(TWOW Spoilers) From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XXII

[Ragnorak]

Interesting to ponder, Mahaut. Littlefinger doesn't strike me as the sort of man that'd leave damning written evidence available for any passersby, not even in his solar, and the fact that of all those scattered papers Alayne picked up she focused her attention on the one that had the names of the tourney participants tells as much: that those weren't important papers, just the everyday stuff you leave on the desk. So, I am not expecting her to stumble upon one document with a shocking revelation exactly; but, considering the amount of information Sansa already has on him and what he is able to hear now thanks to her newfound gregariousness and place in the castle, she doesn't need to find Classified Stuff type of papers anymore. All she'd need would be a simple letter, for example, a bit of seemingly innocuous documentation that Littlefinger thought harmless and left here or there, that would suffice for her to put two and two together regarding something of importance to her in particular. Littlefinger simply isn't counting on that Alayne's freedom of movement can backfire, for the same reason Sansa's freedom of the castle in King's Landing backfired for the Lannisters and allowed her to be aware of certain things they'd rather not have her know, make allies and finally escape. Nothing is really stopping Sansa from repeating the story with him at the receiving end.

Yes. Most intel gathering is pooling together multiple innocuous pieces of information. A ledger of expenses is extremely revealing if the proper context is known. Sansa can also find things like noble X was offered a larger payment than noble Y if what we're talking about is Sansa undermining Littlefinger. His first advice to Ned was "trust no one" and here he finds himself in the peculiar position of trusting Sansa. Sweetrobin is his primary asset (in fact the foundational asset upon which everything else rests) until Harry the Heir can be properly aligned. Sansa essentially has Sweetrobin as putty in her hands and LF's whole plan is to make Harry putty in Sansa's hands. It doesn't even have to be something that benefits Sansa directly from knowing it. It can be a thing of value to any piece on the Vale chessboard such that revealing it can realign that piece's allegiance or ruin the timing of a plan.

While I think the Mad Mouse is here looking for Sansa and his "bag of dragons" line references the reward for finding Sansa, he is also a very clear Varys reference with the little mice who used to find and transcribe papers before Varys renamed them little birds. He even mocks the notion of mice with wings which further emphasizes that Varys angle. So I think something will come of Litlefinger and papers, but probably not anything like "I am secretly holding Sansa Stark in the Vale." Besides, GRRM has been subtle with just about everything in the series. It would be out of character and style to have a blunt reveal. I would expect something more subtle than Doran's comment about Arianne's betrothed and molten gold and less subtle than Euron paying the Faceless Men with a dragon egg.

Here's LF's own words:

“Oswell... my lord, Oswell rowed me from King’s Landing the night that I escaped. He must know who I am.”

“If he’s half as clever as a sheep pellet, you would think so. Ser Lothor knows as well. But Oswell has been in my service a long time, and Brune is close-mouthed by nature. Kettleblack watches Brune for me, and Brune watches Kettleblack. Trust no one, I once told Eddard Stark, but he would not listen.

Who does LF have watching Sansa?

Also it is probably worth reminding that Brune and Oswell both know Alayne is Sansa (I forgot Brune knew.)

I finally had an opportunity to reread the chapter, which I enjoyed much more on the second read (since I actually savored it), but still think it needs a lot of polishing. First, I agree with Lady Gwyn that Myranda suspects Sansa is not Littlefinger's daughter. Asking Sansa how little Littlefinger's finger is is extraordinarily crass, and even someone who loves to indulge in "pillow talk" as Myranda wouldn't ask such a question of someone's actual offspring. She's practically insinuating that they're lovers. And considering she's actually jealous of Sansa's possible betrothal to HtH (that threw me for a loop), I wouldn't be surprised if this causes friction in their friendship.

And then there's the Mad Mouse. When he made the "bag of dragons" comment, I had the mental image that he was looking at Sansa as if she were a bag of money straight out of a cartoon. Coming on the heels of Sansa's provoking Lyn Corbray, who is "always short of coin," I can't help but expect a collaboration between the two, with the Mad Mouse meeting a similar end to Dontos.

Despite the looming trouble, I am happy that Sansa actually has agency and is figuratively writing her own Winged Knights story, which I believe bodes well for her. I'm also relieved that she has retained her identity as a Stark, thinking fondly of her family and Winterfell, as well as always referring to Littlefinger as Petyr in her thoughts rather than "father" as she does outwardly.

Who do we suspect might know Sansa's true identity? The Mad Mouse and other two hedge knights, Bronze Yohn, Lady Waynwood, Myranda Royce? Anyone else?

On the trip down the Mountain with the Jon Snow outburst I was very suspicious of Myranda piecing things together. I didn't get anything here that pushed that one way or the other. I can see the potential for friction, but I'm not sure when or how it might materialize. What if Myranda seduces Harry the Heir? Would Sansa care? Would she be relieved? I can see Myranda having tried to catch LF's attention resorting to tactics most likely to have Alayne voice Myranda's desires. LF is an odd father just based on their contrived backstory. He and Alyane aren't supposed to have ever met until a couple weeks before she arrived at the Eyrie.

I'm not sure about the Mad Mouse and Lyn cooperating over a bag of dragons. Lyn wants a lordship over gold and knowledge that Alayne is Sansa smells more like a lordship for Lyn than gold. Of course that doesn't rule out saying "yes" to the Mouse and giving him the Dontos treatment as he chooses his path to lordship-- which may but need not run through Kings Landing. If it doesn't isn't that to Sansa's advantage? Lots of ways for something like that to play out.

LF's line about Sansa and the lighting was curious:

Cat (CoK)

“Sansa was a lady at three, always so courteous and eager to please. She loved nothing so well as tales of knightly valor. Men would say she had my look, but she will grow into a woman far more beautiful than I ever was, you can see that. I often sent away her maid so I could brush her hair myself. She had auburn hair, lighter than mine, and so thick and soft… the red in it would catch the light of the torches and shine like copper.

