(TWOW Spoilers) From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XXII

[Milady of York]

I think George has put a lot of thought into the inner monologue of people in disguise, as he's using the alternate identity theme really heavily with Arya and Sansa. I think you're right on the money as far as picking out clues to her mindset, as sometimes she thinks Sansa thoughts and shows her vulnerability and scar tissue, while as Alayne she's projecting something more like a front. It's really fascinating use of the unreliable / limited narrator technique. .

She is being very Sansa in her reaction to praise on her intelligence, but very Alayne in her reaction to praise on her physical beauty. As I noted in the Sandor reread, in King's Landing she grew accustomed to being called stupid by everybody from Joffrey to Cersei to Sandor, and it took a heavy toll on her self-esteem coupled with the beatings; at one point she thinks that she was convinced nothing after her father's beheading could hurt her anymore but then Joffrey tells her his mother thinks she's stupid and this pains her. And in the godswood before Blackwater, she tells Dontos that people take her for an idiot, which Dontos says should play to her favour, for nobody pays attention to the fools. Dontos is the only one at the time to tell her she's clever, and he does sound like Littlefinger in that context, who eventually comes to notice that Sansa reacts positively to being told she's "clever" because that boosts her self-esteem and she feels like she's good ideas, and uses it to his favour to keep her going along with his plans.

In the sample chapter, she's now on the other extreme of the King's Landing experience: she thirstily absorbs compliments on her cleverness from Littlefinger, which distracts her from the danger, but all that is deep down the PTSD-like effects of her abuse in the Red Keep, where she was made to feel like she was one hollow-headed pretty girl with no value but a claim and apt to be a punching bag to the king whenever he pleased. Small wonder then that she behaves like this now. Additionally, her new attitude towards compliments on her prettiness can be linked to her experience with Joffrey too, because her striking good looks was all he ever valued in her, to the point of explicitly stating she shouldn't be hit in the face so she stayed beautiful. So, now those compliments have no value anymore, and she talks back and contradicts gallantry or uses it to mock the men, when old Sansa blushed modestly when she was told what a beauty she was and cared so much for looking her best, always.

[LmL]

:agree: :bowdown: :ninja:

translation: I agree so much that you must be a ninja and I worship ninjas. bravo.

[Mad Madam Mim]

^^^ Great observations about the details of her inner monologue. I think George has put a lot of thought into the inner monologue of people in disguise, as he's using the alternate identity theme really heavily with Arya and Sansa. I think you're right on the money as far as picking out clues to her mindset, as sometimes she thinks Sansa thoughts and shows her vulnerability and scar tissue, while as Alayne she's projecting something more like a front. It's really fascinating use of the unreliable / limited narrator technique.

Initially in ASOIAF, we are presented with the dichotomy of politically savvy people with no morals whatsoever - Littlefinger, Cersei, etc - contrasted with Ned, who is totally honorable but foolish politically. What we need are a third type, people smart enough to play politics but who still retain a connection to morality. Sansa is being set up to do just that. Tyrion leaps to mind. Jon needs to become this. Dany also needs to become this. Varys may be a very machiavellian version of this.

'Projecting a front' is the perfect word choice. Just as Sansa makes the distinction between Petyr and Littlefinger, Sansa uses Alayne as a confident facade to Sansa's vulnerability. She comments in the chapter that Littlefinger gives her "one of those smiles that did not reach his eyes" and Sansa seems to have adopted this for the Alayne persona; a smile that does not reach her eyes. There is no thought behind her words as Alayne, there are no feelings behind her actions as Alayne, it is a front delivered courtesy of Littlefinger. (Some of us have dubbed this the Sansa flirt-o-bot.)

ETA: Compare this with her first meeting with Harry...

