(TWOW Spoilers) From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XXII

[Harry the Hair]

Just a thought here; is it possible that Lyn worked for LF as early as Cat's POV where she describes him? LF could've simply told him to be extra nasty since GOT to make their future encounter more realistic and in character.

Though him courting Lysa was already a sign that he desires a lot more than wine, boys and gold (unless he was doing it on LF's orders). LF is clearly aware of that hence the quote about Ser Lyn loving his brother as much as he does LF. By arranging ser Lyonel's marriage to a young lady that would produce heirs, Petyr knew he would vex Ser Lyn. Long story short, LF lied to Sansa about what Lyn wants, possibly to ensure that she wouldn't be able to recruit him for her own schemes.

[Milady of York]

What is perhaps the strangest thing is how upset Ser Lyn seems about being displaced as Lysa's suitor, although he could hardly have had any interest in Lysa as a woman or a person.

Lovely idea, Lyanna! The image emerging from all these appearances is very intriguing.

He would have had an interest in her as her husband, I'd think. Given that he'd been for long living as his brother's heir and likely depending on it for acquiring gold and other benefits, since as heir he could use his position as guarantee when borrowing money, for example, and what we just learnt about how upset he was that Littlefinger left him landless and displaced him from the line of inheritance, it makes sense that he'd be ambitious enough to envision himself in Littlefinger's place as the Lady of the Vale's husband, possibly also as Lord Protector if he seduced Lysa into giving him the office once married. If correct, then Littlefinger has pissed off Lyn twice in a row, by kicking him out of the line of suitors to Lysa's hand and getting the job he'd have wanted, and again from his House's line of inheritance. That adds to how enraged Lyn is in TWOW, because one displacement could be tolerated and even blamed on Lysa's weakness for this man, but twice . . . is too much.

[Lyanna Stark]

The Ultimate Lyn Corbray Collection - More Plump Sausage for All

Here we get to the "meat" so to speak (I'm sorry, I am terrible :P just call me "Myranda" ) of why Ser Lyn Corbray may potentially play a part in Sansa/Alayne's near future.

Part 2 TWOW Alayne spoiler chapter

Alayne/Sansa spots two men fighting in the yard and when she notices three ravens clutching three red hearts, she knew how the fight would end. When Lyn Corbray beats his opponent we get a brief description of how it happened.

If the swords had not been blunted, there would be brains as well. That last head blow had been so hard Alayne had winced in sympathy when it fell.

Interesting to note perhaps that Ser Lyn beat his opponent by striking at his head. Armoured to be sure and with blunted swords or "there would have been brains", but it's potentially interesting to compare to how Sandor did not strike at his brother's head back in AGOT. Not particularly chivalrous, our Ser Lyn.

Myranda then comments:

“Do you think if I asked nicely Ser Lyn would kill my suitors for me?”

“He might, for a plump bag of gold.” Ser Lyn Corbray was forever desperately short of coin, all the Vale knew that.

What looks humurous at first glance takes on a bit of an ominous tone when looked at further. Myranda doesn't have any serious suitors at present and she said it flippantly enough, but Alayne might have one that Lyn could potentially kill if he tried to. Harry is described as not particularly skilled. This could mean potentially bad news for Harold Hardyng.

Myranda goes on to comment on what Cat had heard whispered.

“Alas, all I have is a plump pair of teats. Though with Ser Lyn, a plump sausage under my skirts would serve me better.”

Randa confirms here what we sort of already knew about which way Ser Lyn swings, although again, no mention of "boys" and "plump sausage" seems to indicate it's men he prefers, not boys, perhaps giving the lie to Littlefinger's words (and it wouldn't be the first time either). And you know, Randa's humour is incorrigible. It is rather nice that Sansa who previously was such a little proper lady finds this amusing though, and their giggles alert Ser Lyn to their presence.

Alayne’s giggle drew Corbray’s attention. He handed his shield to his loutish squire, removed his helm and quilted coif. “Ladies.” His long brown hair was plastered to his brow by sweat.

“Well struck, Ser Lyn,” Alayne called out. “Though I fear you’ve knocked poor Ser Owen insensible.”

Corbray glanced back to where his foe was being helped from the yard by his squire. “He had no sense to start with, or he should not have tried me.”

Alayne reflects that he speaks the truth, but really he is also very smug here. not unlike his "modest" smile in Tyrion's AGOT chapter where he likes to tell people about his mad fighting skillz. He also seems to have aquired a loutish squire as a replacement for Mychel Redfort who was his squire in AGOT (as referenced in Cat's climb to the Eyrie chapter).

But! Alayne-Sansa shows she is not a meek little lady anymore, but decides to poke and prod Ser Lyn a bit, and we get an interesting tidbit on just how volatile and unstable Ser Lyn's loyalties to LF may be.

There is truth in that, Alayne thought, but some demon of mischief was in her that morning, so she gave Ser Lyn a thrust of her own. Smiling sweetly, she said, “My lord father tells me your brother’s new wife is with child.”

Corbray gave her a dark look. “Lyonel sends his regrets. He remains at Heart’s Home with his peddler’s daughter, watching her belly swell as if he were the first man who ever got a wench pregnant.”

Oh, that’s an open wound, thought Alayne. Lyonel Corbray’s first wife had given him nothing but a frail, sickly babe who died in infancy, and during all those years Ser Lyn had remained his brother’s heir. When the poor woman finally died, however, Petyr Baelish had stepped in and brokered a new marriage for Lord Corbray. The second Lady Corbray was sixteen, the daughter of a wealthy Gulltown merchant, but she had come with an immense dowry, and men said she was a tall, strapping, healthy girl, with big breasts and good, wide hips. And fertile too, it seems.

Alayne's barb here is described as a "thrust" as if she was fencing with Ser Lyn and managed to score a hit. She may also have realised something that LF did not regarding how pissed off this has made Ser Lyn. Clearly, despite him not fancying women and being a younger son, he was used to being heir to his house, does not like his brother and did definitely not like being bumped down the list of heirs.

Alayne could not help herself. She smiled and said, “My father is always pleased to be of service to one of Lord Robert’s leal bannermen. I’m sure he would be most delighted to help broker a marriage for you as well, Ser Lyn.”