“Oh, I think you do,” said Littlefinger, with one of those smiles that did not reach his eyes. “You will be the most beautiful woman in the hall tonight, as lovely as your lady mother at your age. I cannot seat you on the dais, but you’ll have a place of honor above the salt and underneath a wall sconce. The fire will be shining in your hair, so everyone will see how fair of face you are. Keep a good long spoon on hand to beat the squires off, sweetling. You will not want green boys underfoot when the knights come round to beg you for your favor.”

Is it me or is LF giving Sansa advice typically falling under the domain of mothers? Sure part of it is the skeevy perv thing, but the interaction reminds me of Cersei's mother's tears are not a woman's only weapon lesson.

The guest situation is odd. The Gates of the Moon are supposed to be the Arryn winter seat. Now Lord Arryn is a homeless guest, a lord with no seat. It is somewhat like Stannis at the Wall. It is similar for Littlefinger too. His seat is a sheep dung tower or Harrenhal. Not sure how yet, but I suspect this will matter. In general it strikes me that LF is allowing too much power to fall to Nestor Royce without any insurance policy. "Thanks for the tapestries, I'll hang one outside your dungeon cell."

Seizing ships in Gulltown. How would that play out in Braavos? Or the other Free Cities where Varys and Illyrio hold influence?

[Colonel Green]

Who do we suspect might know Sansa's true identity? The Mad Mouse and other two hedge knights, Bronze Yohn, Lady Waynwood, Myranda Royce? Anyone else?

I would guess both Royces and the Mad Mouse, but not the others.

[DogLover]

I'm not sure about the Mad Mouse and Lyn cooperating over a bag of dragons. Lyn wants a lordship over gold and knowledge that Alayne is Sansa smells more like a lordship for Lyn than gold. Of course that doesn't rule out saying "yes" to the Mouse and giving him the Dontos treatment as he chooses his path to lordship-- which may but need not run through Kings Landing. If it doesn't isn't that to Sansa's advantage? Lots of ways for something like that to play out.

This is what I'm pondering: I don't think Corbray will collaborate with the Mad Mouse just for a bag of gold (he already gets that from LF and then some), but he'll use the Mad Mouse to earn that lordship from Tommen (via Cersie if he doesn't realize she's been arrested and placed on trial). This only jumped to my mind based on how the chapter was written: Sansa observes that Lyn is always short of coin, he's incredibly dangerous, very angry that he was deprived of a lordship, and makes short order of his opponent. And then enters the Mad Mouse. Will the Mad Mouse approach Corbray for assistance and will Corbray exploit it? I don't think this [short-term] alliance is too far-fetched at the moment. But this requires further exploration.

[LongRider]

Littlefinger has said that 'If you know what a man wants you can control him.' He told Sansa that Lyn wants gold and young boys. Now we see that Lyn wants a lordship and lands. This begs the question; does LF not know Lyn as well as he thinks he does? Perhaps LF has misjudged Lyn's desire for a lordship and has stumbled here. If so, the master underestimating his servant could get very interesting.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

This is what I'm pondering: I don't think Corbray will collaborate with the Mad Mouse just for a bag of gold (he already gets that from LF and then some), but he'll use the Mad Mouse to earn that lordship from Tommen (via Cersie if he doesn't realize she's been arrested and placed on trial). This only jumped to my mind based on how the chapter was written: Sansa observes that Lyn is always short of coin, he's incredibly dangerous, very angry that he was deprived of a lordship, and makes short order of his opponent. And then enters the Mad Mouse. Will the Mad Mouse approach Corbray for assistance and will Corbray exploit it? I don't think this [short-term] alliance is too far-fetched at the moment. But this requires further exploration.

I had a similar feeling. It can't be coincidental that both Lyn Corbray and Ser Shadrich are noted to be motivated by a bag of gold, which Alayne represents. As you say, further exploration is needed-- but I definitely have my eyes on this duo.

Littlefinger has said that 'If you know what a man wants you can control him.' He told Sansa that Lyn wants gold and young boys. Now we see that Lyn wants a lordship and lands. This begs the question; does LF not know Lyn as well as he thinks he does? Perhaps LF has misjudged Lyn's desire for a lordship and has stumbled here. If so, the master underestimating his servant could get very interesting.

I get the distinct impression that moving into TWoW we'll see more of LF's missteps. His intricate plans are based upon information and thus are only as good as his sources. It's clear he doesn't know about Bran & Rickon, or Robb's will for instance, and I've long wondered what that gap in intelligence will do to his plans. He's admitted that Cersei's downfall is moving at a pace he didn't account for, and has obviously been forced to adjust his planning to account for that. I can't help but wonder just how often someone with so many plates in the air can adjust their footing before he loses control of a couple. :devil:

[butterbumps!]

Oh! I'm thrilled this thread was made-- I didn't realize this was here until I posted in the general one, lol.

I haven't done a close reading of the chapter yet, but the most exciting part for me so far is the reference to, and Sansa's awareness of, the food stores. I've been a longtime advocate for a Queen Bread development for Sansa, and as Lyanna mentioned, how this would intersect with Jon and North. It also seems to me that Sansa's aware that SR is of more use to her alive and loving her than dead as LF wants, so this excited me too.

As for Harry, he's not the only person who holds a prejudice against bastardy, no, but being so rude directly to someone's face doesn't speak highly of him on the question of personal manners and character, especially when it was so unnecessary.

