(TWOW Spoilers) From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XXII

[Ser Creighton]

I think Robin being more vocal in wanting to marry Alayne is actually a believable development if we recall this is the same sickly boy who wanted to convince her to stay with him in the Eyrie and "kiss and play games." He's been possessive of the friendship because he has a crush, and she's become the closest thing to a maternal figure in his life after Lysa's death. What I found a little bit off was Mya acting so bewildered around him. She's come across as much more composed and stern before, although I suppose Martin wants us to believe she's preoccupied with the presence of Mychel Redfort. And if Mychel were to win wings, as Sansa says he's favoured to do, Mya would have to see a lot more of him than usual.

I think Mychel was a small part of it, but I think Martin was just more focused on Sansa' development and showing the greater influence she has over Robin now. With Mya I think she may have been caught off guard by his comment about Harry and she certainly can't go tell Harry and them to leave. But I also I simply felt she did not want to deal with Robin as many don't including Sansa and she bailed as quickly as she could without having to be put in an akward position and Sansa clearly deals with him. Robin is not upset with Mya simply the arrival of Harry and there really was nothing she could do about it as that situation is between Sansa and Robin and was addressed as such. Just seemed a bit caught off guard and left quickly to let Sansa deal with that problem between her and Robin.

[Colonel Green]

Random additional comments about the chapter:

- Ser Lothor Brune, and Sansa's relationship with him, are aspects of the series I'm really not sure exactly what to make of. It boils down to the fact that his seeming character and her high regard for him just, to me, seem completely at odds with his job description as Littlefinger's hatchet man and most trusted minion (and compared to other people Sansa has encountered in ambiguous contexts and come to trust or appreciate to some degree -- like the Hound, Dontos, Tyrion, Shae in the TV show -- it's never been clear that Brune did anything in particular to earn this regard).

- Harry Hardyng's general character will no doubt be a fierce topic of discussion (already has been on Tumblr, etc.), and while undoubtedly his behaviour on meeting Sansa was snobbish and unkind, I think one should in fairness note that I'm hard-pressed to think of any noble-born men in the series who would react especially favourably to being told to marry a bastard (Ser Roland and Ser Wallace are charming on meeting Alayne, but they don't have to marry her); and probably this reaction wouldn't be all that different amongst the women (someone like Arya, perhaps, excluded). Sansa herself had a viscerally negative reaction to being asked to pose as a bastard when the "Alayne" disguise was introduced. That makes Harry's reaction both a good means to illustrate her development as a character and, I realized on reading it, really the first instance in the history of the Alayne disguise where Sansa is actually confronted with outright bastard prejudice; in the prior two books, while conscious of her lowered social station, we mainly see her acting in what is still a privileged manner, particularly while serving as the Eyrie's chatelaine and playing hostess to a group of mostly-amenable lords (a very crass jokes aside). But I don't think it really sets Harry much apart from other people of his social class, Sansa included, prior to her current storyline.

- What does not speak particularly well for his individual character is his rather cavalierly-recounted discarding of his first paramour after she got too fat post-pregnancy.

[brashcandy]

I think Mychel was a small part of it, but I think Martin was just more focused on Sansa' development and showing the greater influence she has over Robin now. With Mya I think she may have been caught off guard by his comment about Harry and she certainly can't go tell Harry and them to leave. But I also I simply felt she did not want to deal with Robin as many don't including Sansa and she bailed as quickly as she could without having to be put in an akward position and Sansa clearly deals with him. Robin is not upset with Mya simply the arrival of Harry and there really was nothing she could do about it as that situation is between Sansa and Robin and was addressed as such. Just seemed a bit caught off guard and left quickly to let Sansa deal with that problem between her and Robin.

Yeah, this is likely it, and Sansa does mention that Mya is much more comfortable dealing with the animals than navigating these political situations. And thanks for sharing your thoughts in the thread!

Random additional comments about the chapter:

- Ser Lothor Brune, and Sansa's relationship with him, are aspects of the series I'm really not sure exactly what to make of. It boils down to the fact that his seeming character and her high regard for him just, to me, seem completely at odds with his job description as Littlefinger's hatchet man and most trusted minion (and compared to other people Sansa has encountered in ambiguous contexts and come to trust or appreciate to some degree -- like the Hound, Dontos, Tyrion, Shae in the TV show -- it's never been clear that Brune did anything in particular to earn this regard).

A valid question. I think this is where we see Sansa's ability to look past people's associations and alliances and come to regard them for their qualities and values come into play. She knows Brune works for Littlefinger, but the first thing we see her appreciating about him in ASOS is that he's "stronger than he looks." She also seems to appreciate that he's one of those few "talk less, do more" kind of men, and his interest in Mya Stone appeals to her romantic side. Furthermore, she and Brune have shared confidences: he tells her about the family that didn't accept him and how he's come up through life the hard way. Sansa's gotten to know the man and not judged him by his master, and that seems to have been reinforced by this new chapter.