“How kind of him.” Corbray’s lips drew back in something that might have been meant as a smile, though it gave Alayne a chill. “But what need have I for heirs when I am landless and like to remain so, thanks to our Lord Protector? No. Tell your lord father I need none of his brood mares.”

Yes, he is landless and like to remain so thanks to our lovely Lord Petyr. Ser Lyn is not keen on any lowly broodmares, he had his sights set higher. (This makes me wonder a bit if, should Ser Shadrich tell Ser Lyn about who Alayne really is, perhaps he won't abduct her to "sell" her to Freys or Lannisters or Tyrells, perhaps he would try and hold her as a future bride as Sansa Stark is very highranking and comes with a potential Winterfell dowry. Quite a nice prize for Ser Lyn, no? Despite being a sausage fan.) Here he is definitely mostly pissed at Littlefinger though.

The venom in his voice was so thick that for a moment she almost forgot that Lyn Corbray was actually her father’s catspaw, bought and paid for. Or was he? Perhaps, instead of being Petyr’s man pretending to be Petyr’s foe, he was actually his foe pretending to be his man pretending to be his foe.

Just thinking about it was enough to make her head spin. Alayne turned abruptly from the yard… and bumped into a short, sharp-faced man with a brush of orange hair who had come up behind her.

And here Sansa starts to see that Ser Lyn might be bought and paid for once, but given what has happened with LF brokering the marriage for his brother and bumping him down the line, he is no longer an ally pretending to be a foe, he is actually genuinely not an ally anymore, or at least nobody they can trust.

When she realises Lyn is a loose cannon ready to blow...in steps Ser Shadrich, as on demand. So we have "Ser Lyn's allegiance is not certain" linked to "...and in steps Ser Shadrich, who just happens to be looking for Sansa".

I'm thinking whichever way this goes, it doesn't look like good news. The only really good part is that Sansa has herself figured out that Ser Lyn is no longer in LF's pocket and cannot be relied on to act as an ally.

Other random strange things: When she first spots Ser Lyn, she describes his shield with hearts and ravens, and the this comes in italics.

Three hearts and three ravens.

Just randomly ominous, or a reference to Bloodraven? I also thought of Maester Aemon's speech to Jon on Ravens and doves and getting your hands bloody.

Further, we also don't see Ser Lyn referenced as attending the feast where Sansa/Alayne dances with Harry the Heir. Does she not notice him? (Seem strange) Or is he making himself scarce?

The "do you think he would kill my suitor for me if I asked" comment really stands out as very much potential ouch, especially as Sansa wishes for Harry to fail and fall and be embarrassed. She doesn't wish him dead, but then as we've seen before, Lady Forlorn likes some red once she is drawn, no? "My lady has a thirst".

Ser Lyn also thinks his opponent is an idiot for fighting him, and we see that LF et al think Harry the Heir is not a very good fighter and that he is an idiot to try the tourney, but that Bronze Yohn Royce allowed it anyway because he is honourable. Is Harry also going to be an idiot and fight Lyn Corbray? Should Sansa give Corbray her favour, he would feel compelled to do so.

It's rather interesting to draw paralells to other fighting men Sansa has encountered during her travels and travails in the Seven Kingdoms. I'm thinking Ser Loras and Sandor Clegane primarily, perhaps, as she's seen them fight in a previous tourney. We know Sandor was dismissive of the Tourney of Gnats, but in general he seems to not really do duels and while he speaks gruffly, he certainly doesn't as a rule go around threatening old ladies to shut it or murderdeathkill. Sandor is a younger son who hates his older brother, but we don't see the vanity and the same ambition in him. While a brutally efficient killer, he doesn't seem to go out of his way to kill people unless needed. He also lacks Ser Lyn's pretty looks and "sword thin" physique.

Ser Loras is a hot-headed youth, and like Corbray good looking (and he happens to swing the same way) but I actually think Loras is less vain and prdeful. He is also a younger son but genuinely likes his older brothers and fights for them. When faced with Brienne in Kings Landing and how he probably killed his Kingsguard brothers for nothing, he is remorseful and not proud, prickly or vain.

[Harry the Hair]

I suppose LF could've made a mistake; he tought that because Ser Lyn is a fan of sausages there's no way he'd be willing to settle for a tacco even if that taco comes with a noble name, lands, riches and titles. He might even have thought he was doing ser Lyn a favor by allowing Lyonel continue the Corbray line which would exempt Lyn from having to father children to continue his family line.

But that would only make sense if Lyn's courtship of Lysa was a total farce and LF knew about it.

[Ragnorak]

The Ultimate Lyn Corbray Collection - More Plump Sausage for All

Here we get to the "meat" so to speak (I'm sorry, I am terrible :P just call me "Myranda" ) of why Ser Lyn Corbray may potentially play a part in Sansa/Alayne's near future.

Part 2 TWOW Alayne spoiler chapter

Alayne/Sansa spots two men fighting in the yard and when she notices three ravens clutching three red hearts, she knew how the fight would end. When Lyn Corbray beats his opponent we get a brief description of how it happened.

<snip>

Very nice work on both parts, Lyanna.

Just a quick observation for starters. Alayne compliments his swordplay and it seems well received despite the response heavily salted with ego. But Alayne doesn't tweak him, Littlefinger tweaks him via Alayne as a proxy. Sansa may be tossing the man jars of nitroglycerin to juggle but if they explode LF is the one in the blast radius. My father... would like to remind you of your lost inheritance. My father is perfectly willing to screw you over a second time. For all the irritation she awakens in the man, none of that wrath or even his in the moment anger anger is directed at her. It doesn't even seem to be associated with her. She has a more or less clean slate with this man. If Sansa wanted to start playing this man the simple line: "You are not the only one displeased with my father's marriage arrangements." seems all that it would take.

[Harry the Hair]

Very nice work on both parts, Lyanna.

Just a quick observation for starters. Alayne compliments his swordplay and it seems well received despite the response heavily salted with ego. But Alayne doesn't tweak him, Littlefinger tweaks him via Alayne as a proxy. Sansa may be tossing the man jars of nitroglycerin to juggle but if they explode LF is the one in the blast radius. My father... would like to remind you of your lost inheritance. My father is perfectly willing to screw you over a second time. For all the irritation she awakens in the man, none of that wrath or even his in the moment anger anger is directed at her. It doesn't even seem to be associated with her. She has a more or less clean slate with this man. If Sansa wanted to start playing this man the simple line: "You are not the only one displeased with my father's marriage arrangements." seems all that it would take.