This time her eyes met Harry’s. She smiled just for him, and said a silent prayer to the Maiden

She did not have the benefit of Littlefinger's tutelage and guidance as she was unable to find him in time so she has to meet Harry on her own. Sansa is very much present in her mind, she is nervous, she thinks about Joffrey and Robb, she frets over her hair and her appearance, she pleas for Harry to like her. The smile Sansa offers Harry is genuine at this point. Unfortunately Harry verbally slaps it off her face.

[Milady of York]

'Projecting a front' is the perfect word choice. Just as Sansa makes the distinction between Petyr and Littlefinger, Sansa uses Alayne as a confident facade to Sansa's vulnerability. She comments in the chapter that Littlefinger gives her "one of those smiles that did not reach his eyes" and Sansa seems to have adopted this for the Alayne persona; a smile that does not reach her eyes. There is no thought behind her words as Alayne, there are no feelings behind her actions as Alayne, it is a complete front delivered courtesy of Littlefinger. (Some of us have dubbed this the Sansa flirt-o-bot.)

That's quite inaccurate to claim, actually, because Alayne isn't an unthinking robotic self but a fully sentient persona. That her thoughts and feelings don't correspond to her real self as Sansa Stark doesn't make Alayne an automaton, and it's quite puzzling that this should be a consideration, when we've seen plenty of examples where Alayne shows what kind of person with feelings she is. I believe you're misconstruing the nature of "method-acting" as emptying oneself of all thinking and feeling and acting as if on automatic pilot, when in reality method-acting means adopting the thoughts, feelings, beliefs and behaviour of a wholly different persona, i.e. be another character with a whole new set of characteristics. Besides, Alayne isn't completely void of Sansa characteristics either; in fact, in this chapter we see the confluence of both as she's integrating useful bits of one into the other, like her being "bastard brave" is very handy for Sansa, and she goes between one and the other quite seamlessly according to the circumstances.

[brashcandy]

That's quite inaccurate to claim, actually, because Alayne isn't an unthinking robotic self but a fully sentient persona. That her thoughts and feelings don't correspond to her real self as Sansa Stark doesn't make Alayne an automaton, and it's quite puzzling that this should be a consideration, when we've seen plenty of examples where Alayne shows what kind of person with feelings she is. I believe you're misconstruing the nature of "method-acting" as emptying oneself of all thinking and feeling and acting as if on automatic pilot, when in reality method-acting means adopting the thoughts, feelings, beliefs and behaviour of a wholly different persona, i.e. be another character with a whole new set of characteristics. Besides, Alayne isn't completely void of Sansa characteristics either; in fact, in this chapter we see the confluence of both as she's integrating useful bits of one into the other, like her being "bastard brave" is very handy for Sansa, and she goes between one and the other quite seamlessly according to the circumstances.

Indeed. As a matter of fact, as I noted upthread, Alayne's attempts to charm Harry utilise the very same strategies that Sansa once tried with Joffrey, when she gave "a shy secret smile, just for him" while pleading for mercy for Ned in AGOT. That tells us more interesting things about Harry's characterisation than it does about the genuine nature of Sansa's interactions with him before LF's intervention. Alayne may be LF's creation, but Sansa has found a way to imbue this persona with her own unique gifts and strengths, and gains confidence from Alayne's ability to be more naturally bold and audacious. We see the potential benefits of this when she interacts with men like Lyn Corbray and begins to realise that he may not be as loyal to her father's interests as he is being paid to be.

[Mad Madam Mim]

That's quite inaccurate to claim, actually, because Alayne isn't an unthinking robotic self but a fully sentient persona. That her thoughts and feelings don't correspond to her real self as Sansa Stark doesn't make Alayne an automaton, and it's quite puzzling that this should be a consideration, when we've seen plenty of examples where Alayne shows what kind of person with feelings she is. I believe you're misconstruing the nature of "method-acting" as emptying oneself of all thinking and feeling and acting as if on automatic pilot, when in reality method-acting means adopting the thoughts, feelings, beliefs and behaviour of a wholly different persona, i.e. be another character with a whole new set of characteristics. Besides, Alayne isn't completely void of Sansa characteristics either; in fact, in this chapter we see the confluence of both as she's integrating useful bits of one into the other, like her being "bastard brave" is very handy for Sansa, and she goes between one and the other quite seamlessly according to the circumstances.