So, I've been wondering about this. Is Harry actually impulsive and crude, or is he being stupid as a fox here? What's the chance that he actually does know who Alyane is, and his apparent inability to wear a poker face about his alleged disgust for marrying a bastard is just a mask he's wearing? It would seem a little strange for the (next in line) heir of the Vale to marry a low-noble's bastard daughter, and even stranger for the heir in question to do so without expressing some serious reservations about social status, right? Is the lady doth protesting too much? I should add that I'm curious about this possibility because Lady Waynwood seemed pretty savvy, not very trusting of LF, and fairly close to the Royces. Is Harry's apparent disgruntledness and idiocy in expressing it really intended to make LF underestimate him, or hide the fact that he knows who Sansa is and doesn't want to appear to eager, or some other more subtle manipulation like this?

[brashcandy]

So, I've been wondering about this. Is Harry actually impulsive and crude, or is he being stupid as a fox here? What's the chance that he actually does know who Alyane is, and his apparent inability to wear a poker face about his alleged disgust for marrying a bastard is just a mask he's wearing? It would seem a little strange for the (next in line) heir of the Vale to marry a low-noble's bastard daughter, and even stranger for the heir in question to do so without expressing some serious reservations about social status, right? Is the lady doth protesting too much? I should add that I'm curious about this possibility because Lady Waynwood seemed pretty savvy, not very trusting of LF, and fairly close to the Royces. Is Harry's apparent disgruntledness and idiocy in expressing it really intended to make LF underestimate him, or hide the fact that he knows who Sansa is and doesn't want to appear to eager, or some other more subtle manipulation like this?

Glad you made it, bumps :) This is a very interesting possibility. Bronze Yohn's question to Sansa back at the Eyrie - "Do I know you, girl?" - conveniently slots right into her meeting with Harry:

Harry was staring at her. He knows who I am, she realised, and he does seem pleased to see me.

If indeed Bronze Yohn clued Harry into the fact that LF is really hiding Sansa Stark and passing her off as his bastard daughter, then he's sent Harry there as his double agent, and not out of the foolish honour that LF believes. It also fits right into the prevailing theme of this chapter of appearance vs. reality and the plots within plots framework.

[Milady of York]

Welcome to the PtP, Sarella and Florina! Thank you so much for dropping by and sharing your thoughts; it's always nice to know what other readers' reaction has been and a pleasure to see that you both enjoyed the chapter.

Whoa. So this is where you lot ran off to. Hej there!

About Myranda, yeah i got that impression. Myranda is just plain thirsty so its not too much for her to be so crass. Sansa seems to sorta brush it off as if it were usual Randa behavior. But yeah, i think she does suspect something funky going on with Sansa and Littlefinger. (i laughed really hard at that joke though)

Indeed, from that conversation by the yard with Randa, the joking comment on the "little finger" was so noteworthy, and besides telling the reader that young Lady Royce is still fishing out for clues after a relatively long while, it reveals that Myranda can also have slips in her endeavour to cause Alayne to trip and drop more telling clues, because if LF's advice not to trust her was some good first warning, now Randa herself is reinforcing that and becoming less subtle in the process, which in turn is making Alayne either ignore her or be more on guard round her because with this second insistence, she is practically shouting to Alayne's face that she suspects something. Also, this indicates that Alayne was tight-lipped during the "pillow tax" scene that was to follow her last AFFC chapter, which we can assume happened off-page already, and that didn't tell much that Myranda found of use. Else, she'd be subtler. Either Randa is becoming careless or she's trying to let Alayne know that she is aware so she can advance further in her confidence to the benefit of the Royce cause, whichever it may be.

While I think the Mad Mouse is here looking for Sansa and his "bag of dragons" line references the reward for finding Sansa, he is also a very clear Varys reference with the little mice who used to find and transcribe papers before Varys renamed them little birds. He even mocks the notion of mice with wings which further emphasizes that Varys angle. So I think something will come of Litlefinger and papers, but probably not anything like "I am secretly holding Sansa Stark in the Vale." Besides, GRRM has been subtle with just about everything in the series. It would be out of character and style to have a blunt reveal. I would expect something more subtle than Doran's comment about Arianne's betrothed and molten gold and less subtle than Euron paying the Faceless Men with a dragon egg.

Here's LF's own words:

“Oswell... my lord, Oswell rowed me from King’s Landing the night that I escaped. He must know who I am.”
“If he’s half as clever as a sheep pellet, you would think so. Ser Lothor knows as well. But Oswell has been in my service a long time, and Brune is close-mouthed by nature. Kettleblack watches Brune for me, and Brune watches Kettleblack. Trust no one, I once told Eddard Stark, but he would not listen.

Who does LF have watching Sansa?

Also it is probably worth reminding that Brune and Oswell both know Alayne is Sansa (I forgot Brune knew.)

Who do we suspect might know Sansa's true identity? The Mad Mouse and other two hedge knights, Bronze Yohn, Lady Waynwood, Myranda Royce? Anyone else?

For a long time, even before this chapter was released, I've been mulling over a bit of textual information that to me is a hint that Varys might either already know or be on his way to piecing all bits of information together to locate Alayne, or at the very least link Littlefinger to the poisoning plot. It's this passage from ASOS:

“I have found no trace of Lady Sansa in King’s Landing, sad to say. Nor of Ser Dontos Hollard, who by rights should have turned up somewhere drunk by now. They were seen together on the serpentine steps the night she vanished. After that, nothing. There was much confusion that night. My little birds are silent."

There is my clue: one of Varys' little birds saw Sansa escaping through the serpentine steps with Dontos. And now in possession of that information, Varys would only have to discover who was behind Dontos. He'd only need to find out who hired Dontos, as he's intelligent enough to know the drunkard wouldn't be acting on his own, and if LF used Brune to hire the fool, then Varys already knows who's behind. If it was another go-between, then he has to find that link between Dontos and the mastermind.