As for Harry, he's not the only person who holds a prejudice against bastardy, no, but being so rude directly to someone's face doesn't speak highly of him on the question of personal manners and character, especially when it was so unnecessary.

[Milady of York]

- What does not speak particularly well for his individual character is his rather cavalierly-recounted discarding of his first paramour after she got too fat post-pregnancy.

Yes, that line raised my eyebrows up to my forehead, practically. So, if you've just been called out on being rude to a lady, and are trying to make amends with her, when she talks of the mother of your child, you just go and call her a fat cow with no shame nor a thought on how it may make you look like? To the girl you want to be forgiven by and charm, no less. This and his behaviour towards Alayne on meeting her give unfavourable impressions. I'd think that, whilst it's quite correct that he's behaving like a nobleman and with a nobleman's low opinion for bastards and smallfolk, it's also clear that this is an example of Harry's lack ot tact and basic diplomacy. Sansa herself hasn't been rude to people of inferior rank to their face necessarily, limiting it to thoughts only or to her small circle of friends. Hardyng, however, expressed it in a social circumstance and very deliberately so on top of all, so it was meant to cause her discomfort. That doesn't speak highly of him, because he's taking his unhappiness out on the girl who, for all he knows, might be as unwilling as himself in this marriage. A high lord has to have a measure of diplomacy and tact, more so if he means to inherit a rich territory whose lords are currently divided.

[Mochimomo]

Petyr drew her close and kissed her on both cheeks. “The night belongs to you, sweetling, Remember that, always.”

This bit about the night belonging to Sansa struck me. It seems like a super weird thing to say? I mean, it's possible LF means it in a sexual, pimp-y kinda way. ( :ack:) However, it put me in the mind of Sansa's real father and how he said something along the lines of Sansa and Arya being as different as the sun and the moon, and also Arya's returns to the House of Black and White on nights with no moon. Is it not-so-subtle hinting at Sansa coming fully into her own personal power (especially with a Long Night coming), and re-embracing her Stark identity? Because I'm already sooo happy with her greater agency and general happiness in this new chapter, even considering that the threat of being discovered is even greater now. Happy + visibly confident Sansa gives me such life!!

And I just need to add I am so thrilled the PtP project is back; I've been devouring everything from the past years for a long time now and wow I feel like I'm among celebrities, you guys are all like literary analysis superstars to me.

[Ser Creighton]

Yeah, this is likely it, and Sansa does mention that Mya is much more comfortable dealing with the animals than navigating these political situations. And thanks for sharing your thoughts in the thread!

A valid question. I think this is where we see Sansa's ability to look past people's associations and alliances and come to regard them for their qualities and values come into play. She knows Brune works for Littlefinger, but the first thing we see her appreciating about him in ASOS is that he's "stronger than he looks." She also seems to appreciate that he's one of those few "talk less, do more" kind of men, and his interest in Mya Stone appeals to her romantic side. Furthermore, she and Brune have shared confidences: he tells her about the family that didn't accept him and how he's come up through life the hard way. Sansa's gotten to know the man and not judged him by his master, and that seems to have been reinforced by this new chapter.

As for Harry, he's not the only person who holds a prejudice against bastardy, no, but being so rude directly to someone's face doesn't speak highly of him on the question of personal manners and character, especially when it was so unnecessary.

Well thanks for having me, I did enjoy the new Sansa chapter while still in a raw state I thought it was very intresting and I got my fingers crossed for her, though I will always see LF as a user no matter how well he treats her and I can't trust him at all.

I agree on Lothor, ummm I actually find him intresting because he has been around since the tourney of the hand and we have seen him climb to the status of a Landed Knight. She has always seemed ok with him, even though he gave the order to kill Dontos. But always considered him to have an honest face, and as you say Mya and of course he protected her from that Harpist. I am curious if there is a Jorah parallel there, though not sure yet. The Bear paw and all that, not the same but he is sort of around when she needs him. Though his loyalty right now seeems to be LF, though that can always change. And yes they have a sort of cohesive unit feel right now with her and LF, they are all on that team so to speak, and she is playing her part well.

I guess with the Jorah thing I see this sort of Bear symbolism with the paw, and he works for LF like Jorah worked for Varys but he may be coming to appreciate Sansa, not sure if that is right. But I am sure he appreciated the hug and the fact that she has never looked down at him for being a freerider. I'll leave it to the Sansa experts such as yourself and Lady G to figure out.

ETA: Just wanted to add that Lothor also seems to have a bit of a Bronn like aspect between him and LF, which is intresting given Sansa's relationship with Tyrion. Sort of a mix between Jorah and Bronn I guess.