One thing is certain here; Myranda witnessed this exchange and caught on to Alayne's father screwing up Lyn's inheritence plans. That info was practically being shoved down her throat with Lyn's acidic smiles and bitter retorts.

[brashcandy]

Excellent work, Lyanna. I'm wondering if Alayne's giggle wasn't intended to catch Lyn's attention deliberately, but regardless, she doesn't waste any time in hitting him where it hurts by mentioning his brother's pregnant wife. There's a "demon of mischief" in Sansa, and when she presses further she gets to the "heart" of the matter: Lyn is pissed over no longer being his brother's heir. This is a bit of landmine territory Sansa is walking over, because while she can tease and prod Lyn as LF's bastard daughter, there's her own real identity as Sansa Stark and a hefty claim that still leaves her vulnerable, as you point out.

Very nice work on both parts, Lyanna.

Just a quick observation for starters. Alayne compliments his swordplay and it seems well received despite the response heavily salted with ego. But Alayne doesn't tweak him, Littlefinger tweaks him via Alayne as a proxy. Sansa may be tossing the man jars of nitroglycerin to juggle but if they explode LF is the one in the blast radius. My father... would like to remind you of your lost inheritance. My father is perfectly willing to screw you over a second time. For all the irritation she awakens in the man, none of that wrath or even his in the moment anger anger is directed at her. It doesn't even seem to be associated with her. She has a more or less clean slate with this man. If Sansa wanted to start playing this man the simple line: "You are not the only one displeased with my father's marriage arrangements." seems all that it would take.

Good point, Rag. The question for me is what happens that convinces Sansa to go after Lyn with definite intent on working against Littlefinger. There's the possibility that she discovered his discontent too late and it feels like post-tourney all bets are off based on what happens there.

[LongRider]

The Ultimate Ser Lyn Corbray collection

~~~~snip~~~~

The next time we see Ser Lyn, Lysa is eating a blackberry off his dagger. Catelyn comments on his unsuitability as a suitor to Lysa.

So Cat knows which way Lyn swings, but unlike Littlefinger she does not reference "boys", just that he is uninterested in the charms of women.

