(TWOW Spoilers) From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XXII

[Milady of York]

Kitten, you're back! Glad that you came, we missed the PtP regulars from the old days a lot.

- I see Sansa going farther down the "I don't ever want to marry again" course here - she's not at all emotionally invested in Harry. The prospect of another handsome husband doesn't move her - and I think most of us called that at the end of AFFC. I wonder if she's being set up as an Elizabeth I figure - even if she's not a reigning queen, she will be a powerful woman in her own right with no need or desire to remarry, and I for one could not blame her one teensy little bit.

The way I see it, her not wanting to be married again isn't so much about marriage itself as about marrying for the reasons she wants to: for herself. It's always seemed quite curious to me that in all discussions of Elizabeth I parallels, the detail most frequently overlooked is that in her case remaining single was literally the only option she had to keep her throne and rule alone, because given the laws of the era, whoever she married would be the head of state and technically her superior as man is above wife, and she didn't want to share power as well as she was astute enough to realise that her hand was valuable and coveted to be used as bargaining chip in political wrangling with other kingdoms. Elizabeth didn't remain single due to aversion to marriage as much as because she wanted to rule but the laws and customs of her time didn't give her any viable option that allowed her to have both, to marry and be sole ruler, so she chose what suited her ambitions best. That's hardly worthy of praise as a genuine empowering move, because that wasn't a free choice as forced by circumstances and we have no way of ever knowing what she'd have chosen if she had the options to marry and keep the power all to herself as was rightful. Women in that era, even those who ruled in their own right, were always in an inferior position, look at Eleanor of Aquitaine, who was trained to rule and ruled as Duchess in her own right since she was 15, but as soon as she married, her husbands were above her, and the second even had the power and rights to keep her a prisoner for 16 years. So, when patriarchy doesn't give you options, choosing to remain single isn't an example of true female empowerment as an example of choosing the lesser of evils. And for Sansa to go down that way would be self-defeating, since even in this chapter, though there's no outward sign of her not wanting to marry for a claim as in her last AFFC chapter, she still shows that she wants to be loved for herself, plus there's the abundant motherhood imagery throughout her arc, which is once more manifested here with Sweetrobin as you've noted. If anything, I'd say that her wish not to be married again can be understood as not if it's forced down her throat and chosen by others, and not as not wanting to marry at all ever again, for given a choice and a say concerning her partner, she would accept.

[brashcandy]

Welcome back, KRBD! :)

- Butterbumps! said exactly what I wanted to about Sansa being Queen Bread. She seems to be set up for it in this chapter. I also wonder whether she's being set up as the Boy Lord Whisperer - she seems to be doing her best to get Sweetrobin up to speed as a real lord, not a spoiled and sickly little boy whose mother pampered him into incapacity. I wonder if she is being set up to be Rickon's regent eventually - there will be another boy lord who needs a capable mother figure to train him up to serve in his position. In fact, if Roslin has a son who lives, but Roslin dies - there might be another little boy who needs a substitute mother - will Sansa be running from North to Vale to Riverlands to hold the hands and guide the councils of small boy rulers? It would make her a power behind the throne, and it's definite now that she's being trained as a politician. And it would give her a perfect excuse to not have to remarry.

:D Thanks for the funny image. It reminded me of when Roose Bolton talked about boy lords being the bane of their houses, but Sansa does seem to be managing capably. If she does become "Queen Bread" then she's going to have to be in contact with many different factions and it opens up the possibility for her influence to be felt in more ways than one. It also points to Sansa having a critical function in post-war, post-Others efforts to rebuild Westeros.

- She has not lost her kindness. She was so sweet to poor Wallace Waynwood, rescuing him when he stammered. I was glad to see that.