And Varys hasn't exactly been secretive about this piece of information. On the contrary, he's shared it with two people who have an interest in both Sansa and Littlefinger. Can you guess to whom he's speaking in the quote above? To Tyrion son of Tywin of the clan Lannister, husband of the escapee and with a giant axe to grind where Littlefinger is concerned, and a man smart enough to put two and two together eventually too, although at present he's too caught up with his own dramas in exile. And the second one he told is Jaime, who wants to find Sansa and therefore told the same to Brienne. The Tarth maid isn't so good at sleuthing as the Mad Mouse, who also knew Sansa fled with Dontos as he disclosed to Brienne. So on spotting the Mad Mouse in Alayne's last AFFC chapter, I had to wonder if it's possible that Varys gave Shadrich some other of his damnably cryptic hints that led him to the Vale.

LF's line about Sansa and the lighting was curious:

Cat (CoK)

“Sansa was a lady at three, always so courteous and eager to please. She loved nothing so well as tales of knightly valor. Men would say she had my look, but she will grow into a woman far more beautiful than I ever was, you can see that. I often sent away her maid so I could brush her hair myself. She had auburn hair, lighter than mine, and so thick and soft… the red in it would catch the light of the torches and shine like copper.

“Oh, I think you do,” said Littlefinger, with one of those smiles that did not reach his eyes. “You will be the most beautiful woman in the hall tonight, as lovely as your lady mother at your age. I cannot seat you on the dais, but you’ll have a place of honor above the salt and underneath a wall sconce. The fire will be shining in your hair, so everyone will see how fair of face you are. Keep a good long spoon on hand to beat the squires off, sweetling. You will not want green boys underfoot when the knights come round to beg you for your favor.”

Is it me or is LF giving Sansa advice typically falling under the domain of mothers? Sure part of it is the skeevy perv thing, but the interaction reminds me of Cersei's mother's tears are not a woman's only weapon lesson.

Great that you brought this up! I had just been rereading this passage and recalling Catelyn's words too. It's indeed advice on how to seduce a man, but there's something in the wording that made me think of that passage in AFFC where it's mentioned that Sansa will be needing more hair dye. Has she gotten it already? Her current hair colour isn't mentioned, but since Sansa doesn't express any concern over that, we can assume she has it dyed brown still.

However, Littlefinger is talking of her hair as if it were still auburn, using the same words as Catelyn did, and that is curious. Brown hair doesn't shine in the torchlight the way he's describing it; reddish and blond hair do, because the lightness of colour reflects the light of torches and fireplaces. So what are we to make of this? My suppositions are that: one, Littlefinger is seeing Catelyn II in his mind's eye as he speaks to Alayne and overlooking the brown hair, i.e. he's daydreaming, which his comment on "as your lady mother" and his impulsive kisses on the cheeks would support; two, he's repeating what he told her about Sansa eventually revealing herself with a Stark cloak and her long auburn hair flowing down her back, to encourage her further and remind her subtly through flattery what their plan is concerning Harry and Winterfell. And three, a wilder guess, that Sansa's hair might be lighter in colour now, as the hair dye is wearing off and the natural tone is starting to come back a bit more. Anyone that's dyed their hair will know that the dye wears off slowly with each hair wash and the original tone changes; so something similar might be happening here, that Alayne's hair, though still brown, is a lighter brown which could be starting to show reddish hues in certain lights, like sunlight and firelight, which tend to naturally enhance and amplify colours.

And one more thought I had: Littlefinger may be being more careful with his kisses and groping, but is not being more careful with his words, it seems, not when talking of Alayne's mother. That could be another clue people will pick up. "Your mother." Catelyn was at the Gates, she met people there, and some people who've seen Alayne have thought of Catelyn instantly (like Bronze Yohn), and with his repetition of "your mother," Littlefinger might inadvertently be reinforcing the suspicions of whoever happens to overhear this seemingly innocuous complimentary talk. If Myranda or Lord Nestor or Mya or someone who knew Lady Catelyn heard "like your mother," that has to light up a bulb in their head, if they're perceptive.

[Direwolf Resilience]

Great job, everyone, keep going! :bowdown:

I'm actually a bit skeptical about LF being careless with details and secrets and emotions. Although it is pleasantly alarming (I'd love to see LF fall spectacularly, like many others), I think it's a bit... I dunno, unsubtle of GRRM to hit us on the head with this quite so early on in the story? Also, I had this idea that we don't really know what happened during the 'pillow tax' scene. Maybe there's something else going on between Alayne and Myranda that allows Alayne to be what she was like around her. Perhaps she's guessed something, I don't think she'd be that gregarious without an idea about what she's doing, because self-preservation is an issue, and last we saw Sansa/Alayne in AFFC, she was concerned with it deeply.

Or maybe I've read this hopelessly wrong, and I'm having wrong conclusions. In that case, don't mind me, people.

[Colonel Green]

There is my clue: one of Varys' little birds saw Sansa escaping through the serpentine steps with Dontos. And now in possession of that information, Varys would only have to discover who was behind Dontos. He'd only need to find out who hired Dontos, as he's intelligent enough to know the drunkard wouldn't be acting on his own, and if LF used Brune to hire the fool, then Varys already knows who's behind. If it was another go-between, then he has to find that link between Dontos and the mastermind.

But that would depend on him being able to learn who hired Dontos, and if he didn't see that happening originally, I'm not sure how he'd figure it out. Littlefinger knows how to evade Varys' informers; hence, why the Godswood was picked as a meeting place.

[Milady of York]

But that would depend on him being able to learn who hired Dontos, and if he didn't see that happening originally, I'm not sure how he'd figure it out. Littlefinger knows how to evade Varys' informers; hence, why the Godswood was picked as a meeting place.