~~~~snap~~~~

If Cat knows that Lyn prefers men, then no doubt Lysa does as well. Lysa sounded like she was playing with her suitors and just waiting for LF. She reminds me a bit of Sansa, she didn't want to be married for her claim, but for herself. Unfortunately, LF married her for the Vale and the Vale only, as she learned too late.

~~~~snip~~~

What is perhaps the strangest thing is how upset Ser Lyn seems about being displaced as Lysa's suitor, although he could hardly have had any interest in Lysa as a woman or a person.

He had interest in her claim to the Vale, same as LF. I wonder if he realized that LF's interest was in the Vale, same as his, and not 'for love' like Lysa thought and could of told many it 'was so' once the betrothal was arranged. Poor Lysa, a bit of a tragedy there.

[Milady of York]

Ser Lyn also thinks his opponent is an idiot for fighting him, and we see that LF et al think Harry the Heir is not a very good fighter and that he is an idiot to try the tourney, but that Bronze Yohn Royce allowed it anyway because he is honourable. Is Harry also going to be an idiot and fight Lyn Corbray? Should Sansa give Corbray her favour, he would feel compelled to do so.

One thing to take note of here is that, whilst Corbray exhibits the arrogance of a good swordsman that other good fighters exhibit too, he doesn't seem to value it as highly in that he's not above fighting an inferior opponent, which wouldn't bode well for Harry should your scenario play out that way. The rumours on him killing Prince Lewyn, of the famed Kingsguard of Aerys, whilst wounded and therefore at a disadvantage, would confirm that very thing, that he doesn't really have scruples about winning with unfair advantage on his side. Besides, he has a Valyrian sword, which by itself is a great advantage already. And he's going to participate in a tourney where the level of the contestants doesn't look quite convincing nor on par with his own, unless there's some excellent fighter or fighters there besides him that we've not heard of yet.

[Lyanna Stark]

Just a quick observation for starters. Alayne compliments his swordplay and it seems well received despite the response heavily salted with ego. But Alayne doesn't tweak him, Littlefinger tweaks him via Alayne as a proxy. Sansa may be tossing the man jars of nitroglycerin to juggle but if they explode LF is the one in the blast radius. My father... would like to remind you of your lost inheritance. My father is perfectly willing to screw you over a second time. For all the irritation she awakens in the man, none of that wrath or even his in the moment anger anger is directed at her. It doesn't even seem to be associated with her. She has a more or less clean slate with this man. If Sansa wanted to start playing this man the simple line: "You are not the only one displeased with my father's marriage arrangements." seems all that it would take.

Yes, it is interesting that she does poke him both times with "My father..." almost as if she knowingly is waving Littlefinger as a red flag in front of Ser Lyn. I agree that he is someone who could easily be swayed into working against Littlefinger since he already has motivation in spades. In this regards, either Sansa or someone else could very easily push him over the edge.

I've been having thoughts on some Mad Crackpottery with regards to this and your thoughts on which way Sansa will take out of the Vale once Littlefinger is offed. If I can gather my wits and actually write something coherent, I might post it later for your (and others') perusal and dissection.

One thing is certain here; Myranda witnessed this exchange and caught on to Alayne's father screwing up Lyn's inheritence plans. That info was practically being shoved down her throat with Lyn's acidic smiles and bitter retorts.

Yes, this is true, but I am not sure what Myranda will do with that information? Although she most likely had that figured out already. Myranda seems more concerned with her own lack of suitable suitors, and Ser Lyn is definitely not a suitable suitor for her either. Although, Myranda seems to think he is the type of suitor she'd like, as she comments when looking at him beating Ser Owen into the ground:

Myranda stopped to gaze across the yard at the knights at their practice. “Now there’s the very sort of husband I need.”

This comes before her commenting that she only has a plump set of teats, not a plump sausage, so clearly she is eyeing up Ser Lyn but knows he is unsuitable due to his not preferring her gender. She also wonders if he would kill her suitors for her. Hence Myranda's comments are basically: "Damn he is hot, shame he is gay or I would be all over that like a bad rash." Poor Myranda. :lol: She just really wants a hot guy after having been married to some old dude. Whether that turns out to be Harry the Heir or a Lyn Corbray look alike doesn't seem to matter, Myranda just has an appreciation for a handsome guy and seems keen on getting married again, preferably not to some loser like Uther Shett (his name makes me :lol: ) or Ossifer Lipps though. This time she wants to get someone better! (and hotter) that she can bang repeatedly and with much enjoyment without him dying from the effort. This contrasts with Alayne/Sansa who reflects that both Harry and Ser Lyn are handsome men, but she's not swayed by any of them, even likening Harry to Joffrey (ouch). Myranda also doesn't seem particularly concerned with her potential partner's morals. She's eyeing up both Harry of the Many Bastards and Ser Lyn the Volatile and Uncouth, focusing more on their level of attractiveness than any kind of interesting or attractive personality traits or inherent worth. There are shades of old King Bob here and to borrow a line from Sandor Clegane wrt to Robert: "If he could not fuck it, fight it, or drink it, it bored him...and so would you". Perhaps a King Bob man would be enough for Myranda, but Alayne/Sansa seems to have somewhat different priorities, even if she is clearly repulsed by the thought of having to bed Tyrion or Sweetrobin.

Regarding Ser Lyn's age, his brother Lyonel is said to be in his fourties, so that places Lyn in his later thirties or around forty. He was knighted after fighting against Jon Arryn's forces during Robert's Rebellion which was set 17-18 years before the events in the Vale. If we're guessing that Ser Lyn was around 18 at the time of his knighting, that means his age is late 30s. He seems to have kept in shape though, as he's described as sword-slim, lean and handsome, with a hard mouth, restless eyes and shoulder length brown hair.

Excellent work, Lyanna. I'm wondering if Alayne's giggle wasn't intended to catch Lyn's attention deliberately, but regardless, she doesn't waste any time in hitting him where it hurts by mentioning his brother's pregnant wife. There's a "demon of mischief" in Sansa, and when she presses further she gets to the "heart" of the matter: Lyn is pissed over no longer being his brother's heir. This is a bit of landmine territory Sansa is walking over, because while she can tease and prod Lyn as LF's bastard daughter, there's her own real identity as Sansa Stark and a hefty claim that still leaves her vulnerable, as you point out.

Indeed. At least Sansa's rank in itself would be something to consider, as well as who she might be worth money too. Further, Sansa strikes me as almost Tyrion-like in this conversation with very pointed questions and commentaries, although she gets away with it on account of not being a Lannister Imp and not as cheeky as he is. She learns that Lyn Corbray liked being the heir and that a title and rank (with attached land) are important to him, while the domestic bliss of married life, on the other hand, carries no temptation for him. Hence Littlefinger is wrong when he claims all Ser Lyn cares about is killing, gold and boys, since it's more like killing, a posh rank and a title, gold and men. LF missed a vital component in what motivates Lyn Corbray, but Sansa doesn't.

If Cat knows that Lyn prefers men, then no doubt Lysa does as well. Lysa sounded like she was playing with her suitors and just waiting for LF. She reminds me a bit of Sansa, she didn't want to be married for her claim, but for herself. Unfortunately, LF married her for the Vale and the Vale only, as she learned too late.

Potentially, although Lysa seems pretty deluded about a lot of things. I do agree that Lysa was playing with her suitors waiting for Littlefinger though. (The blackberry scene where she is eating it off Ser Lyn's dagger was a lot of WTF on a reread though. I'm dithering with regards to the symbolism, but it strikes me as not very suitable for a lady of Lysa's position to do that sort of thing, although it may just reflect how Ser Lyn is unsuitable for her in general.) And as you say, she wanted to be married for love and ended up being married only for her claim. Poor Lysa. :(

One thing to take note of here is that, whilst Corbray exhibits the arrogance of a good swordsman that other good fighters exhibit too, he doesn't seem to value it as highly in that he's not above fighting an inferior opponent, which wouldn't bode well for Harry should your scenario play out that way. The rumours on him killing Prince Lewyn, of the famed Kingsguard of Aerys, whilst wounded and therefore at a disadvantage, would confirm that very thing, that he doesn't really have scruples about winning with unfair advantage on his side. Besides, he has a Valyrian sword, which by itself is a great advantage already. And he's going to participate in a tourney where the level of the contestants doesn't look quite convincing nor on par with his own, unless there's some excellent fighter or fighters there besides him that we've not heard of yet.