[Milady of York]

This bit about the night belonging to Sansa struck me. It seems like a super weird thing to say? I mean, it's possible LF means it in a sexual, pimp-y kinda way. ( :ack:) However, it put me in the mind of Sansa's real father and how he said something along the lines of Sansa and Arya being as different as the sun and the moon, and also Arya's returns to the House of Black and White on nights with no moon. Is it not-so-subtle hinting at Sansa coming fully into her own personal power (especially with a Long Night coming), and re-embracing her Stark identity? Because I'm already sooo happy with her greater agency and general happiness in this new chapter, even considering that the threat of being discovered is even greater now. Happy + visibly confident Sansa gives me such life!!

Welcome to our thread, Mochimomo, and many thanks for your kind words!

Your musings do have a point, and it'd be interesting to consider if this has some foreshadowing potential. From a literary standpoint, that is one line belonging to the passages that exhibit the worse writing in this chapter, in my opinion, so I had not considered if it could have some meaning along the lines you posit. Besides that, what leapt off at me was that right before Littlefinger sends Alayne away to seduce Harry at the banquet, he gives her kisses on the cheeks. This is the second instance of Littlefinger being "affectionate," the first is earlier:

It had fallen out just as Petyr said it would, the day the ravens flew. “They’re young, eager, hungry for adventure and renown. Lysa would not let them go to war. This is the next best thing. A chance to serve their lord and prove their prowess. They will come. Even Harry the Heir.” He had smoothed her hair and kissed her forehead. “What a clever daughter you are.”

I bring this up because of a thought I had: the Mockingbird seems to be acting a bit more careful with regard to his physical expressions of lust towards Alayne at the Gates of the Moon, compared to how he liked to kiss her on the mouth and how he wanted non-"dutiful" kisses in her last chapter. This to me says he's aware that he could be caught, there's more people in this castle than usual due to the tourney, and it'd not be convenient for him to be seen being unfatherly with her. Yet, for all his care, he seems to be less guarded with his papers, which makes me wonder if it'll be either some papers or being seen/overhead with Alayne what might lead to serious trouble for him.

[Direwolf Resilience]

Yes! A return of my favorite thread, and a new chapter from my favourite character! Woot woot!
(Sorry if I sound overenthusiastic and indecorous, but I'm just so happy I have a place to vent my appreciation for the Pawn to Player threads that's not locked.)

[brashcandy]

Welcome to the thread, Mochimomo!

ETA: Just wanted to add that Lothor also seems to have a bit of a Bronn like aspect between him and LF, which is intresting given Sansa's relationship with Tyrion. Sort of a mix between Jorah and Bronn I guess.

I can't speak all that well to the Jorah comparison (woefully in need of a Dany reread), but I've always found Lothor to have the most compelling similarities with the Hound. Bronn I would rule out since his working for Tyrion is motivated for mercenary reasons first and foremost, and I never got a sense of that from Lothor's association with LF. As you point out, we've seen him from the Hand's tourney onwards, and he shows a serious approach to competition, most notably in contrast to Dontos at the name-day tourney, and later on fights honourably at Blackwater. Brune appears to be fairly simple man, trying to earn a living and advance himself by the only options available to him, but Sansa can uncover hidden layers under just about anyone :)

Yes! A return of my favorite thread, and a new chapter from my favourite character! Woot woot!
(Sorry if I sound overenthusiastic and indecorous, but I'm just so happy I have a place to vent my appreciation for the Pawn to Player threads that's not locked.)

Thank you!! We're happy to be back and able to share this chapter with everyone, new and old.

[Mahaut]

Yet, for all his care, he seems to be less guarded with his papers, which makes me wonder if it'll be either some papers or being seen/overhead with Alayne what might lead to serious trouble for him.

I was particularly struck by this passage when I read the chapter for the first time. Littlefinger’s papers are blown by the wind and Sansa picks them up. Could it foreshadow the failure of Littlefinger’s plans and Sansa pursuing them for her own benefit? It’s interesting that one of these papers concerns the tourney’s participants. A sign that something unexpected might come from this direction?

[Lyanna Stark]

Regarding Lothor Brune and his allegiances: he tried to go to the Brunes in Brownhollow as he is a distant cousin to them, but they wouldn't have him, hence his allegiance to Littlefinger is probably quite secure, although one never knows. He seems to like to talk to Sansa, since he confesses this while drunk.

Lyn Corbray stands out as one of the most interesting characters in this chapter. We've seen him before in AGOT as Lysa's suitor (of all things!) in AFFC as the "frenemy" of LF but here we see that LF has probably misjudged how pissed off Lyn would get now when he's been bumped down the ladder of inheritance. Lyn's allegiance also seems to be for sale, even before Sansa's commentary of a "bag of gold" and his money problems, since Ser Lyn fought first against king Robert and then against the Targaryens in Robert's rebellion. It makes me wonder if Sansa could use ser Lyn, since he is a dangerous man, but a good fighter. I still hope she'll bestow her favour on him since that would be ROFL-cakes and Harry would never beat Ser Lyn. :lol: Which would humiliate him something rotten. It's also likely that Lyn will be skilled enough to end up among the Winged Knights, should he wish. And Sweetrobin is afraid of Lyn Corbray, for probably good reason, too.

