Callan S. Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 That's not the troubling part.So Moe let them blind him before he understood how the Psukhe worked? A Dunyain let the Cishaurim take away his own eyes without knowing the consequences? That's insane.Some paths have to be walked, to be known. Like getting up on a circumfix. But yeah, if Kellhus had it figured it from just gossiping with Akka, either Moe's lack of passion ALSO blinded him to the metaphysics of passion even when immersed in a culture of it (blindness being a theme) OR it's a plot hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Could also be just chaotic and random chance. The probability trance lets him see possible outcomes, it doesn't let him predict the future 100%. Then he tries to manipulate stuff so that his favored outcomes are more likely to happen. So for the Skin Eater / Akka / Mimara arc maybe he just figured that whatever he wanted to happen, his best shot was just to send them all off LotR / BM style and hope for the best. Maybe he wanted a Judging Eye in the North. Maybe he wanted Akka and NG to help him storm Golgoterrath, but couldn't figure a better way to get Akka up there than to send him to Ishual. And the destroy it so Akka figures, "what the hell, might as well go do the tourist thing and check out dagliash and Golgoterath while I'm in the neighborhood". It's entirely possible he never foresaw how it would turn out, but that he figured it was his best chance and doubled down on it. Definitely frustrating not having any more Kellhus povs. I think part of our issue is we tend to see - and possibly can only see - causes as Before -> After. Meanwhile Earwa has teleology (the world conspires) so After -> Before...it's in fact possibly that both past->future (Aristotle's efficient causality IIRC) and future->before (final causality) exist in Earwa. If being one of the Few who grasps the 1000-fold Thought allows Kellhus to consider both efficient and final causality then it's not necessarily as foolhardy as we might think for Kellhus to send Akka on this mad quest. After all if Kellhus can get Akka to the right place (say Ishual) then it's possibly Akka's path begins to go along one of the world's "joints" which vastly increases the probability of his and Mimara's survival and Mimara's deliverance to the Ordeal. Basically think of Fate less as a line and more like a teleological force trying to pull present into particular futures. (Hopefully this makes some sense?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Bryar Ashford Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 The colour map of Earwa in the corner looks nice. Regarding the maps...Obviously the rings are other landing craft besides the ark? The Cunuroi and Halaroi landing crafts? Other inchoroi arks that were destroyed upon landing? If an ark falls in Eanna and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Basically think of Fate less as a line and more like a teleological force trying to pull present into particular futures. (Hopefully this makes some sense?)No urn is so cracked as fate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 No urn is so cracked as fate. Yup. Being at space-time point A increases the likelihood of being at space-time point B. Basically future outcomes (which already exist as per the P2P hypthesis) have "mass" pulling the present toward them with certain outcomes corresponding to certain present states. So Kellhus, the Hundred, the World all conspire by trying to set up events that lead to other events not because of efficient/forward causality but because of teleological/final causality. The competition of the varied futures are the cracks/joints in space-time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 But yeah, if Kellhus had it figured it from just gossiping with Akka, either Moe's lack of passion ALSO blinded him to the metaphysics of passion even when immersed in a culture of it (blindness being a theme) OR it's a plot hole.Or he understood how it worked and took it anyway. There could be any number of reasons for that: he thought the Cishaurim were not damned (or there's something special about a Cishaurim who dies from Chorae), he wanted an invisible sorcery, he was a prophet (there are implications that Moe healed Cnaiur's scars, literally, in that scene).But I actually like what you said about his lack of passion possibly blinding him to the metaphysics. I've tried before to explain Moe's claim that he walked the Outside and found no evidence of gods or damnation (even though Meppa says the Cish can see it) by suggesting that he has some sort of metaphysical blindness, and not merely a mundane one. Maybe that's what Kellhus meant when he said that Moe "couldn't" understand how the Psukhe worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Regarding the maps...Obviously the rings are other landing craft besides the ark? The Cunuroi and Halaroi landing crafts? Other inchoroi arks that were destroyed upon landing? If an ark falls in Eanna and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound? I'd assumed prior orbital bombings of the planet. But your theory sounds cooler, so I'll muse on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I've tried before to explain Moe's claim that he walked the Outside and found no evidence of gods or damnation (even though Meppa says the Cish can see it) by suggesting that he has some sort of metaphysical blindness, and not merely a mundane one. Where does he say that? I just remember him saying he'd looked everywhere and nothing had contradicted determinism/before and after? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gasp of Many Reeds Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Could also be just chaotic and random chance. The probability trance lets him see possible outcomes, it doesn't let him predict the future 100%. Then he tries to manipulate stuff so that his favored outcomes are more likely to happen. So for the Skin Eater / Akka / Mimara arc maybe he just figured that whatever he wanted to happen, his best shot was just to send them all off LotR / BM style and hope for the best. Maybe he wanted a Judging Eye in the North. Maybe he wanted Akka and NG to help him storm Golgoterrath, but couldn't figure a better way to get Akka up there than to send him to Ishual. And the destroy it so Akka figures, "what the hell, might as well go do the tourist thing and check out dagliash and Golgoterath while I'm in the neighborhood". It's entirely possible he never foresaw how it would turn out, but that he figured it was his best chance and doubled down on it. Definitely frustrating not having any more Kellhus povs. I think there's certainly some appeal to the view that Kellhus conditioned the ground for Akka and Mimara with the aim of bringing them into position for some planned use in the Great Ordeal. The main question for me is what role the life or death of Nil'giccas played in this. Cleric's death certainly benefited Akka and Mimara in terms of providing the qirri that gave them the ability to continue north to Ishual. And perhaps Kellhus has figured that killing off the king of Ishterebinth might grant some advantage in his negotiations with the Nonmen (not sure what, but let's speculate). On the other hand, Nil'giccas seems a valuable pawn, even as an Erratic, and it's not clear to me why Kellhus wouldn't, if he were able, retain him to further manipulate him. Nonetheless, I think Kellhus would have foreseen that as an Erratic Nil'giccas would eventually turn on his friends, and I don't believe he would have just left this as an open possibility when planning his conditioning of the ground and would have tried to control or manipulate the inevitability of this event. It may be that Kellhus sees Akka as a superior pawn and was betting on Akka winning any encounter. But I think it could well be true that he did not foresee the fight happening, or at the very least thought he had established controls which would allow all three of them to reach the Great Ordeal, at which point he could intervene to separate them. But then there's the question of how Akka and Mimara endure the journey north and meet with the Ordeal in good time without Nil'giccas' qirri. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I don't think Cleric was simply a pawn that Kellhus or someone else happened upon. The thing is, of all living beings at the time of PoN/AE Cleric was probably the one person who knew more about the Consult and the first apocalypse than anyone else--except maybe for the Consult's leadership.He's the one who ordered the census of the Ark, he knew about the IF and spoke to those who have seen it, he was BFF with Seswatha (and was probably the one who told him about the No-God before he was created), and of course he knew any truths regarding the Womb-Plague and the Cuno-Inchoroi wars that we don't know (he was the one who gave the only copy of the Isuphiryas to the humans after all).Any number of crackpots could be tied to him, especially the "Foundation" theories. Sure, Seswatha could create the Mandate and the Dunyain and have them do their thing for two thousand years, but who is to make sure that the Kwisatz Haderach (Moenghus) would emerge from Ishual just a few decades before the No-God rises again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I don't think Cleric was simply a pawn that Kellhus or someone else happened upon. The thing is, of all living beings at the time of PoN/AE Cleric was probably the one person who knew more about the Consult and the first apocalypse than anyone else--except maybe for the Consult's leadership.He's the one who ordered the census of the Ark, he knew about the IF and spoke to those who have seen it, he was BFF with Seswatha (and was probably the one who told him about the No-God before he was created), and of course he knew any truths regarding the Womb-Plague and the Cuno-Inchoroi wars that we don't know (he was the one who gave the only copy of the Isuphiryas to the humans after all).Any number of crackpots could be tied to him, especially the "Foundation" theories. Sure, Seswatha could create the Mandate and the Dunyain and have them do their thing for two thousand years, but who is to make sure that the Kwisatz Haderach (Moenghus) would emerge from Ishual just a few decades before the No-God rises again? yeah, that's definitely one of the biggest, if not the biggest mystery. It's easy for readers to just accept that an Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world. Do the Dunyain have some kind of artifact or text that instructed them to send someone out to the world? something tied to the dunyain feminine? or is it someone/thing bigger drawing him out at that time? or is it the other way around, that moengus' arrival spurs the Consult to start the second rise of the NG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gasp of Many Reeds Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 or is it the other way around, that moengus' arrival spurs the Consult to start the second rise of the NG? Seems difficult to credit if we accept the Consult's apparent ignorance of the existence of the Dunyain prior to TTT. I think it more likely that the coinciding of the return of an Anasurimbor and the rebirth of the No-God is down to the effects of teleology/plot exigencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Yeah, Ishual was discovered by a band of Sranc and Moenghus was sent to investigate except that he was polluted so they exiled him. ... Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Bryar Ashford Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I'd assumed prior orbital bombings of the planet. But your theory sounds cooler, so I'll muse on it. I wonder if Seswatha has been traveling around the universe doing battle with the Inchoroi? And one of the rings is where his craft/people crash landed? I have a feeling Seswatha has conditioned a lot ground we know nothing about yet. I suspect he's behind the Dunyain as well as Moe's exile/arrival in the 3 seas. One other thing I noticed during a reread last night, WLW Overlook pg 182, when Mimara is thinking about her pregnancy: "But she had been bedded nonetheless. And despite years of carrying a whore-shell, despite the chaos of her menstrual cycle, pregnancy was not impossible. The strong seed forces the womb... Her mother was proof of that." My bold. Stong seed forcing the womb with Esmenet the proof? Obviously, Kellhus is the father, right? Or he at least bedded her. Seems clear as day to me now. Didn't catch it the first time through. She goes on after that to think there are three possibilities, none of them Kellhus, 1]"darling body slave, 2]Imhailas, who helps her escape, 3]Akka but then after listing them: "Three, she tells herself, when in fact there can be only one." Bakker's italics and my bold. I'm about 95% certain Kellhus is the father and since he's half nonman, that combined with the chorae she carries and the Judging Eye explains her strange super powers and importance to the prophecies. What do ya'll think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 It took me a while to realize that you're talking about the father of Mimara's baby and not her own father... But yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Kellhus seems a very likely candidate, now. But if I may, there is another possibility now that you've opened the can. Maybe it's not Kellhus but someone almost as... special? Inrilatas, on the other hand, she discussed for quite some time, partly because Esmenet had sought to involve her in the boy's upbringing. According to Mimara, none of her siblings possessed more of their father's gifts--or more of their mother's all too human weaknesses. Speaking long before any infant should. Never forgetting. And seeing deeper, far deeper, than any human could... or should. His subsequent madness, she said, was inevitable. He was perpetually at a loss, perpetually overwhelmed by the presence of others. Unlike his father, he could only see the brute truths, the facts and lies that compelled the course of lives, but these were quite enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Bryar Ashford Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Inrilatas is also an interesting candidate. Though I still like Kellhus because, first of all he's a dick and its totally something he would do, but Bakker spends a lot of time talking about his seed and how strong it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 There is a line Mimara uses when she says there's only ever one reason a girl leaves her step-father's house. I think she says it to Achamian, but it's brushed off as a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Wait, wasn’t it Kelmomas who drove Mimara out of the Andiamine Heights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Bryar Ashford Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 There is a line Mimara uses when she says there's only ever one reason a girl leaves her step-father's house. I think she says it to Achamian, but it's brushed off as a lie. Do you remember if it was tJE or WLW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Sunovabitch, this is great stuff, subtlely planted, if true.What do you think about mimaras father, anaturinbor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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