and/or tidbits from the glossary stating that NG warned Ses about the No-god being built - which makes sense if it's design was instigated by the earlier defection of the non-man Aporetics and now they have the Mangaecca - who would have been interested in banned nonman magics even before they joined the consult.

I inferred that he then advised Seswatha to find the Heron Spear and told him where to find it.

I'll try and find the references if you're interested, I might well be misremembering :dunno:

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I wonder if 'good' people (like mimara) get a glimpse of their future 'good' experience from the IF?

I'm not sure why people take the IF as gospel - but presumably it's that horrific it atleast proves such a horrific experience is possible.

I'd really not thought of what was hounding and whipping the Inchoroi along before that point, I'll admit.

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I don't recall reading that it only corrupts magi, but drives normal people insane. Do you remember where this is?

It's probably just my reading but it seems likely based on the incidents in the glossary account of the cuno-inchoroi wars those referenced in the False Sun.

The human 'criminal' Sirwitta, father of the first recorded human/Cunoroi - Cimoira - got into the arc during the second watch. It's unclear if he lived among the Ishroi or was a sorcerer.

"The Isûphiryas mentions the Inchoroi only once during this time. Unwilling to assign desperately needed Ishroi to the Second Watch, Cû’jara-Cinmoi had charged Oirinas and Oirûnas, the sole survivors of the First Watch, with recruiting Men for the duty. Among these Halaroi was a “criminal” named Sirwitta. Apparently Sirwitta had seduced the wife of a high-ranking Ishroi and conceived by her a daughter named Cimoira. The Judges of the Ishroi were perplexed: such a thing had never happened before. The truth of Cimoira was suppressed, and despite her mannish blood she was accepted as Cûnuroi. Sirwitta himself was banished to the Second Watch"

"Somehow (the Isûphiryas does not go into detail) Sirwitta managed to enter the Incû-Holoinas. A month passed, and all thought him lost. Then he reappeared, deranged, screeching claims so alarming that Oirinas and Oirûnas brought him directly to Cû’jara-Cinmoi. What was said between Sirwitta and the High King of Siöl is not recorded. The chroniclers say only that Cû’jara-Cinmoi, after hearing Sirwitta speak, ordered him put to death. A later entry, however, described Sirwitta as “tongueless and imprisoned.” It appears the High King, for some unknown reason, had rescinded his warrant."

Until the False Sun was released this just seemed like a really odd addition to the glossary entry. Possibly an ancestor of the Anasurimbors? Whatever Sirwatta told Cujara Cinmoi, it didn't dissuade him from disbanding the watch and letting the Inchoroi play doctors with his wife. Basically this event has no significance to the course to the Cuno-inchoroi Wars but it gets half a page?

In the False Sun we find out about the human sorcerer's experience with the IF and how the sorcerers react when Shae recollects the Mangacea's reaction after seeing the IF... They go torture people to death to see how it compares to damnation and start plotting to kill their rivals.

The False Sun also provides an similar example among the non-man;

“Min-Uroikas had fallen,” the Hero-Mage replied. “The Ishroi laboured in vain to destroy the Ark, as did the Quya. They knew of the Golden Court, the Inver–”

“From Nin-janjin,” Shaeönanra found himself interrupting. Why? Why did they insist on repeating its name? A thing need not be named to be spoken of…

“Yes… From Nin-janjin,” Titirga repeated, something not quite identifiable sparking in his eyes. “And because they knew, Nil’giccas chose the Three to enter it. Two Ishroi, renowned for their valour–Misariccas and Runidil–and one Quya…” He paused as though to set his teeth against his hatred. “Cet’ingira.”

Shaeönanra found himself turning to the Inchoroi, cackling, crying, “He knows!” in a voice too maniacal to be his own. “He knows!”

“I know only what Nil’giccas told me. That Misariccas and Runidil returned shrieking–”

Yes. Shaeönanra had also shrieked… for a time. And wept.

“–and that Cet’ingira counselled his King to have them killed.”

So Mek was explicitly mentioned as the quya - sorcerer caste. He ensures his companions are killed because he can't trust them to back up his bullshit, note they are explicitly mentioned as Ishroi - hero/noble caste. Perhaps its salient to mention that sorcery is heritable for Nonmen here?

Anyway in the examples we have of people who have (or might have) seen the IF, Shae, Mek, the Mangacea, the Aporetic Quya and the Inchie Bros instantly formed a bro-pact of evil. All sorcerers. Everyone else goes 'crazy' and tries to warn the king.

edit. Bouncing off Callan's suggestion, perhaps Sirwitta and the two Ishroi are all 'good' or 'not damned' or whatever. They all seem cast as pretty noble characters, perhaps even pious? Sirwatta would have to have been pretty slick to seduce a Cunoroi princess and break into/out of the ark.

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Hmm but isn't their going crazy just them screaming "everyone is damned you're all going to hell,"or something to that effect.

“I know only what Nil’giccas told me. That Misariccas and Runidil returned shrieking–”

Yes. Shaeönanra had also shrieked… for a time. And wept.

This seems to imply Shae was the same for a while. On the other hand they don't seem to be as together as the sorcerers. Maybe they can't get a hold of themselves for some reason?

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That's quite plausible, Darzin.

Bakker definitely seems to be hinting there is some difference, but is obfuscating what it entails beyond the reveal that Mek wanted to silence his Ishroi companions.

The archmages disagree on why NG agreed to have the Ishroi killed. According to Titirga, NG said they were possessed. Shae claims they spoke the truth. Screaming about damnation could be interpreted both ways, I think.

Mek seems confident that Shae will be turned in the flashbacks.

In turn, Shae and Aurang seem to think there is a chance to recruit Titirga.

At any rate, Mek had changed/recovered enough to pretend to be fine and manipulate NG into killing his friends while they apparently couldn't manage a cogent argument.

Perhaps the IF burns away the parts of your soul that aren't damned? That might explain why the Mangaccea can't experience remorse afterwards.

The belief that the Mark=damnation is pretty common in Earwa, and it's the basis of Shae's arguement to Titirga. Perhaps sorcerers are so damned that enough of their souls remains to support their personality after the Inverse Fire.

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Sirwatta would have to have been pretty slick to seduce a Cunoroi princess and break into/out of the ark.

I always assumed that the Inchoroi let him in and then sent him back to the King to tell about what he had seen. It just seems unlikely that he could break in and get to the place with the IF before escaping.

My guess is that the Inchoroi did that as part of their plan to get Cujara-Cinmoi to agree to the immortality deal later on.

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If he did go into the ark, he probably used the same way Seswatha did. I don't believe we are given any details about how he did that either, funny that maybe Golgotterath has an exhaust port... but I think it's more likely just one more piece we are missing. He who controls the past controls the future and with his sole deliverance of the Isûphiryas e and his creation of the dreams Seswatha had direct control over a good portion of what we think we know. I'd be very surprised if some of that isn't edited in some way. it's just a matter of finding which part.

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I like the idea that Seswatha's heart and the IF are kind of the same thing - I mean the Mandate know they are damned anyway, you'd think they'd ally themselves with the Consult. Shit doesn't make any sense. And also the idea that you kill the No-God by showing him the IF. Some kind of shortcircuit of the blind brain, or a overload in the cycle of souls he's disrupting?

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Well, I was thinking it's the opposite though.

Seswatha says, damn your soul to save the world.

The Consult says, destroy the world to save your soul.

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