With regards to Harry, another interesting character. The "Pride and Prejudice" parallels were not lost on me, but I don't think Harry is going to turn into Darcy just like that. If we judge men by WWNSD, i.e. What Would Ned Stark Do? then Harry fails, since he is first nedlessly rude (which Ned would never be), then he insults his first mistress ("fat cow") and praises the second one's beauty in front of his betrothed. Overall, dear Harry comes across as a priviliged boy who doesn't understand the consequences of his actions. He may look the part, but he certainly doesn't have the quality or smarts or skills of people like Ned, Tywin, Tyrion or even Jaime. Hell, Robb came across as a more mature person. Jon certainly does. In Cat's words: these are the knights of summer and Harry is definitely a knight of summer.

Interesting to note too was that Littlefinger et al in the basement were quite dismissive of Harry's skills as a knight. Bronze Yohn allowed him to go even though the general consensus is that Harry is kinda shite at fighting and is a "glorifed squire".

In any case, I think Sansa will bestow her favour either on Lothor Brune or Lyn Corbray. Which could also be a good way of cementing alliances with any of these men. Lyn is proud and prickly and Lothor, well, he's probably never had a lady's favour to carry so he might be ever so pleased just to get the chance of some extra glory.

Other things:

* Food is being hoarded in the Vale, meaning I think the theory that the Vale will feed Westeros later will come true. We also know Jon Snow is sending to the Vale for food to the Nights Watch, and given that Sansa is "picking up the papers" after LF, perhaps she will end up sorting that problem out.

* Tapestries! Royal glory to the Vale and its "mini court" and Nestor Royce gets to feel extra puffed up. Nice one LF.

* Mention of Tyrion being alive and how Sansa can't marry as long as he is. Harry the Arse is being cockblocked by absentee dwarf. It even rhymes.

* Sansa does get her identites messe up in the beginning. She tells Sweetrobin that any child of theirs will be baseborn, which is not true. Any child with Sansa Stark would be baseborn as she is already married, while Alayne Stone might be a bastard, but she is a Lord Protector and Lord Paramount's bastard. Sure, it would be a huge social faux paux for Sweetrobin to marry someone's bastard, but that in itself won't make the offspring a bastard. I am not sure if Sansa is just telling Sweetrobin this to get him off her case, or whether she is genuinely mixing up her identities here.

* It's clear LF is working hard to please Sansa, with the giant lemon cake and telling her she is a clever daughter. Notice also how now Sansa is being referred to as clever almost more than she is referred to as good looking.

*The whole debacle with Myranda's feeling for Harry really makes me hope Sansa can somehow arrange for them to get together in the end. Randa doesn't seem to mind his bastards all that much, while Sansa seems to find it somewhere between embarrassing, hilarious and sad. She definitely does not see it as a positive character trait.

I know a lot of people have thought the tone was off, but compare it to the "Mercy" chapter, and the tone there is also different. More upbeat despite the horrors, faster and with a far more grown up tone than earlier Arya chapters. I feel this Sansa chapter is something similar, in that it works as a staging ground for future more "grown up" Sansa chapters. Both sisters are a good way through their learning phases and they are now getting to the stage where they can apply some of their knowledge.

Timeline:

This kinda confused me. The knights have stayed at the Gates of the Moon for over a month, and before that there must have been planning, invitations, purchasing of presents, people travelling, etc. which logically puts this several months after Sansa descended from the Eyrie.

[AllOfTheHours]

Hi, everyone! I am so excited for this brand new Pawn to Player thread! :) Brashcady was kind enough to invite me to repost some thoughts I had about Harry the Heir and GRRM's use of "spices," and how that connects (or disconnects) from Robb.

This is my original post, initially intended just to explore my apprehensions about HtH:

Well, I think the issue is that we aren't just auditioning him to be Alayne's betrothed, but a partner who helps take back Winterfell, and (as far as anyone knows in story) the future Warden of the North (or King of the North) with Sansa as the only known living heir.

The main issue with him is the first thing he does is humiliate Alayne. Yes, she is a bastard, but the courteous thing would be to ignore her birth for the moment (like the Waynwoods did) or call her LF's "natural daughter." It was both cruel and stupid. I don't think he is a cruel person overall (not enough evidence for that) but he isn't tactful or courteous (essential for a good lord) and he insults possible allies. So far he's not, IMO, future Lord of Winterfell material. If Ned or Robb were in the same situation, they might not have been happy but they would have been coldly formal or cautiously courteous. They wouldn't have humiliated and dishonored the poor girl.