Indeed. The danger of any prolonged association and involvement with LF is that one begins to see people as mere pieces to be used and discarded, and with Sansa's compassion and empathy such defining traits, it would be a tragedy for her to lose them in a pursuit of LF's objectives. This chapter reveals that while she has become more shrewd and artful by necessity, she still retains an affinity for connecting with others on a genuine level and being responsive to their shortcomings. In addition to the example you mentioned with Ser Wallace, there's her quick hug with Lothor Brune when he comforts her after Harry's rudeness. Even her uncharacteristically unkind thought about SR is followed up by her thinking that his wife will surely love his hair, if that's the only thing she can love. And she's particularly sensitive to the concerns of others, noticing that Mya Stone is unhappy about Mychel being present for the tourney. Of course, these aren't just "nice" qualities for Sansa to possess; they can actually be deployed as strategies to combat LF's exploitative approach. When news of Cersei's arrest and walk of shame finally arrive in the Vale, I can imagine that the view Sansa expressed long ago in conversation with Cersei will once more be foregrounded in her thoughts:

“I will remember, Your Grace,” said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people’s loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I’ll make them love me.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

It's good to be back! I missed P2P!

Just a couple more observations: This chapter seems to be paralleling Cersei's journey as was touched on in earlier threads regarding her AFFC chapters. It's even more obvious now that Sansa is on her way up just as Cersei is on her way down - and, as I see it, is being set up as the younger, more beautiful nemesis to Cersei. I wonder if the rider on the lathered horse was bearing news of Cersei's arrest?

Harry is a douche. Maybe the first impressions will change with time, but as it is, he's from House Massengill. He not only insults Sansa, he does it right in front of the Waynwoods. Unless this is part of a charade and the Waynwoods are in on it, Anya, the stickler for courtesy, was probably dying of embarrassment. She has to realize that it reflects badly on her, as Harry's guardian, that he's so rude to one of his hostesses. Then, when he and Sansa are dancing, he outdoes himself with "The mother of my child is a fat cow BECAUSE SHE BORE MY CHILD so I discarded her." Stay classy, Harry. :ack: In no way is he on the level of a Joffrey, but he certainly does not have the manners that the possible future Lord of the Vale should have. (Especially in a region where so much store is set by honor and manners!)

If Bronze Yohn ever glimpses "Alayne" with red hair from the torches shining on it or whatever, he is absolutely going to know what's up and who "Alayne" is. He's met Catelyn. I'm sure that Winterfell threw a feast in his honor when he visited, complete with torchlight. As I've pointed out before, just dying your hair won't change your looks all that much. That makes me wonder how many people who knew Lysa Arryn when she was young, see a strange resemblance to her in "Alayne?" I don't think Petyr's secret is as secret as he thinks it is.

More tomorrow!

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Hi everyone, I was very pleased to see this thread, and have very much enjoyed the read so far. I look forward to It's development. :D

Firstly, my early impressions on the newly released material, have been touched on up thread. Including.....

- The writing style, it did have an odd feel to it, but the excitement of fresh text soon overpowered that.

- The obvious sass and confidence of Sansa/Alayne in her new role

- The meetings with Lothor Brune and Shadrich piqued my interest

- And no apparent Hound/dog/Sandor references

As to thoughts on the development of Sansa's character and storyline, I was very pleased to see that much of what'd been spoken about on previous PtP threads came to fruition. Not least the continued transition in Sansa's personality, as hinted at in previous books/PtP threads. Perhaps a slightly steep development, but gratifying nonetheless. There certainly seems to be a confidence gained from the company of Randa, and a development in her female persona, which was nice to see.

Tourney 'mayhem' next [ I think.], I look forward to that ! But the fact it was Sansa's idea is a nice touch. The Winged knights are interesting, and the '' to keep him safe '' notion could be linked to her previous security found with the Hound. That was certainly a feature in her arc with him, sort of trying to transfer the safety she felt with Sandor into SR's life. The ease with which LF adhered to the Tourney idea had me wondering though, could this play into his plans ? Or even enhance them ? The opportunities of support or manipulation, with so many Lords/knights around, could prove enticing.