Yes, this struck me as a key feature as well. In fact, it strikes me as almost the opposite with him. If he can gain something from it, then he is fine with fighting anyone even if they are inferior. We also know Ser Barristan was pardoned during Robert's Rebellion, but clearly Corbray had no compunction about cutting down prince Lewyn Martell even when he was severely wounded, instead of making him yield. It made Ser Lyn semi-famous to have killed prince Lewyn though, even if it was done with unfair advantage. His earlier comment to Anya Waynwood about how she should watch what she says to him as he doesn't take chastising well "as any number of dead men can tell you" also seems pretty ominous, not to mention as a bit of posturing.

The other fighters mentioned were Ser Mychel Redfort of Mya fame, and he is said to be a favourite for winning himself some wings. It's worth mentioning he is Ser Lyn's former squire.

[Lummel]

I like the tyrion point, Lyanna. Sansa here fights with words and wounds Lyn deeply, not I think as a proxy for Littlefinger, but rather against him, mixing metaphors - using him as a match to Lyn's short fuse.

When it comes to the point Lord Baelish has no reputation as a swordsman and he has nobody who would be able to fight off the likes of Corbray in a straight fight, if you'll excuse the double entendre.

There's an edge to her teasing here that looks new to me both with Lyn and 'Arry.

Be careful Lyanna, I've heard that ladies who like pump sausage oft end up with big bellies ;)

[brashcandy]

I've been rereading Sansa's conversation with Littlefinger after she flees Harry, and wondering if Martin is employing some underworld imagery here, in keeping with the Hades/Persephone motif that we were introduced to when Sansa was at the Fingers. Littlefinger's location is the first clue, he's down in the vaults inspecting the granaries, and there Sansa journeys on Brune's direction:

The vaults were large and dark and filthy. Alayne lit a taper and clutched her skirt as she made the descent.

She finds LF in conversation with two lords where he's advocating for the hoarding of foodstuff, insisting that all food shipments out of the Vale should be halted or seized. According to the myth, when Persephone is taken by Hades, her mother Demeter - goddess of the grain and harvest - causes the earth to stop producing, and winter ensues bringing a terrible famine until her daughter is returned to her and spring comes again. In this context, LF's utterance of the Stark words "winter is coming" make a lot of sense and highlight the role he has played in bringing blight upon the land. When he dismisses the lords and turns his attention to Sansa, it's noteworthy that he draws her further into the vaults:

"Come," Petyr said, "walk with me." He took her by the arm and led her deeper into the vaults, past an empty dungeon. "And how was your meeting with Harry the Heir?"

Sansa expresses her dismay over Harry's cruel words in the yard, and LF works to convince her that all will be fine, she need only work her charms on Harry at the feast, giving us a direct allusion to Sansa's role as Persephone:

"A beautiful bastard, and the Lord Protector's daughter." Petyr drew her close and kissed her on both cheeks. "The night belongs to you, sweetling, remember that, always."

So what are we to make of this imagery? We know that Sansa did not eat the pomegranate offered by LF, so being tied to him forever is unlikely. This chapter places considerable emphasis on Sansa's sexual maturity and identity, further associating her as a Persephone figure linked to themes of sexuality, death and rebirth. LF is seeking to harness her sexuality for his own means, and a key aspect of her resistance has to be in reclaiming it for herself and her own legitimate desires. As much as LF seeks to prepare for winter, it's the Starks that have the strong associations with this season, whereas he is only perpetuating a fraud, made all the more obscene by his mercenary aims in hoarding the food. Are we going to see a Sansa/Lady Stoneheart reunion? Ragnorak has spoken of Cat's tears reaching the Vale in an Alyssa Arryn parallel, and that's quite an evocative image in light of these mythological allusions.

[Milady of York]

Yes, this struck me as a key feature as well. In fact, it strikes me as almost the opposite with him. If he can gain something from it, then he is fine with fighting anyone even if they are inferior. We also know Ser Barristan was pardoned during Robert's Rebellion, but clearly Corbray had no compunction about cutting down prince Lewyn Martell even when he was severely wounded, instead of making him yield. It made Ser Lyn semi-famous to have killed prince Lewyn though, even if it was done with unfair advantage. His earlier comment to Anya Waynwood about how she should watch what she says to him as he doesn't take chastising well "as any number of dead men can tell you" also seems pretty ominous, not to mention as a bit of posturing.

Continuing with your theorising, there's a detail from the Ashford Tourney in "The Hedge Knight" that came back to memory when you mentioned Corbray as the potential one to trounce Harry and not be plagued by honour and scruples if he has to resort to unchivalrous methods:

Ser Humfrey broke slowly, building speed, but his foe raked the red charger hard with both spurs, coming hard. Egg's legs tightened again. "Kill him!" he shouted suddenly. "Kill him, he's right there, kill him, kill him, kill him!" Dunk was not certain which of the knights he was shouting to.

Prince Aerion's lance, gold-tipped and painted in stripes of red, orange, and yellow, swung down across the barrier. Low, too low, thought Dunk the moment he saw it. He'll miss the rider and strike Ser Humfrey's horse, he needs to bring it up. Then, with dawning horror, he began to suspect that Aerion intended no such thing. He cannot mean to . . .

At the last possible instant, Ser Humfrey's stallion reared away from the oncoming point, eyes rolling in terror, but too late, Aerion's lance took the animal just above the armor that protected his breastbone, and exploded out of the back of his neck in a gout of bright blood. Screaming, the horse crashed sideways, knocking the wooden barrier to pieces as he fell. Ser Humfrey tried to leap free, but a foot caught in a stirrup and they heard his shriek as his leg was crushed between the splintered fence and falling horse.

The first Hardyng knight we meet, and at a tourney of all places, was a great knight and very skilled, but got unhorsed by Aerion through dirty and unlawful trickery, and on falling from his wounded horse, he broke his leg. That ties in with what Alayne wishes the current Hardyng knight to suffer after that insult in the yard:

And may your horse stumble, Harry the Heir, so you fall on your stupid head in your first tilt.

Although here Alayne isn't wishing him ill as much as a just good sobering humiliation, she's being a bit reckless here, because falling from a horse is a very chancy occurrence: sometimes, you can land well and get nothing but a few bruises and a dented breastplate or helm depending on the angle you fall on and the strength of the opponent that unhorsed you (see Sandor's unhorsing of Renly and Jaime at the Hand's Tourney), but other times and also depending on the angle you fall in and chance, you could land on a very bad position and break a few ribs, a leg, an arm . . . Or if you have the bad luck of Christopher Reeve, land with your head in such a position that the impact could break your neck upon contact with the ground. Sansa at the Tourney of Gnats also wished for Morros Slynt: "I hope he falls and shames himself . . . I hope Ser Balon kills him." And right away, Balon Swann, the best knight at court discounting the Hound, unhorsed him so violently that Sansa was "appalled, wondering if the gods had heard her vengeful prayer." Could we see a repeat of this? That Alayne only wants Harry humiliated, but the match goes badly for him and he ends up like Ser Humfrey (who eventually died of his wounds); gravely wounded at the very least if not dead at the hands of his opponent.

[Harry the Hair]

The thing that stood out for me then was the "empty dungeon," this is a classic Chekhov's gun. At some point, that dungeon won't be empty.

Very nice parallel between Sansa and Persephone. It would be interesting to see how the story will play out. will Sansa remain LF's pawn/captive until Spring and will Cat be somehow responsible (directly or not) for her escape?

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

So much food for thought - great essays by Lyanna and Brash! I really missed the level of discourse of P2P when it was on hiatus!