Exactly, hence I'm stressing that Varys would need to find the link between Dontos and his paymaster. And whilst I do agree that Littlefinger does know how to evade his informers, I am not so confident that he has been that successful in dodging them. After all, Varys knows he was behind Lord Eddard's death, he knew about Ser Hugh of the Vale, etc., and look now at the quote's content: for all of Baelish's careful planning to abduct Sansa, one "little bird" still saw Dontos and her. If not for that, nobody would've had the slightest idea of where Sansa was and who helped her. Littlefinger does know Varys has spies by the dozen, but does he know full well what the little mice are? He points out the "obvious" spies, the ones that are in the open and he can see, but what about those he cannot see? I don't consider this either unlikely nor impossible that Varys might know or find out because he's already proven he can find out seemingly well-hidden information about his rival.

[brashcandy]

However, Littlefinger is talking of her hair as if it were still auburn, using the same words as Catelyn did, and that is curious. Brown hair doesn't shine in the torchlight the way he's describing it; reddish and blond hair do, because the lightness of colour reflects the light of torches and fireplaces. So what are we to make of this? My suppositions are that: one, Littlefinger is seeing Catelyn II in his mind's eye as he speaks to Alayne and overlooking the brown hair, i.e. he's daydreaming, which his comment on "as your lady mother" and his impulsive kisses on the cheeks would support; two, he's repeating what he told her about Sansa eventually revealing herself with a Stark cloak and her long auburn hair flowing down her back, to encourage her further and remind her subtly through flattery what their plan is concerning Harry and Winterfell. And three, a wilder guess, that Sansa's hair might be lighter in colour now, as the hair dye is wearing off and the natural tone is starting to come back a bit more. Anyone that's dyed their hair will know that the dye wears off slowly with each hair wash and the original tone changes; so something similar might be happening here, that Alayne's hair, though still brown, is a lighter brown which could be starting to show reddish hues in certain lights, like sunlight and firelight, which tend to naturally enhance and amplify colours.

Great post, Milady; I'm placing my bets on one and three, as highlighted. Your first supposition could support my earlier speculation of Littlefinger unconsciously repeating the circumstances that led to him being injured and humiliated by Brandon Stark and eventually expelled from Riverrun. On the second, the fact that Sansa's hair is getting lighter means that she's even more recognizable as Cat's daughter, and LF has basically broadcast this to everyone gathered at the feast by seating Sansa in such a manner that her auburn hair is highlighted. The question then becomes one of the degree of LF's deliberation in all this. He has promised Sansa that she would win the Vale swords on her wedding day to Harry, but what if he's no longer working towards that, but actively inviting early speculation about Sansa's appearance? Where else would be a suitable place to reveal the heir to Winterfell - as he imagines - with a lot of swords already gathered to actively vie for a formal appointment to serve honourably? Could LF be planning to proclaim reveal Alayne as Sansa at the tourney, with her own ready made "Queensguard" of sorts in place in the Winged knights?

Leaving that aside for the moment, we can be sure of one crown that will be bestowed on Sansa at this tourney if it reaches a normal conclusion: Queen of Love and Beauty. As the timeline seems to bear out, around the same time that Cersei's humiliation is playing out in KL, Sansa will be achieving recognition as the most desired and beautiful woman in the land. This leads directly to another "queenly" possibility in her arc: that of the "younger queen" who takes everything Cersei holds dear. There's also her role as "Queen bread" as butterbumps calls it, an active service that fits with what we know of Sansa's values and compassionate impulse to help others.

Returning to the possibility of LF deliberately plotting or being unaware of plots developing around him, the latter of which I think we have more suggestive hints of, I wonder about the gifts of those drapes to Nestor Royce, and whether it was such a clever move on his part. The drapes, after all, tie Littlefinger to the failing regime in KL, sent to him especially by Queen Cersei. If Sansa's identity is already known or soon to be known by the key players in the Vale, her ascension seems guaranteed, whilst LF's control is looking all the more tenuous. She then could be the one to assume effective control of the Vale army to further her interests.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

~snipped some~

And one more thought I had: Littlefinger may be being more careful with his kisses and groping, but is not being more careful with his words, it seems, not when talking of Alayne's mother. That could be another clue people will pick up. "Your mother." Catelyn was at the Gates, she met people there, and some people who've seen Alayne have thought of Catelyn instantly (like Bronze Yohn), and with his repetition of "your mother," Littlefinger might inadvertently be reinforcing the suspicions of whoever happens to overhear this seemingly innocuous complimentary talk. If Myranda or Lord Nestor or Mya or someone who knew Lady Catelyn heard "like your mother," that has to light up a bulb in their head, if they're perceptive.

To amplify your point, in the quote Littlefinger says "your lady mother". How likely is is that Littlefinger's paramour of Gulltown who presented him with a bastard daughter was a lady?

[Milady of York]

To amplify your point, in the quote Littlefinger says "your lady mother". How likely is is that Littlefinger's paramour of Gulltown who presented him with a bastard daughter was a lady?

Interesting. But bear in mind that "my lord" and "my lady" are also formulas of courtesy used in more formal speech and not just nobiliary titles. In real life, it was also customary to refer to respectable people using those formulas, and in-universe it has been applied to both non-nobles and nobles without a title. See the examples of Tyrion, who out of courtesy as Tywin's heir is called "Lord Tyrion," or also see the case of the Hound, who doesn't have a title but as a noble by birth can be addressed as "my lord." And then there's people like Hallyne and Varys, and so on. Look at Alayne herself: she's a bastard, not a noble, and yet, she's called Lady Alayne out of courtesy because her supposed father is a lord and acknowledged her.

In sum, that in itself doesn't indicate or give away anything. Baelish's story is that Alayne's mother was a gentlewoman, and that is enough to not make her being called a lady sound automatically curious to casual eavesdroppers.