My interpretation is that Alayne is the confident front, and in terms of the latter half of the chapter where she is dancing with Harry she seems to have adopted the behaviour of "method acting", but I felt it was the thoughts, beliefs and feelings that seem to be conspicuous in their absence during the dance. It seemed to contrast the rest of the chapter where these are more prevalent. She talks about Harry needing to like her, but what does she want? She doesn’t say.

Perhaps it is not a question of the Alayne persona but more of a question of Littlefinger’s influence over the both of them.

Just my view.

[Milady of York]

My interpretation is that Alayne is the confident front, and in terms of the latter half of the chapter where she is dancing with Harry she seems to have adopted the behaviour of "method acting", but I felt it was the thoughts, beliefs and feelings that seem to be conspicuous in their absence during the dance. It seemed to contrast the rest of the chapter where these are more prevalent. She talks about Harry needing to like her, but what does she want? She doesn’t say.

Perhaps it is not a question of the Alayne persona but more of a question of Littlefinger’s influence over the both of them.

Your assertion was that there were no thoughts and no feelings behind Alayne, and now you're saying that she's adopted the behaviour but not the thoughts and feelings and beliefs, which again is quite contradictory. What exactly do you understand as behaviour if not feelings, thoughts and actions combined? If you believe Alayne is just the behaviour part of method-acting, then you're again misconstruing it altogether, and repeating that she's acting as if on automatic pilot, which isn't true. The whole front of Alayne is in itself method-acting, you cannot separate just bits and say Alayne isn't thinking nor feeling like Alayne, just acting like Alayne. At best you can say she's not thinking nor feeling nor behaving like Sansa. And to be honest, the very fact that she's acting like Alayne is in itself an indication of Littlefinger's influence, not a separate matter.

Additionally, when she's dancing with Harry, you'd have to consider that again this is from Sansa: she's incorporating Sansa's feelings and thoughts and desires into this persona. In her last chapter, she was worrying about whether she'd have to dance or not as Alayne, since Sansa loved to dance. Look at her now, Alayne also likes to dance, so she "imbued Alayne with her unique set of gifts and strenghts" as Brashcandy said, and that in itself is an indication of thoughts and feelings, which don't need to be spelt out because the behaviour itself tells it.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

At this time, I'm thinking of "Alayne" as something like Ned Stark's "lord's face." Bran notes this when we meet Ned for the very first time - when dealing with official business, let alone executions, Ned dons his lord's face, but when he's at home with the kids, he's Ned, telling stories of the Age of Heroes by the fire. (I wonder where Sansa inherited her love of stories, hmm? ;) ) Sansa is in much more harrowing circumstances than Ned was in Winterfell, but her Alayne persona functions much the same, as a protector and official face for the real Sansa.

I also see a parallel between Sansa's existence as Alayne, and Arya's training to forget who she really is in the House of Black and White. The idea being that neither sister can really forget who she is and leave aside being Sansa or Arya Stark. (And how I want a sisterly reunion!)

[LongRider]

At this time, I'm thinking of "Alayne" as something like Ned Stark's "lord's face." Bran notes this when we meet Ned for the very first time - when dealing with official business, let alone executions, Ned dons his lord's face, but when he's at home with the kids, he's Ned, telling stories of the Age of Heroes by the fire. (I wonder where Sansa inherited her love of stories, hmm? ;) ) Sansa is in much more harrowing circumstances than Ned was in Winterfell, but her Alayne persona functions much the same, as a protector and official face for the real Sansa.

I also see a parallel between Sansa's existence as Alayne, and Arya's training to forget who she really is in the House of Black and White. The idea being that neither sister can really forget who she is and leave aside being Sansa or Arya Stark. (And how I want a sisterly reunion!)