Furthermore, the way he talks about his past lovers. That Alys's mother became fat as a cow giving birth to his child, so he abandoned her with disgust, and let whoever was around in Lady Waynwood's guard have her. Even if he didn't love her and wasn't attracted to her, he was callous, and has no shame is sharing how callous he was.

As far as Saffron goes, I thought the purpose of making her the daughter of a merchant, in some ways, was to compare HtH and Robb. Jeyne was descended from merchants, her mother Sybell Spicer's grandfather sold "saffron and pepper." The Lannisters wouldn't marry into the Westerlings anymore because they were too lowly with merchant blood, but Robb did to keep the honor of the girl he bedded in case she got pregnant. HtH was in the same situation, and chose to "dishonor" Saffron and let her carry a bastard while he kept his options open for a better match. He's kinda an anti-Robb in that way.

Is HtH awful? Honestly he's probably no worse than hundreds of other lords. I don't even think he's the worst. And he's practically as pure as a dove compared to Joffrey or Ramsey. I think he's ok for a short term betrothal. But would I really want him to marry Sansa, be the father of Ned's grandkids, and possibly rule in the North (if Rickon and Bran don't come back)? I'm rather apprehensive. But who knows he could develop into a real gem with time and redeem himself. :dunno:

I did a quick reread in ASOS to refresh myself on the Spicers and Robb's marriage so I could build upon my earlier thoughts a little bit.

The Spicer family legacy:

"A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps...And Jeyne seemed a sweet child, I'll grant you, though I only saw her once. But with such doubtful blood . . "

Having once married a whore, Tyrion could not entirely share his uncle's horror at the thought of wedding a girl whose great grandfather sold cloves."

I'm curious about why GRRM would invoke the same spices in Alayne I that represented Jeyne and her family in ASOS (the Spicers literally had saffron on their sigil). It seems quite intentional, but I'm not sure if the spices are meant to represent Saffron as a distinct character (the Jeyne to HtH's Robb) or to say something inherent about HtH (is he the Jeyne to Sansa's Robb?). Hopefully when WoW comes out, we'll have some more clues and some more answers. :)

Kevan also says Robb "chose the girl's honor over his own. Once he had deflowered her, he had no other course." Robb's marriage to Jeyne is essential to maintaining his moral code, which, in turn, is essential to his sense of himself as a Stark and to his downfall. The nature of honor is commented on in Alayne I too, funnily enough:

Lord Belmore laughed. “I never thought Royce would let him [HtH] come. Is he blind, or merely stupid?” “He is honorable. Sometimes it amounts to the same thing."

So part of my qualm with HtH possibly becoming Sansa's husband is his un-Starkness (if he were ever to be Lord of Winterfell). His more morally flexible view on "taking responsibility" represents the antithesis to the strict moral code of Robb and Ned (which they didn't always meet, but strived towards) and embodies some of the things about Robert that repulsed Lyanna too. However, a major part of Sansa's tutelage under LF has been learning that sometimes you must be morally flexible to survive to play the game of thrones... So I can't quite make up my mind about HtH as a character and the role he will play in the future. But after one chapter I have found him intriguing enough to write all this up, haha.

[LongRider]

Random additional comments about the chapter:

- Ser Lothor Brune, and Sansa's relationship with him, are aspects of the series I'm really not sure exactly what to make of. It boils down to the fact that his seeming character and her high regard for him just, to me, seem completely at odds with his job description as Littlefinger's hatchet man and most trusted minion (and compared to other people Sansa has encountered in ambiguous contexts and come to trust or appreciate to some degree -- like the Hound, Dontos, Tyrion, Shae in the TV show -- it's never been clear that Brune did anything in particular to earn this regard).

~~~~snip~~~~

Ser Lothor Brune stopped Marillion from raping Sansa the night of LF and Lysa's wedding. She first mistook his voice for the Hound's. Seems like he's gained her trust from that incident.

[Ragnorak]

First impressions...

The Winged Knight. While that bit of foreshadowing has been picked over it is a story out of the songs that Sansa loves so much. The Tourney is her idea and one born of song and it is Life is not a Song Littlefinger whose days are consumed bringing the song to life. And a Tourney... too much to even start on.

Freedom and control. Sansa repeatedly chooses when to leave conversations and does so by issuing the last word. Quite a contrast (and also a reaction to) her long periods of captivity.

The only controversial thing I noted was the sugar on top of a twelve foot phallic symbol.

Lyn Corbray is most unhappy. I suspect LF failed to account for Lyn being smart enough to know that having a lordship trumps having a pimp. Lords can procure their own sex objects by demanding someone bring them to him rather than being a pauper begging favors from a pimp. He's a ticking time bomb and Sansa's knowingly playing with matches next to his fuse. Part of that also speaks to years of captivity having to watch her tongue, but there's conscious intent in that scene and follow through. She's poking LF's assets for weaknesses the same way he's poked other's assets in KL for years.

LF is a busy man. Too busy for his own good. Missing the arrival of Harry the Heir is not something he would have done last book. The responsibility of actually having to run things seems like it is interfering with his ability to run things. I smell doom in the air. "She felt alive again, for the first since her father…"

Harry the Arse. Joffrey sans the cruelty streak. The whole situation is something of a Mobius strip of comic irony. Sansa wants a match that loves her for herself and not her claim. Claim fixated Harry would be enthralled with a Sansa Stark for looks, noble birth and claim but he acts like an ass and blows it. The castle is filled with people want Sansa for who she is including some likely candidates who literally want her for who she is. Harry proves to be exactly what she doesn't want but she has to seduce him anyway-- at least into wanting her, but... all of this match making tourney political drama is under the umbrella of a Sansa who can't (and seems won't) marry until Tyrion is dead.

The feast struck me as very Purple Wedding-ish. I could swear some of those dishes were the same. It also reminds me of the Purple Wedding in that 77 courses while the realm starved was a somewhat problematic message. Withholding food while feasting on this scale is going to invite problems. LF is arranging this Tourney as Lord Protector of the Vale, but his actual chief title is Lord Paramount of the Riverlands whose starvation plight was a primary focus of Jaime's POVs throughout Feast.

Littlefinger's carelessness with papers highlights Ser Shadrich the Mouse. Even if he isn't a creature of Varys it does highlight the little mice predecessors to the little birds.

There's some subtle Jon stuff too. Apparently the bastard Alayne does like to dance. LF counting grain recalls Jon and Bowen Marsh under the Wall. The winged helmets bring Mance to mind with another imposter and Stark trapped in Winterfell.

[Lummel]

* Food is being hoarded in the Vale, meaning I think the theory that the Vale will feed Westeros later will come true. We also know Jon Snow is sending to the Vale for food to the Nights Watch, and given that Sansa is "picking up the papers" after LF, perhaps she will end up sorting that problem out.

What struck me about the food was that this is a repetition (perhaps with some variation) of a key theme in Daenerys and Jon chapters. Providing food is a basic requirement of a leader, providing food is also linked to ideas around nurturing and judgement (who is going to get to eat), food issues are linked to the defeats of Jon and Daenerys - will the Sansa story line conform to that pattern or break it?

Note here that Littlefinger's policy is not to buy service, loyalty or love by giving away food but to use it as a means of amassing money! There's a lovely scene in the Charton Heston film of El Cid in which he captures Valencia (iirc) by using catapults to lob loaves of bread into a starving city - result everybody loves him. LIttlefinger is planning on taking the opposite course of action.

I liked the winged helmets - surely they will be loyal to Sansa. Littlefinger isn't paying attention to details as we see in this chapter and Sweetrobin might provoke pity but can hardly inspire loyalty.

I love GRRM's solution to the tapestry mystery, so much speculation brought to nout :crying: :laugh:

I imagine this chapter will be revised - the two uses of "fled" really stood out to me

[Colonel Green]

Ser Lothor Brune stopped Marillion from raping Sansa the night of LF and Lysa's wedding. She first mistook his voice for the Hound's. Seems like he's gained her trust from that incident.

Well, yeah, but he's paid to do that.

I guess, more to the point, it's less "why does Sansa trust this guy" so much as "do we think this is well-placed?" He seems friendly enough, but he's a cold-blooded killer for hire, and has spent a long time in the hire of Littlefinger. I'm not sure I'd be so readily contemplating marrying him off to my friends.

[Milady of York]

I was particularly struck by this passage when I read the chapter for the first time. Littlefinger’s papers are blown by the wind and Sansa picks them up. Could it foreshadow the failure of Littlefinger’s plans and Sansa pursuing them for her own benefit? It’s interesting that one of these papers concerns the tourney’s participants. A sign that something unexpected might come from this direction?