I realise I only touched the surface, but without going on too much, and without some musing + homework...... the families, sigils and tapestries are thought provoking, + Brune, Shadrich, Kettleblack, Corbray and obviously Harry, mean the interesting characters stack up. Some great chat so far, early days for me in knitting together Sansa's arc, I look forward to reading more and contributing where I can. Keep up the great work ! :)

[Lummel]

Indeed, to have this feast after a war that's left hordes of starved people homeless and wandering aimlessly spells trouble...And I'm wondering too, if he's taken a leaf out of House Tyrell's book and plans to use this food to present himself favourably to those he plans to charm and win to his cause, to be seen as the "saviour" and the source of bread during Winter, with all the PR benefits it brings, seeing how the Highgardeners won the capital over with this trick.

sorry to cut so mercilessly :)

I would say - why do we think that Lord Baelish is clever. He really has been, so far, a kind of void in the story. We can imagine he is clever because we haven't been close enough to him and his activities to think any differently. Recently we've been seeing him through the eyes of a teenager - so, inevitably, he is going to come across as bigger, more capable and more intelligent.

Yet now as we see from the Corbray example, he is doing things that can be best described as very foolish and very risky.

My feeling is that if we start by assuming that Baelish is a gambler who overlooks the obvious risks - or assumes he can work with them, we arrive a sensible and consistent reading of him.

So there are danger signs here in what he says and in who he is talking too, what he is leaving laying around, what he is not doing, how he is and is not managing his relationships.

His survival hangs on Sansa marrying Harry. In this chapter we see Sansa prepared to follow Littlefinger's advice (but will that seduce Harry, more importantly will it win him over to thinking of marrying her as opposed to wanting to bed her

in the parlance of ASOIAF!

?) but also being mindful that she's still Tyrion's wife and can't legally marry!

[SeanF]

I'm not sure if Harry's father had land or not, since he doesn't seem to have inherited the Hardyng lands (whether they're a knightly house or a petty lordship isn't established). But I don't think he's quite on the same level as the Cleganes in terms of social status. The Cleganes are fairly recently promoted to the ranks of the gentry, just two generations away from being kennelmaster. We haven't been told anything about the origins of House Hardyng, but Ser Humfrey's participation in the Ashford Tourney would make them at least twice as old as the Cleganes, and I'd wager probably a lot older than that -- among other things, Harry's father married a Waynwood with Arryn ancestry, whereas I don't think that marrying, say, a Crakehall whose mother was one of Tywin's sisters would be something Gregor or Sandor could aspire to.

GRRM's world seems to assign noble bastards dramatically lower social status than they typically had in

historical Europe.

LF is now a great lord (Lord of Harrenhall, Protector of the Vale), rather than a petty lord. A marriage to his only child, even if she is a bastard, would probably be seen as a good catch for many mid-ranking nobles. And, there's always the prospect of a Decree of Legitimisation.

[butterbumps!]

Glad you made it, bumps :) This is a very interesting possibility. Bronze Yohn's question to Sansa back at the Eyrie - "Do I know you, girl?" - conveniently slots right into her meeting with Harry:

If indeed Bronze Yohn clued Harry into the fact that LF is really hiding Sansa Stark and passing her off as his bastard daughter, then he's sent Harry there as his double agent, and not out of the foolish honour that LF believes. It also fits right into the prevailing theme of this chapter of appearance vs. reality and the plots within plots framework.

Yea, I just can't shake the feeling that this might have some plot significance, as Harry's remarks about bastardy are just so bold they seem egregious and "unnecessary" (as you put it) otherwise. Harry as an agent for the Royces/ Lady Anya was clearly my first thought, but after reading Rag's post, it occurs to me that it could actually play the opposite angle:

Also it seems that Harry the Heir is really just the son of a landed knight. He's actually of the same social status as a Gregor or Sandor Clegane post Gregor's death. A noble's bastard seems to be a perfectly acceptable match for a landed knight. Granted he comes with a Lord Paramount of the Vale lotto ticket, but should Sweetrobin live to spawn he's just a landed knight sworn to House Waynwood.

While I agree with CG's comment on this that the Hardyngs are probably a lot older than the Cleganes, I think the overall point stands, and the way Rag wrote this reminds us just how interdependent Harry and LF are here. Without LF's plan to off SR, Harry is nearly nothing, and without Harry, LF gets no army. Is there any chance that LF and Harry have reached some sort of private understanding? (so that Harry's inelegance and seeming reluctance is a mask for the anti-LF side instead?)