[Ragnorak]

<snip>

So, I've been wondering about this. Is Harry actually impulsive and crude, or is he being stupid as a fox here? What's the chance that he actually does know who Alyane is, and his apparent inability to wear a poker face about his alleged disgust for marrying a bastard is just a mask he's wearing? It would seem a little strange for the (next in line) heir of the Vale to marry a low-noble's bastard daughter, and even stranger for the heir in question to do so without expressing some serious reservations about social status, right? Is the lady doth protesting too much? I should add that I'm curious about this possibility because Lady Waynwood seemed pretty savvy, not very trusting of LF, and fairly close to the Royces. Is Harry's apparent disgruntledness and idiocy in expressing it really intended to make LF underestimate him, or hide the fact that he knows who Sansa is and doesn't want to appear to eager, or some other more subtle manipulation like this?

The line "he knows who I am" is pretty loaded and there's plenty of material to suggest Bronze Yohn recognized Sansa. Lysa is Cat's sister and Bronze Yohn has known her since at least Robert's Rebellion. He's met Cat multiple times and even met Sansa at Winterfell. I like to tread with caution though. Harry was capable of sweet talking his sway into two bastard children, but from his Alayne interaction is seems all about his looks and birth and not exactly his wit. He explains his first bastard's mother by basically injecting that dress makes you look fat into the conversation. The man is not exactly smooth. "Hey baby, I'm the heir to the Vale" seems to be the only pickup line he has. It could be an act, but most men only put on that act when they're really drunk. Of course the parting line about "No one ever told me you were clever" begs the question "What did they tell you?" So the material is definitely there to speculate, but I'm skeptical without further material.

The clever word also comes up a great deal this chapter. Quite the contrast from all the stupid comments from the Lannister contingent.

Here's the prior exchange between Myranda and Sansa

Lady Myranda snorted. “I pray he gets the pox. He has a bastard daughter by some common girl, you know. My lord father had hoped to marry me to Harry, but Lady Waynwood would not hear of it. I do not know whether it was me she found unsuitable, or just my dowry.” She gave a sigh. “I do need another husband. I had one once, but I killed him.”

...

Harry could have done much worse. I daresay that he will. Lady Waynwood will most like marry him to one of her granddaughters, or one of Bronze Yohn’s.”

She studied Alayne’s face and chest. “You are prettier than me, but my breasts are larger.

...

Yours are ample for a girl your age, but as they are bastard breasts, I shan’t concern myself with them.”

So on one hand LF making the match answers Randa's question about her or the dowry that was insufficient. But it is clear that Myranda is aware of the competition on the field and sensitive to being outmatched. She is also obviously resentful of the missed Harry opportunity. Still, Sansa hasn't stolen Harry from her. That opportunity came and went already for Randa before Alayne ever enters the equation, but that timeline isn't likely to matter to jealous inclinations.

In going through the last Sansa chapter Myranda says that Riverrun has fallen but Stormsend has not. So that gives us a bit of a timeframe reference.

There's also the curious ghost wolf howl and the Bran/Bloodraven reference through Mya Stone.

“You’re mistaken. I never fall.” Mya’s hair had tumbled across her cheek, hiding one eye.

Other than the three ravens and three hearts are there any potential follow ups on the old gods watching theme?

Exactly, hence I'm stressing that Varys would need to find the link between Dontos and his paymaster. And whilst I do agree that Littlefinger does know how to evade his informers, I am not so confident that he has been that successful in dodging them. After all, Varys knows he was behind Lord Eddard's death, he knew about Ser Hugh of the Vale, etc., and look now at the quote's content: for all of Baelish's careful planning to abduct Sansa, one "little bird" still saw Dontos and her. If not for that, nobody would've had the slightest idea of where Sansa was and who helped her. Littlefinger does know Varys has spies by the dozen, but does he know full well what the little mice are? He points out the "obvious" spies, the ones that are in the open and he can see, but what about those he cannot see? I don't consider this either unlikely nor impossible that Varys might know or find out because he's already proven he can find out seemingly well-hidden information about his rival.

Yes, outside the Vale we can guess that the Tyrells who were in on the Purple Wedding know exactly who Alayne is. While I admire your piecing together the Varys trail, I'm of the opinion that LF suddenly acquiring an epic beauty of a bastard daughter who happens to be Sansa's age right after she vanishes is more than enough for Varys. It is only LF's façade of being a nobody and a Lannister lackey that insulates him from suspicion. It is a bit of hiding in plain sight. The Tyrells and a Varys who know better would take the news of his newfound daughter as a confession. Though finding the paymaster would allow him to target LF's network without directly targeting LF as we saw the Kettleblacks do with the Lannisters. At least that's my take on Varys. I suspect he knows most everything except Jon's mother, Arya's fate, and the more recent developments in the North. Though I suspect his knowledge pool is diminishing as the story moves forward. Really, how believable is it that LF has pretty offspring?

<snip>

Great that you brought this up! I had just been rereading this passage and recalling Catelyn's words too. It's indeed advice on how to seduce a man, but there's something in the wording that made me think of that passage in AFFC where it's mentioned that Sansa will be needing more hair dye. Has she gotten it already? Her current hair colour isn't mentioned, but since Sansa doesn't express any concern over that, we can assume she has it dyed brown still.

However, Littlefinger is talking of her hair as if it were still auburn, using the same words as Catelyn did, and that is curious. Brown hair doesn't shine in the torchlight the way he's describing it; reddish and blond hair do, because the lightness of colour reflects the light of torches and fireplaces. So what are we to make of this? My suppositions are that: one, Littlefinger is seeing Catelyn II in his mind's eye as he speaks to Alayne and overlooking the brown hair, i.e. he's daydreaming, which his comment on "as your lady mother" and his impulsive kisses on the cheeks would support; two, he's repeating what he told her about Sansa eventually revealing herself with a Stark cloak and her long auburn hair flowing down her back, to encourage her further and remind her subtly through flattery what their plan is concerning Harry and Winterfell. And three, a wilder guess, that Sansa's hair might be lighter in colour now, as the hair dye is wearing off and the natural tone is starting to come back a bit more. Anyone that's dyed their hair will know that the dye wears off slowly with each hair wash and the original tone changes; so something similar might be happening here, that Alayne's hair, though still brown, is a lighter brown which could be starting to show reddish hues in certain lights, like sunlight and firelight, which tend to naturally enhance and amplify colours.