I don't have much time now to do more than a drive-by post, but, I wanted to address the possible Lady Stoneheart connection. Recall that, when Gendry brings Brienne before her in AFFC, LS has Robb's crown with her. I think at some point she will give the crown to Sansa - possibly put it on her head. Now what would be going through Sansa's mind at that point, being crowned with her dead brother's crown by her zombie mother, I won't even guess. :eek:

As I've pointed out elsewhere, Petyr is now Lord Paramount of the Trident. With things going from bad to worse to even worser, at some point I think that he might be commanded to go sort out the region where he is now nominal overlord. It would make sense for him to bring "Alayne" along. If Sansa is not recognized - or at least openly recognized - in the Vale, I bet she would be in the Riverlands, where there are plenty of people who knew the young Catelyn Tully. There is one lord - Karyl Vance of Wayfarer's Rest, who is hinted at being in cahoots with the BWB (Lady Smallwood makes reference to Tom seeing "the Vance's maester" and Smallwood is sworn to Wayfarer's Rest) - who may even have seen Sansa herself; Vance was at that meeting where Ned was presiding as Hand, with Sansa in the gallery. Vance was the one who brought the group of smallfolk before Ned to tell them that the Mountain was running amok in their lands. It's possible Vance glimpsed Sansa - she is someone that would be worth noticing as the Hand's daughter and the future queen.

Besides Vance, there is Tytos Blackwood and Jason Mallister - both of whom are pretty sharp guys, and both of whom know what the young Cat Tully looks like. I've noted before, you can't just dye your hair and completely disguise yourself. Sansa has Cat's eyes, face structure, and figure. If Littlefinger goes to the Riverlands, he's going to have to meet with "his" lords - who will wonder just what this little upstart pipsqueak is doing with a girl who looks so much like Catelyn Tully...

And aside from the lords, there is the BWB. With Ser Gendry, who figured out that Arya was both a girl and a lady without much prompting - could he possibly umask another Stark sister? And let's not forget Lady Stoneheart! Even if the BWB grab "Alayne" figuring they'd just hold her for ransom, they'll bring her before Lady Stoneheart, and the truth will out. Maybe this is wishful thinking because I really want LS to meet LF and unleash a can of zombie whoop ass on him.

[Ragnorak]

I've been rereading Sansa's conversation with Littlefinger after she flees Harry, and wondering if Martin is employing some underworld imagery here, in keeping with the Hades/Persephone motif that we were introduced to when Sansa was at the Fingers. Littlefinger's location is the first clue, he's down in the vaults inspecting the granaries, and there Sansa journeys on Brune's direction:

The vaults were large and dark and filthy. Alayne lit a taper and clutched her skirt as she made the descent.

She finds LF in conversation with two lords where he's advocating for the hoarding of foodstuff, insisting that all food shipments out of the Vale should be halted or seized. According to the myth, when Persephone is taken by Hades, her mother Demeter - goddess of the grain and harvest - causes the earth to stop producing, and winter ensues bringing a terrible famine until her daughter is returned to her and spring comes again. In this context, LF's utterance of the Stark words "winter is coming" make a lot of sense and highlight the role he has played in bringing blight upon the land. When he dismisses the lords and turns his attention to Sansa, it's noteworthy that he draws her further into the vaults:

"Come," Petyr said, "walk with me." He took her by the arm and led her deeper into the vaults, past an empty dungeon. "And how was your meeting with Harry the Heir?"

Sansa expresses her dismay over Harry's cruel words in the yard, and LF works to convince her that all will be fine, she need only work her charms on Harry at the feast, giving us a direct allusion to Sansa's role as Persephone:

"A beautiful bastard, and the Lord Protector's daughter." Petyr drew her close and kissed her on both cheeks. "The night belongs to you, sweetling, remember that, always."

So what are we to make of this imagery? We know that Sansa did not eat the pomegranate offered by LF, so being tied to him forever is unlikely. This chapter places considerable emphasis on Sansa's sexual maturity and identity, further associating her as a Persephone figure linked to themes of sexuality, death and rebirth. LF is seeking to harness her sexuality for his own means, and a key aspect of her resistance has to be in reclaiming it for herself and her own legitimate desires. As much as LF seeks to prepare for winter, it's the Starks that have the strong associations with this season, whereas he is only perpetuating a fraud, made all the more obscene by his mercenary aims in hoarding the food. Are we going to see a Sansa/Lady Stoneheart reunion? Ragnorak has spoken of Cat's tears reaching the Vale in an Alyssa Arryn parallel, and that's quite an evocative image in light of these mythological allusions.

Persephone is a curious myth for Sansa for a variety of reasons. Her abduction is supposed to explain the seasons which are still unexplained in ASOIAF. Winter is Demeter's despair at Persephone's imprisonment, but for Sansa Winter is a native season and associated with her power and her domain. She also refused to eat the pomegranate so, at least mythologically speaking, she isn't imprisoned. She is free to enter or leave the underworld domain of her captor. Cat, or Lady Stoneheart, as a Demeter figure in this inverted Persephone myth is rather intriguing. I don't suspect there's time for it, but the first day of Winter would seem to me to be the day for a Sansa as Persephone reunion with her mother.

In this case it seems that having failed to get her to eat the pomegranate, LF is using Harry the Heir as a surrogate for a force to imprison her in the underworld. That is the topic as he tries to pull her deeper into the underground vault.

Continuing with your theorising, there's a detail from the Ashford Tourney in "The Hedge Knight" that came back to memory when you mentioned Corbray as the potential one to trounce Harry and not be plagued by honour and scruples if he has to resort to unchivalrous methods:

Ser Humfrey broke slowly, building speed, but his foe raked the red charger hard with both spurs, coming hard. Egg's legs tightened again. "Kill him!" he shouted suddenly. "Kill him, he's right there, kill him, kill him, kill him!" Dunk was not certain which of the knights he was shouting to.

Prince Aerion's lance, gold-tipped and painted in stripes of red, orange, and yellow, swung down across the barrier. Low, too low, thought Dunk the moment he saw it. He'll miss the rider and strike Ser Humfrey's horse, he needs to bring it up. Then, with dawning horror, he began to suspect that Aerion intended no such thing. He cannot mean to . . .

At the last possible instant, Ser Humfrey's stallion reared away from the oncoming point, eyes rolling in terror, but too late, Aerion's lance took the animal just above the armor that protected his breastbone, and exploded out of the back of his neck in a gout of bright blood. Screaming, the horse crashed sideways, knocking the wooden barrier to pieces as he fell. Ser Humfrey tried to leap free, but a foot caught in a stirrup and they heard his shriek as his leg was crushed between the splintered fence and falling horse.

<snip>

If I might connect your post to Brash's, isn't there some aspect of Persephone that has to do with fulfilling curses as Goddess of the Underworld?

Closer to your original topic I think we have multiple Tournaments that we may see come up in the Winged Knight Tourney. There's Ashford from the Hedge Knight, the Whitewalls Tourney from the Mystery Knight, the Harrenhal Tourney in the False Spring, the Hand's Tourney and even the Tourney of Gnats.

Ashford led to a trial by combat for an offense against a royal person. Sansa is wanted for such an offense and LF could also find himself wanted because he was actually guilty of that crime. There's also the pseudo royal figure of Jon Arryn who LF bears responsibility for killing. Whitewalls involved a plot against the crown which is certainly on LF's agenda. There are a lot of elements from these Tourney's that might fit well depending on how the plot unfolds. Lyn Corbray as a Steffon Fossaway character switching sides for the promise of a lordship seems quite possible.

The False Spring Harrenhal Tourney intrigues me most and I'd like to throw out some speculative fun. If the Winged Knight really does symbolize Bran, this would in many ways be Bran's Tourney. While we've never seen him at one, we do get his reaction to the story of the Laughing Knight.

“Oh.” Bran thought about the tale awhile. “That was a good story. But it should have been the three bad knights who hurt him, not their squires. Then the little crannogman could have killed them all. The part about the ransoms was stupid. And the mystery knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty.”

Will we see Bran's desired version of the Tourney play out? Who would the mystery knight be? Which three knights will die? Would the wolf maid being crowned queen of love and beauty mean the unmasking of Alayne at the end of the Tourney? More speculative fun than a theory, but seeing the outcome Bran wished for does seem like the type of thing Martin might do.

[LongRider]