Oh, so glad to see this thread! I posted in the main thread, and it's discouraging to see how much hate there still is for my girl Sansa. :bawl: This chapter just Made. My. Day. (though I didn't read it until today)

I did the same thing, and regret having read any of it all. It struck me as a lot of purposeful misreading for the sake of upsetting the Lemoncakes, and as such I pretty much shrugged most of it off, lol. But definitely a big thanks to Brash and Milady for creating this space.

[Ragnorak]

Yea, I just can't shake the feeling that this might have some plot significance, as Harry's remarks about bastardy are just so bold they seem egregious and "unnecessary" (as you put it) otherwise. Harry as an agent for the Royces/ Lady Anya was clearly my first thought, but after reading Rag's post, it occurs to me that it could actually play the opposite angle:

While I agree with CG's comment on this that the Hardyngs are probably a lot older than the Cleganes, I think the overall point stands, and the way Rag wrote this reminds us just how interdependent Harry and LF are here. Without LF's plan to off SR, Harry is nearly nothing, and without Harry, LF gets no army. Is there any chance that LF and Harry have reached some sort of private understanding? (so that Harry's inelegance and seeming reluctance is a mask for the anti-LF side instead?)

I did the same thing, and regret having read any of it all. It struck me as a lot of purposeful misreading for the sake of upsetting the Lemoncakes, and as such I pretty much shrugged most of it off, lol. But definitely a big thanks to Brash and Milady for creating this space.

The bolded part intrigues me. With Sansa's very direct comparison to Joffrey and Harry's shield quartered like Joffrey's I was looking for some connection. Littlefinger is known to have whispered into Joffrey's ear to get people killed. I'm not sure Harry is the type to hire a catspaw to kill Sweetrobin like the Bran attempt or somehow mimic the Ned beheading fiasco under the statue of Baelor, but some type of whispered manipulation by Littlefinger would make a great deal of sense. LF isn't the relative nobody he was in Kings Landing so it may be a far more direct approach than the Joffrey string pulling like Butterbumps suggests, but his manipulation of Joffrey seems to be the important parallel to pull from the comparison of the two (outside of the obvious in Sansa's own evaluation of what she wants in a man.)

[lojzelote]

To amplify your point, in the quote Littlefinger says "your lady mother". How likely is is that Littlefinger's paramour of Gulltown who presented him with a bastard daughter was a lady?

I don't know about the rest, but Alayne's mother was a lady of sorts:

“Alayne... Stone, would it be?” When he nodded, she said, “But who is my mother?”

“Kella?”

“Please no,” she said, mortified.

“I was teasing. Your mother was a gentlewoman of Braavos, daughter of a merchant prince. We met in Gulltown when I had charge of the port. She died giving you birth, and entrusted you to the Faith.

[Lummel]

...I'm not sure Harry is the type to hire a catspaw to kill Sweetrobin like the Bran attempt or somehow mimic the Ned beheading fiasco under the statue of Baelor, but some type of whispered manipulation by Littlefinger would make a great deal of sense. LF isn't the relative nobody he was in Kings Landing so it may be a far more direct approach than the Joffrey string pulling like Butterbumps suggests, but his manipulation of Joffrey seems to be the important parallel to pull from the comparison of the two (outside of the obvious in Sansa's own evaluation of what she wants in a man.)

along those lines don't we learn in AFFC that Old Lord Hunter was bumped off by one of his sons and that one or both of the brothers might discover a premature termination to their daily activity?

Since this is something that Lord Baelish knows it seems to me that he might well have been involved in the decision making process. Having said that given the Sweetsleep we could say that the means and method of Sweetrobin's demise has already been decided upon with poor Maester C. set up as scapegoat. Hence perhaps the need to hurry Sansa's Harry seduction?

[butterbumps!]