And one more thought I had: Littlefinger may be being more careful with his kisses and groping, but is not being more careful with his words, it seems, not when talking of Alayne's mother. That could be another clue people will pick up. "Your mother." Catelyn was at the Gates, she met people there, and some people who've seen Alayne have thought of Catelyn instantly (like Bronze Yohn), and with his repetition of "your mother," Littlefinger might inadvertently be reinforcing the suspicions of whoever happens to overhear this seemingly innocuous complimentary talk. If Myranda or Lord Nestor or Mya or someone who knew Lady Catelyn heard "like your mother," that has to light up a bulb in their head, if they're perceptive.

One of the qualities that always preceded Sansa was her astounding beauty and we see that precede Alayne with every encounter she has with someone new. Randa made note when they met atop the mountain as does every person who sees her for the first time this chapter. It invites speculation though is annoyingly not proof of anything.

The two quotes about hair in the torchlight though are a much more acute invitation to speculate. Even with the dye, the hair in the torchlight speaks to a vanishing disguise. I suppose it could be symbolic that Sansa's freedom and empowerment are eroding the Alayne persona, but it could also be a sign that the setting will trigger someone's memory. Who is here that was also at the Hand's Tourney? The two passages are far too similar to be by chance (unless Martin has a serious thing for gingers in the firelight.)

On LF not being careful, if Myranda does have suspicions I suspect they come from LF's treatment of his "daughter" and not Sansa's flaws in playing the role. Sansa overhears the conversation that is being had on the way in. LF does take her deeper into the vaults, but we aren't told where Lords Grafton and Belmore went.

Littlefinger put a finger to her lips. “I know what I know, and so do you. Some things are best left unsaid, sweetling.”

“Even when we are alone?”

“Especially when we are alone. Elsewise a day will come when a servant walks into a room unannounced, or a guardsman at the door chances to hear something he should not. Do you want more blood on your pretty little hands, my darling?”

It does not seem LF is following his own advice. In fact with the amount of drains on his time-- he who leaves nothing to chance missed the Waynwood and Harry the Heir arrival-- it seems he can't follow his own advice. You can corrupt men away from service but can't really corrupt them into service. He really seems like a man who never appreciated the true scope of the burdens of responsibility of the lords and kings he looked down upon. You simply can't do everything yourself and must trust someone. This new position he's in just screams how vulnerable he is to a version of his old self.

ETA:

Also it seems that Harry the Heir is really just the son of a landed knight. He's actually of the same social status as a Gregor or Sandor Clegane post Gregor's death. A noble's bastard seems to be a perfectly acceptable match for a landed knight. Granted he comes with a Lord Paramount of the Vale lotto ticket, but should Sweetrobin live to spawn he's just a landed knight sworn to House Waynwood.

[Colonel Green]

Also it seems that Harry the Heir is really just the son of a landed knight. He's actually of the same social status as a Gregor or Sandor Clegane post Gregor's death. A noble's bastard seems to be a perfectly acceptable match for a landed knight. Granted he comes with a Lord Paramount of the Vale lotto ticket, but should Sweetrobin live to spawn he's just a landed knight sworn to House Waynwood.

I'm not sure if Harry's father had land or not, since he doesn't seem to have inherited the Hardyng lands (whether they're a knightly house or a petty lordship isn't established). But I don't think he's quite on the same level as the Cleganes in terms of social status. The Cleganes are fairly recently promoted to the ranks of the gentry, just two generations away from being kennelmaster. We haven't been told anything about the origins of House Hardyng, but Ser Humfrey's participation in the Ashford Tourney would make them at least twice as old as the Cleganes, and I'd wager probably a lot older than that -- among other things, Harry's father married a Waynwood with Arryn ancestry, whereas I don't think that marrying, say, a Crakehall whose mother was one of Tywin's sisters would be something Gregor or Sandor could aspire to.

GRRM's world seems to assign noble bastards dramatically lower social status than they typically had in historical Europe.

[brashcandy]

There's also the curious ghost wolf howl and the Bran/Bloodraven reference through Mya Stone.

“You’re mistaken. I never fall.” Mya’s hair had tumbled across her cheek, hiding one eye.

Other than the three ravens and three hearts are there any potential follow ups on the old gods watching theme?

There's Bran Vras' theory on Sweetrobin's potential greenseer powers that could be taken into consideration here. The chapter doesn't give us any conclusive evidence one way or another, but one of Bran's points in the theory was that SR's dreams where he would be contacted by Bloodraven were perhaps less frequent due to him being regularly dosed by Maester Coleman with dreamwine to calm him. We don't know how much dreamwine is being administered to SR at the Gates, but his time there appears to have been fairly uneventful with him only now growing agitated with the prospect of Harry's arrival. He's more alert and aware of the dangers around him than ever. Sweetsleep is the real poison, and per Alayne's last AFFC chapter, one pinch was given to help SR down the mountain, with another to be administered at the feast. Sansa worries when SR is watching her dance with Harry that he may begin to shake, and thinks that Coleman would have given him a cup of sweetmilk before the feast. Yet, there's no way to be certain based on the maester's noted reluctance and the fact that SR himself might be more resistant to being given these drugs he passively accepted before.