Interesting to ponder, Mahaut. Littlefinger doesn't strike me as the sort of man that'd leave damning written evidence available for any passersby, not even in his solar, and the fact that of all those scattered papers Alayne picked up she focused her attention on the one that had the names of the tourney participants tells as much: that those weren't important papers, just the everyday stuff you leave on the desk. So, I am not expecting her to stumble upon one document with a shocking revelation exactly; but, considering the amount of information Sansa already has on him and what he is able to hear now thanks to her newfound gregariousness and place in the castle, she doesn't need to find Classified Stuff type of papers anymore. All she'd need would be a simple letter, for example, a bit of seemingly innocuous documentation that Littlefinger thought harmless and left here or there, that would suffice for her to put two and two together regarding something of importance to her in particular. Littlefinger simply isn't counting on that Alayne's freedom of movement can backfire, for the same reason Sansa's freedom of the castle in King's Landing backfired for the Lannisters and allowed her to be aware of certain things they'd rather not have her know, make allies and finally escape. Nothing is really stopping Sansa from repeating the story with him at the receiving end.

[Mahaut]

Interesting to ponder, Mahaut. Littlefinger doesn't strike me as the sort of man that'd leave damning written evidence available for any passersby, not even in his solar, and the fact that of all those scattered papers Alayne picked up she focused her attention on the one that had the names of the tourney participants tells as much: that those weren't important papers, just the everyday stuff you leave on the desk. So, I am not expecting her to stumble upon one document with a shocking revelation exactly; but, considering the amount of information Sansa already has on him and what he is able to hear now thanks to her newfound gregariousness and place in the castle, she doesn't need to find Classified Stuff type of papers anymore. All she'd need would be a simple letter, for example, a bit of seemingly innocuous documentation that Littlefinger thought harmless and left here or there, that would suffice for her to put two and two together regarding something of importance to her in particular. Littlefinger simply isn't counting on that Alayne's freedom of movement can backfire, for the same reason Sansa's freedom of the castle in King's Landing backfired for the Lannisters and allowed her to be aware of certain things they'd rather not have her know, make allies and finally escape. Nothing is really stopping Sansa from repeating the story with him at the receiving end.

Oh, I didn't mean these papers were his actual plans. I apologise if I was not clear. I thought it was an image to illustrate that all his efforts will be in vain, in the end. I definitely agree with what you wrote.

[Milady of York]

Lyn Corbray stands out as one of the most interesting characters in this chapter. We've seen him before in AGOT as Lysa's suitor (of all things!) in AFFC as the "frenemy" of LF but here we see that LF has probably misjudged how pissed off Lyn would get now when he's been bumped down the ladder of inheritance. Lyn's allegiance also seems to be for sale, even before Sansa's commentary of a "bag of gold" and his money problems, since Ser Lyn fought first against king Robert and then against the Targaryens in Robert's rebellion. It makes me wonder if Sansa could use ser Lyn, since he is a dangerous man, but a good fighter. I still hope she'll bestow her favour on him since that would be ROFL-cakes and Harry would never beat Ser Lyn. :lol: Which would humiliate him something rotten. It's also likely that Lyn will be skilled enough to end up among the Winged Knights, should he wish. And Sweetrobin is afraid of Lyn Corbray, for probably good reason, too.

With regards to Harry, another interesting character. The "Pride and Prejudice" parallels were not lost on me, but I don't think Harry is going to turn into Darcy just like that. If we judge men by WWNSD, i.e. What Would Ned Stark Do? then Harry fails, since he is first nedlessly rude (which Ned would never be), then he insults his first mistress ("fat cow") and praises the second one's beauty in front of his betrothed. Overall, dear Harry comes across as a priviliged boy who doesn't understand the consequences of his actions. He may look the part, but he certainly doesn't have the quality or smarts or skills of people like Ned, Tywin, Tyrion or even Jaime. Hell, Robb came across as a more mature person. Jon certainly does. In Cat's words: these are the knights of summer and Harry is definitely a knight of summer.

Interesting to note too was that Littlefinger et al in the basement were quite dismissive of Harry's skills as a knight. Bronze Yohn allowed him to go even though the general consensus is that Harry is kinda shite at fighting and is a "glorifed squire".

In any case, I think Sansa will bestow her favour either on Lothor Brune or Lyn Corbray. Which could also be a good way of cementing alliances with any of these men. Lyn is proud and prickly and Lothor, well, he's probably never had a lady's favour to carry so he might be ever so pleased just to get the chance of some extra glory.

If even someone oblivious to Regency novels like me could detect the Pride and Prejudice air of this chapter, then it must read like all over the place for those who do like them.