~~~~snip~~

And aside from the lords, there is the BWB. With Ser Gendry, who figured out that Arya was both a girl and a lady without much prompting - could he possibly umask another Stark sister? And let's not forget Lady Stoneheart! Even if the BWB grab "Alayne" figuring they'd just hold her for ransom, they'll bring her before Lady Stoneheart, and the truth will out. Maybe this is wishful thinking because I really want LS to meet LF and unleash a can of zombie whoop ass on him.

If Jaime and Brienne were with the BWB or LS as the time, Jaime could ID Sansa as well.

[brashcandy]

The thing that stood out for me then was the "empty dungeon," this is a classic Chekhov's gun. At some point, that dungeon won't be empty.

Very nice parallel between Sansa and Persephone. It would be interesting to see how the story will play out. will Sansa remain LF's pawn/captive until Spring and will Cat be somehow responsible (directly or not) for her escape?

Yeah, the dungeon stood out to me too. It may have just been there to heighten the imprisonment imagery of the myth, or someone could end up there as you surmise. The scene also gave me some shades of the legend of Bael the Bard, but I'd need to think on it further.

Although here Alayne isn't wishing him ill as much as a just good sobering humiliation, she's being a bit reckless here, because falling from a horse is a very chancy occurrence: sometimes, you can land well and get nothing but a few bruises and a dented breastplate or helm depending on the angle you fall on and the strength of the opponent that unhorsed you (see Sandor's unhorsing of Renly and Jaime at the Hand's Tourney), but other times and also depending on the angle you fall in and chance, you could land on a very bad position and break a few ribs, a leg, an arm . . . Or if you have the bad luck of Christopher Reeve, land with your head in such a position that the impact could break your neck upon contact with the ground. Sansa at the Tourney of Gnats also wished for Morros Slynt: "I hope he falls and shames himself . . . I hope Ser Balon kills him." And right away, Balon Swann, the best knight at court discounting the Hound, unhorsed him so violently that Sansa was "appalled, wondering if the gods had heard her vengeful prayer." Could we see a repeat of this? That Alayne only wants Harry humiliated, but the match goes badly for him and he ends up like Ser Humfrey (who eventually died of his wounds); gravely wounded at the very least if not dead at the hands of his opponent.

Added to that is her wish for Janos Slynt to lose his head, and we all know what happens in Dance. Sansa's wishes and prayers do have a strange way of being fulfilled as we've been discussing in the Sandor reread.

Persephone is a curious myth for Sansa for a variety of reasons. Her abduction is supposed to explain the seasons which are still unexplained in ASOIAF. Winter is Demeter's despair at Persephone's imprisonment, but for Sansa Winter is a native season and associated with her power and her domain. She also refused to eat the pomegranate so, at least mythologically speaking, she isn't imprisoned. She is free to enter or leave the underworld domain of her captor. Cat, or Lady Stoneheart, as a Demeter figure in this inverted Persephone myth is rather intriguing. I don't suspect there's time for it, but the first day of Winter would seem to me to be the day for a Sansa as Persephone reunion with her mother.

In this case it seems that having failed to get her to eat the pomegranate, LF is using Harry the Heir as a surrogate for a force to imprison her in the underworld. That is the topic as he tries to pull her deeper into the underground vault.

The bolded is spot on, Rag. As you say, the Persephone myth is a curious one when applied to Sansa's storyline, which makes the irony all the greater in that LF is trying to secure her at a time when she's set to be resurgent. Martin seems to tease with the idea of Sansa willingly staying in the underworld, however, and this reflects the moral danger she's in from his influence. The structure of the chapter is notable in this regard: She spends the first half of it actively seeking him out, and descends into the underground space, emerging at the feast where the first line we read is "The feast proved to be everything her father promised."

tze's write-up on Jon/Sansa spoke extensively on how the myth operates in their arcs, so I'll quote her conclusions on Sansa as they remain relevant for consideration:

Persephone rules over the dead. Sansa's arc has tracked Persephone in some pretty substantial ways: at the beginning of AGOT, when summer was in swing, she was the Stark most heavily associated with the warmth and frivolity of the South, just as Persephone was the flower-loving Goddess of Spring; Sansa was forced to marry, against her will, a man heavily associated with worldly wealth (in Greek mythology, Hades is associated with wealth because gold, silver, and jewels are drawn from beneath the ground, and Hades of course rules the Underworld). As winter approaches, Sansa loses her childlike innocence and naivete. And winter has now hit Westeros, and will presumably hit with a vengeance during TWOW---so what will Sansa become in the winter? Where winter is a time of imprisonment for Persephone, with spring/summer freeing her to walk the warm world above, it seems that summer was a time of imprisonment for Sansa, and winter might end up freeing her. And the story of Persephone ends with Persephone holding dominion over the dead during the winter. This might be a hint toward our pomegranate-associated characters' future, especially given the heavy associations both Jon and Sansa have with the living dead. (With Jon, those associations are obvious---he's a living man who wears black, his direwolf is named Ghost, he's fighting wights. With Sansa, the associations are less obvious but no less profound: Sansa's direwolf is dead (and since the Starks "are" their direwolves, Sansa is both alive and dead simultaneously because part of her is dead while part of her lives on), Littlefinger associates her with Catelyn reborn (and Catelyn has literally become the walking dead), not to mention the Hound: "The Hound is dead" we are told, and this "dead man" of course hated fire---I doubt it's a coincidence that this description of the Hound, as a walking dead man who hates fire, sounds quite a bit like a wight.)