Yes, there are parallels with Sansa and Arya, both with no place else to go, pressure to become someone else and push down their real selves. I feel that this applies to Bran in many ways as well. Each one is with a mentor or teacher who, while teaching valuable skills, is also not looking out for their best interest.

[Milady of York]

At this time, I'm thinking of "Alayne" as something like Ned Stark's "lord's face." Bran notes this when we meet Ned for the very first time - when dealing with official business, let alone executions, Ned dons his lord's face, but when he's at home with the kids, he's Ned, telling stories of the Age of Heroes by the fire. (I wonder where Sansa inherited her love of stories, hmm? ;) ) Sansa is in much more harrowing circumstances than Ned was in Winterfell, but her Alayne persona functions much the same, as a protector and official face for the real Sansa.

I am not sure we can accurately equate Ned's Lord's Face, or Robb the Lord for that matter, to Alayne. For starters, in both Lords Stark, their public facade is a demeanour demanded by the responsibilities of their position as lieges, much like a person would become more solemn or more polite than in their usual everyday behaviour in certain circumstances like during a business conference or at church service to name some situations. Besides, when Eddard and Robb are behaving like that, they're still being Lord Eddard and Lord Robb, that demeanour is still part of their usual selves and intrinsic of their personalities as one is naturally solemn and the other has had to learn to be stately due to the demands of his status. They're not being different and having to pretend to be what they're not. Therefore, if we want to find a simile for that in Sansa, that'd have to be her courtesy armour and not the Alayne persona. That courtesy armour is exactly what the Lord's Face was for her father and brother, and it was an indivisible part of Sansa's personality, since she's naturally courteous and polite, and she had to polish and improve on it for her own protection. Alayne, however, although it's a persona that does possess characteristics of Sansa, is a whole new character and demands of her to behave, think and feel like someone else altogether, and for this reason isn't remotely comparable, and besides there's the fact that it was imposed on her and not chosen or developed smoothly as a result of a normal upbringing and adaptating to the changing circumstances of growing up like the Lord's Face was.

[Old Ida]

...... for that in Sansa, that'd have to be her courtesy armour and not the Alayne persona. That courtesy armour is exactly what the Lord's Face was for her father and brother, and it was an indivisible part of Sansa's personality, since she's naturally courteous and polite, and she had to polish and improve on it for her own protection. Alayne, however, although it's a persona that does possess characteristics of Sansa, is a whole new character and demands of her to behave, think and feel like someone else altogether, and for this reason isn't remotely comparable, and besides there's the fact that it was imposed on her and not chosen or developed smoothly as a result of a normal upbringing and adaptating to the changing circumstances of growing up like the Lord's Face was.

This I agree with

Sorry I lost the first part of the Quote. I have the feeling that Sansa is all there but as Arya hide her Needle Sansa hide her self inside Alayne. In this chapter she is very busy but I am sure Sansa picks up everything Alayne sees and hears. She has for her a giant puzzle and she need some more of them to see the whole picture. And when she does I hope we will see Sansa Stark whole again but keeping all she has learned as Alayne to make her stronger and braver.

[Milady of York]

We're continuing the posting of more analysis pieces over at our new website, and right now the first part of a long in-depth analysis of Littlefinger's political and economic scheming as it relates to Sansa, written by Ragnorak, was posted here.

 

Hope we can continue with an interesting discussion and comments over at the website.

[Grail King]

Just on first page ( been away from PtP along time ), but I agree with Bastardly Rock and Sansa wanting to rush to Petyr and tell him her joke, I also was somewhat questioning her not being the least bit interested in looking at the papers on the floor when she picked them up or why was the window opened in Petyr's solar.

[TheReal_Rebel]

It seems likely out of gratitude Sansa may give her favor to Wallace.