[Ser Creighton]

I had a similar feeling. It can't be coincidental that both Lyn Corbray and Ser Shadrich are noted to be motivated by a bag of gold, which Alayne represents. As you say, further exploration is needed-- but I definitely have my eyes on this duo.

I get the distinct impression that moving into TWoW we'll see more of LF's missteps. His intricate plans are based upon information and thus are only as good as his sources. It's clear he doesn't know about Bran & Rickon, or Robb's will for instance, and I've long wondered what that gap in intelligence will do to his plans. He's admitted that Cersei's downfall is moving at a pace he didn't account for, and has obviously been forced to adjust his planning to account for that. I can't help but wonder just how often someone with so many plates in the air can adjust their footing before he loses control of a couple. :devil:

I don't know if this will help at all, and I am sure you know the chapters better than me in terms of Sansa, I did not have time to do a list of quotes from her new chapter, but I did go over and copy quotes from Crows 41, that seemed to have an obvious connection to the sample chapter. I am just going to post them here for easy access for the readers. There is something I am very curious about, I can't say I know if or how it will happen but it seems like it will happen. It's a bit of foreshadowing, I think the Falcon and Griffin will come into oppsition The sun and moon as well with the Vale and Dorne. The only way I can see it happening is for Sansa to reveal herself and Wed Harry and for Rickon to return, she will side with Stannis. It's the story of the winged Knight and his battle with the Griffin, I had wondered why Martin would mention it, but now the Winged Knights have returned and so has the Griffin and he is making for Storms End. Anyway it's the first quote and the others are just for easy access. I skipped the Littlefinger and Myranda talking about his littlefinger, but that is in both chapters as well, and while she is out Harry she may have her own plans for him, may even be an influential reason for her to become close with Sansa, just a Sub plot, but it may be possible.

Looking at the new chapter it seems to tie in well with her final Chapter in Crows. These are some of the main quotes from 41 which tie to the sample chapter.

You could read to me about the Winged Knight.

The Winged Knight was Ser Artys Arryn. Legend said that he had driven the First Men from the Vale and flown to the top of the Giants Lance on a huge falcon to slay the Griffin King

There seems to be a lot of repetition from her last chapter and her latest.

Will they be lemon cakes? Lord Robert loved lemon cakes, perhaps because Alayne did.

She sat on the bed and smoothed his long, fine hair. He does have pretty hair.

Well sleep and kiss and play games, and you can read me about the Winged Knight.

Its singing he cant abide, since Marillion killed his mother.

On the valley floor autumn still lingered, warm and golden, but winter had closed around the mountain peaks.

Petyrs friends at court had sent him word that the queen had men out looking for the Imp and Sansa Stark. It will mean my head if I am found, she reminded herself as she descended a flight of icy stone steps. I must be Alayne all the time, inside and out.

He always smiles when he speaks of Mya Stone.

She likes to play the merry fool, but underneath shes shrewder than her father. Guard your tongue around her.

Oh, and the Nights Watch has a boy commander, some bastard son of Eddard Starks.

Jon Snow? she blurted out, surprised.

Snow? Yes, it would be Snow, I suppose.

My lord father had hoped to marry me to Harry, but Lady Waynwood would not hear of it. I do not know whether it was me she found unsuitable, or just my dowry. She gave a sigh. I do need another husband. I had one once, but I killed him.

Alayne was dreaming of her bed. It will be a featherbed, she told herself, soft and warm and deep, piled high with furs. I will dream a sweet dream, and when I wake there will be dogs barking, women gossiping beside the well, swords ringing in the yard. And later there will be a feast, with music and dancing.

Young Falcon and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maidens cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell.

[Ser Creighton]

On Sansa' hair, someone suggested it may be lighter, at the party it showed like fire in the torch light. The red must be coming out in order to do that.

I don't know if anyone could attempt to take Sansa, as taking her would reveal who she is. The Lords of the Vale for the most part have no love for the Lions. But threaten a Stark/Tully and you probably have some very angry lords. You would never get out of the Vale with her.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Oh, so glad to see this thread! I posted in the main thread, and it's discouraging to see how much hate there still is for my girl Sansa. :bawl: This chapter just Made. My. Day. (though I didn't read it until today)

Lots and lots and lots to think about here, but some preliminaries:

- I agree with those who wonder how much Randa knows. Even for a "thirsty" and dirty-talking kind of woman, for her to ask LF's daughter about how big her dad's dick is... :ack: Just No. I don't think even Randa would be that crass. I think she wonders more about whether "Alayne" is LF's paramour.

- Butterbumps! said exactly what I wanted to about Sansa being Queen Bread. She seems to be set up for it in this chapter. I also wonder whether she's being set up as the Boy Lord Whisperer - she seems to be doing her best to get Sweetrobin up to speed as a real lord, not a spoiled and sickly little boy whose mother pampered him into incapacity. I wonder if she is being set up to be Rickon's regent eventually - there will be another boy lord who needs a capable mother figure to train him up to serve in his position. In fact, if Roslin has a son who lives, but Roslin dies - there might be another little boy who needs a substitute mother - will Sansa be running from North to Vale to Riverlands to hold the hands and guide the councils of small boy rulers? It would make her a power behind the throne, and it's definite now that she's being trained as a politician. And it would give her a perfect excuse to not have to remarry.

- I see Sansa going farther down the "I don't ever want to marry again" course here - she's not at all emotionally invested in Harry. The prospect of another handsome husband doesn't move her - and I think most of us called that at the end of AFFC. I wonder if she's being set up as an Elizabeth I figure - even if she's not a reigning queen, she will be a powerful woman in her own right with no need or desire to remarry, and I for one could not blame her one teensy little bit.

- She has not lost her kindness. She was so sweet to poor Wallace Waynwood, rescuing him when he stammered. I was glad to see that.