[Milady of York]

If I might connect your post to Brash's, isn't there some aspect of Persephone that has to do with fulfilling curses as Goddess of the Underworld?

Not directly, because she's not Goddess of the Underworld by rights but by marriage to Hades, so it's not her domain proper and it's not within her godly powers to curse anyone. The Hellene gods have very specific functions and usually don't overstep into others's domain. The goddesses in charge of curses are the three Erynies, who dwell in the Underworld and are under command of Hades, so she as his wife does have the authority emanating from him to send them out to punish when curses are invoked in her name or Hades' name, but she can't do it herself. It's like by proxy. Interestingly, the Erynies tend to focus on three types of crimes in particular: murder, kinslaying/betrayal and offences against the gods. As for Persephone herself, her own powers were related to the Spring, but also she was directly responsible for grain growth, a power gotten from her mother.

[Ragnorak]

We're not going to get a one for one metaphorical line up with Persephone, but with LF offering Sansa a pomegranate Martin is obviously playing with the reference. LF is also a failed Hades figure because he failed to get her to eat the pomegranate. It was Demeter who turned away Persephone's suitors and Zeus who permitted Hades to carry her off in a reversal of Cat's advocating for the Joffrey betrothal and Ned resisting it. LF is usurping the role of Sansa's father which by rights ought to fall to her oldest living brother, Bran. Bran has his own Hades associations as he's living in an underworld littered with bones and tapping into the souls and memories of the dead through the weirwoods. It was Zeus who took pity on the starving world and freed Persephone which could fit with Bran (the legitimate Zeus figure of the metaphor) as the Winged Knight and Butterbumps' Sansa as Queen Bread theme. It was also Helios, the sun, who saw Hades come up from the ground to kidnap Persephone who tells Demeter where her daughter is. This could again be Bran/Bloodraven who sees all as Helios does or it could be Jaime who is heavily associated with the sun and soon to be answering questions about Persephone to our angry Demeter zombie.

Persephone explaining the seasons is also a curious angle to explore. Why are the seasons so irregular in ASOIAF? Is it part of or related to the waxing and waning of magic? Is it something caused by the Others and the Long Night? This angle seems to strongly suggest a heavy old gods association. Perhaps it isn't so much about explaining the seasons as it is about Spring returning which would herald a significant role in fighting the Long Night.

...

The bolded is spot on, Rag. As you say, the Persephone myth is a curious one when applied to Sansa's storyline, which makes the irony all the greater in that LF is trying to secure her at a time when she's set to be resurgent. Martin seems to tease with the idea of Sansa willingly staying in the underworld, however, and this reflects the moral danger she's in from his influence. The structure of the chapter is notable in this regard: She spends the first half of it actively seeking him out, and descends into the underground space, emerging at the feast where the first line we read is "The feast proved to be everything her father promised."

tze's write-up on Jon/Sansa spoke extensively on how the myth operates in their arcs, so I'll quote her conclusions on Sansa as they remain relevant for consideration:

...

There's almost an odd reversal here of the safety and danger of Sanas vs. Alayne. In AFFC the Alayne persona was bastard brave and a shield for those who would hunt Sansa Stark. The Alayne persona also seemed the only feeble shield to protect her from LF's Marillion-like advances. It seems the bastard persona is no longer required to effect bravery and the more the power of the Iron Throne diminishes the safer Sansa Stark would be in the Vale compared to an Alayne. It is also now the married Sansa Stark that can protect her from an unwanted marriage that Alayne has no shield for. Alayne is providing Sansa with the tools to achieve what she intended to demand from Lysa before Marillion, the Moon Door, and LF set her back. All the Starks dwell in the underworld in the sense that people suspect they all might be dead. With Sansa and Arya that underworld association is strongly tied to identity as well. With both Stark girls, resuming their Stark identity is the equivalent of exiting the underworld. In both a practical sense and a literary thematic one, LF cannot possess what he holds without destroying his ability to hold it. The dramatic tension of a Sansa trapped in the underworld is there, but if we shift our perspectives to Petyr's POV his position is far more dire and his underworld is slipping through his little fingers faster than he can scheme to keep it.

Not directly, because she's not Goddess of the Underworld by rights but by marriage to Hades, so it's not her domain proper and it's not within her godly powers to curse anyone. The Hellene gods have very specific functions and usually don't overstep into others's domain. The goddesses in charge of curses are the three Erynies, who dwell in the Underworld and are under command of Hades, so she as his wife does have the authority emanating from him to send them out to punish when curses are invoked in her name or Hades' name, but she can't do it herself. It's like by proxy. Interestingly, the Erynies tend to focus on three types of crimes in particular: murder, kinslaying/betrayal and offences against the gods. As for Persephone herself, her own powers were related to the Spring, but also she was directly responsible for grain growth, a power gotten from her mother.

Ok, let's play with those. Brash reminds us that Sansa wished for Slynt's death for the crime of murder. Slynt also was guilty of betrayal and according to the High Septon offenses against the gods. In the Sandor thread you linked the irony of Joffrey dying by drowning in wine just as Sansa said he would if he killed a man on his nameday. At the Blackwater she wishes for men to abandon Joffrey and we see that in general with the Goldcloaks, specifically with Sandor, and in a prolonged ironic way with the Tyrell forces who are only here to kill Joffrey and steal his throne. Joffrey also has all three covered just for his role in Ned's death. As a bastard born of incest he is technically an offense to the gods. What else do we have in terms of Sansa wishing ill on someone or predicting some future fate?

Those offenses also seem to fit with Sansa being the younger and more beautiful figure of Cersei's nightmares.