But has anyone given any thought to the possibility that Lyn Corbrey may either maneuver or take advantage of a situation by which he may take vengence on LF by slaying Harry in the tourney?

While LF has taken great care, no doubt, to have control over who enters the lists, might not SR find an unexpected way to add Harry?

Thus two "pawns" not behaving the way LF expects begins his great unraveling?

[Mithras]

But has anyone given any thought to the possibility that Lyn Corbrey may either maneuver or take advantage of a situation by which he may take vengence on LF by slaying Harry in the tourney?

 

I have. The first thing I thought after reading tha chapter is that Lyn Corbray will kill Harry in the melee.

[Grail King]

 

I have. The first thing I thought after reading tha chapter is that Lyn Corbray will kill Harry in the melee.

Not sure if it be Lyn, but I too think HTH is dying in the melee.

[TheReal_Rebel]

I have. The first thing I thought after reading tha chapter is that Lyn Corbray will kill Harry in the melee.

The fact that we see Corbray nearly kill a larger man is either a foreshadowing or a misdirection. Either way. it makes Alayne & the readers uneasy.

The melee is definitely the where, I'm still mulling on the why and how it benefits Ser Lyn other than hurting LF's plans.

Not sure if it be Lyn, but I too think HTH is dying in the melee.

I do too. And I keep thinking it will be by Ser Lyn or by Robin.

But I had another thought, and maybe I should bring it up in a new Topic.

Is it possible that LF's plans for Sansa & HtH is a lie? That he might want to off HtH? Or that it occurs to Ser Lyn to win Alayne for himself to screw with LF? Or that it would suit LF for Sansa to marry Ser Lyn?

I just sense there is more LF has planned and that the underlying conflicts within the Vale are going to boil over during the tourney.

[Grail King]

The fact that we see Corbray nearly kill a larger man is either a foreshadowing or a misdirection. Either way. it makes Alayne & the readers uneasy.

The melee is definitely the where, I'm still mulling on the why and how it benefits Ser Lyn other than hurting LF's plans.

I do too. And I keep thinking it will be by Ser Lyn or by Robin.

But I had another thought, and maybe I should bring it up in a new Topic.

Is it possible that LF's plans for Sansa & HtH is a lie? That he might want to off HtH? Or that it occurs to Ser Lyn to win Alayne for himself to screw with LF? Or that it would suit LF for Sansa to marry Ser Lyn?

I just sense there is more LF has planned and that the underlying conflicts within the Vale are going to boil over during the tourney.

I think he's planning on HTH to die and the melee it would look like an accident, I also think he rigged the tourney to get some high born hostages.

[brashcandy]

The fact that we see Corbray nearly kill a larger man is either a foreshadowing or a misdirection. Either way. it makes Alayne & the readers uneasy.

The melee is definitely the where, I'm still mulling on the why and how it benefits Ser Lyn other than hurting LF's plans.

I do too. And I keep thinking it will be by Ser Lyn or by Robin.

But I had another thought, and maybe I should bring it up in a new Topic.

Is it possible that LF's plans for Sansa & HtH is a lie? That he might want to off HtH? Or that it occurs to Ser Lyn to win Alayne for himself to screw with LF? Or that it would suit LF for Sansa to marry Ser Lyn?

I just sense there is more LF has planned and that the underlying conflicts within the Vale are going to boil over during the tourney.

 

 

I think he's planning on HTH to die and the melee it would look like an accident, I also think he rigged the tourney to get some high born hostages.

 

 

Hey guys, I'd recommend heading over to the active speculative thread currently discussing the sample chapter in the TWOW subforum. This PTP thread is on semi-hiatus until the book is released, and will only be used to post updates about essays featured at the website and any other specific news we want to share with readers here. Thanks!

[the Scorpion Knight]

 

I have. The first thing I thought after reading tha chapter is that Lyn Corbray will kill Harry in the melee.

I have the feeling aegon will kill HtH