I can see why you'd pick up Lyn Corbray to wear her favour, he's the warrior of the highest calibre amongst them all in this tourney, which may be lavish and elegant in terms of pageantry and gifts/prizes, as befits someone skilled in these matters as Alayne (with LF's big purse), but in terms of considering purely martial skills, I am tempted to bring in the Hound's crushing assessment of the participants at Joff's nameday tourney. These aren't gnats, of course, but this tourney doesn't look like one that can brag top notch contenders, which makes Harry's place in the Winged Knights guard all the more probable unless he faces a far superior opponent that doesn't care to let him win. Also, from what we knew on how Harry was knighted, it seems to me that the people in-universe from LF to the lords to Lothor do have a good reason for being dismissive of his skills, since he won his knighthood at a melée arranged precisely for this matter, in which it's not so unlikely that he could've won either because the others weren't good yet (they were squires after all) or was given advantages by virtue of it being Royce who organised it for him in special.

I'm curious about why GRRM would invoke the same spices in Alayne I that represented Jeyne and her family in ASOS (the Spicers literally had saffron on their sigil). It seems quite intentional, but I'm not sure if the spices are meant to represent Saffron as a distinct character (the Jeyne to HtH's Robb) or to say something inherent about HtH (is he the Jeyne to Sansa's Robb?). Hopefully when WoW comes out, we'll have some more clues and some more answers. :)

Kevan also says Robb "chose the girl's honor over his own. Once he had deflowered her, he had no other course." Robb's marriage to Jeyne is essential to maintaining his moral code, which, in turn, is essential to his sense of himself as a Stark and to his downfall. The nature of honor is commented on in Alayne I too, funnily enough:

So part of my qualm with HtH possibly becoming Sansa's husband is his un-Starkness (if he were ever to be Lord of Winterfell). His more morally flexible view on "taking responsibility" represents the antithesis to the strict moral code of Robb and Ned (which they didn't always meet, but strived towards) and embodies some of the things about Robert that repulsed Lyanna too. However, a major part of Sansa's tutelage under LF has been learning that sometimes you must be morally flexible to survive to play the game of thrones... So I can't quite make up my mind about HtH as a character and the role he will play in the future. But after one chapter I have found him intriguing enough to write all this up, haha.

Welcome to the thread, Allofthehours! Glad to see you here on invitation by Brash.

Very intriguing thoughts on the parallels between Robb/Harry and their merchant-descended girls, and an original catch too. On your point on why GRRM would use the same spices, the reason would be that those spices are in themselves rare goods and seemingly not produced in Westeros, at least the two examples of spice merchants we have are Essosi or trading with Essos, which reflects real life as these spices weren't produced in medieval Europe but imported from faraway overseas lands by merchants. Also, like in the real Middle Ages, these spice merchants are members of a guild, and as part of their organisation, they trade on the same goods that they bring from the same providers: spice merchants will import saffron, cloves, cinnamon, pepper, etc.; jewel merchants will import ivory, gems, gold; cloth merchants will import purple, silk, samite, etc. It's always the same stuff, dictated by their equivalent of modern trade unions, and variety was less.

Besides that, from a literary standpoint, this might be another case of use of parallels, a literary technique we've always known GRRM loves. The Westerlings case is closer to how real life merchants could become nobility in time through marrying poor aristocrats or buying titles/doing nobles a favour (the Free Cities merchants are another such example), for their rise in rank is linked to the Lannisters from start to more recent times, whereas the Saffron girl's family seem to be still in the merely "merchant prince" stage so far as they don't seem to have intermarried with nobility, but possibly more like due to the nobles than lack of such a wish, if Harry is to be taken as a clue. Regardless of this difference, I do lean towards agreement on that Robb chose honour over blood where Harry is so far choosing blood over honour.

[Lyanna Stark]

I can see why you'd pick up Lyn Corbray to wear her favour, he's the warrior of the highest calibre amongst them all in this tourney, which may be lavish and elegant in terms of pageantry and gifts/prizes, as befits someone skilled in these matters as Alayne (with LF's big purse), but in terms of considering purely martial skills, I am tempted to bring in the Hound's crushing assessment of the participants at Joff's nameday tourney. These aren't gnats, of course, but this tourney doesn't look like one that can brag top notch contenders, which makes Harry's place in the Winged Knights guard all the more probable unless he faces a far superior opponent that doesn't care to let him win.

Lyn strikes me as an interesting candidate for the reason you mentioned (he is probably the most skilled fighter), but also because he doesn't care about causing insult to Harry and Anya Waynwood or Bronze Yohn Royce by beating Harry. Further, he is strongly motivated by money and even if Sansa is not a highborn lady anymore, carrying her favour would be a point of pride, and Lyn is a proud man. Sansa also thinks that he is a dangerous man, Lyn, and that she doesn't know if he is Littlefinger's any more. Perhaps there is room there for her to at least temporarily sway his loyalties. I suppose it depends on what Corbray thinks of Harry as well, but if he is not well disposed against Harry he might relish the chance to one up him.

The other candidate to carry her favour that we've seen so far seems to be Lothor Brune, and he's probably a more skilled fighter than Harry in any case.

Also, from what we knew on how Harry was knighted, it seems to me that the people in-universe from LF to the lords to Lothor do have a good reason for being dismissive of his skills, since he won his knighthood at a melée arranged precisely for this matter, in which it's not so unlikely that he could've won either because the others weren't good yet (they were squires after all) or was given advantages by virtue of it being Royce who organised it for him in special.

Indeed! It amuses me that Harry looks the part, but cannot walk the walk, as it were. If we are taking Ned's words to heart with the "brave, gentle and strong" Harry also doesn't strike me as a good fit.