The bolded part intrigues me. With Sansa's very direct comparison to Joffrey and Harry's shield quartered like Joffrey's I was looking for some connection. Littlefinger is known to have whispered into Joffrey's ear to get people killed. I'm not sure Harry is the type to hire a catspaw to kill Sweetrobin like the Bran attempt or somehow mimic the Ned beheading fiasco under the statue of Baelor, but some type of whispered manipulation by Littlefinger would make a great deal of sense. LF isn't the relative nobody he was in Kings Landing so it may be a far more direct approach than the Joffrey string pulling like Butterbumps suggests, but his manipulation of Joffrey seems to be the important parallel to pull from the comparison of the two (outside of the obvious in Sansa's own evaluation of what she wants in a man.)

That's true wrt Joffrey, but I confess I was actually thinking about the tacit arrangement LF and Good King Bob seemed to have, and if LF might be seeing some Robert in Harry (I think a Harry-Robert parallel might be a little intentional). Part of the reason LF got away with so much is because Robert really didn't care to rule or deal with administrative matters, and Robert was quick to write off cases of corruption when it did come forward (like LF's man, the venerable Janos Slynt). So I was more thinking of the two coming to a more direct private agreement. In fact, perhaps something that mirrors Tywin's delivery of Targ babies to the new king in the form of LF's promising Harry that SR is already close to death (either due to a naturally poor constitution or due to a suspected poisoner like the maester (as Lum suggests)). I may be down a rabbit hole about this, though. Something's just nagging me about it.

ETA: I hasten to add that I'm not sure if Harry and Robert are truly that fundamentally similar, but I wonder if LF's decided that they are, and as such, might be hoping to handle Harry in the same manner.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

A couple more things: I found it interesting that Randa was wearing a gray wool dress - gray wool being something that Starks are depicted wearing quite a bit. Does this mean that Randa knows full well who Sansa really is and/or will be an ally to her as Sansa? She wears a green cloak over the dress, which she loses after running to greet Harry and the Waynwoods. I'm not sure what to make of that; green is not in the Royce house colors; but Petyr's personal coat of arms has mockingbirds on a green field - perhaps Randa will shed any allegiance with Littlefinger and side with Sansa?

Then we have Lyn Corbray, and I see a whole lot packed into that small scene. Mostly, Sansa picks up that Lyn is not the staunch ally to LF that she thought he was - and, more importantly, that LF thinks he is. The idea that Lyn could be LF's "foe pretending to be his man pretending to be his foe" is intricate, and no, haters, it might well make a fourteen-year-old's head spin - but Sansa has little time to think about that because the Mad Mouse is there when she turns around. The point is that Sansa is already aware that Ser Lyn really is a loose cannon. Is he Petyr's man? Or is he double-crossing Petyr? Does Petyr even suspect that Ser Lyn might not be his loyal tool? (though a tool he definitely IS, ha ha)

LF has told Sansa that all Lyn Corbray wants is boys and gold and killing. But in this scene, we see that Ser Lyn also wants the lordship of Heart's Home - and he seems quite put out that brother Lyonel's new wife is pregnant, which means that Ser Lyn is no longer his brother's heir. It looks like "gold, boys, and killing" are not, after all, the only things that Ser Lyn wants. So now has LF overreached himself - being all smug about how Ser Lyn is bought and paid for, but Ser Lyn has other plans? Ser Lyn is a ticking time bomb waiting to go asplodey in LF's face. Is he going to be one of the Winged Knights? A man with a notoriously bad temper, poor impulse control, and grasping ambitions is, here, in a place to reek all kinds of havoc.

I can see LF's house of cards starting to teeter - as many others have pointed out, this chapter feels like the calm before the storm. People have noted the resemblance to the Purple Wedding with the feast and merrymaking, but I wonder if parallels are being drawn to the Red Wedding:

1) Sansa compares Wallace Waynwood to Robb - "Robb died a king, and this one is still a boy." Ruh roh - she's thinking of Robb's death. Poor, poor Wallace. I don't think he's long for this world.

2) Robb was put to the task of mollifying discarded Frey women by dancing with them, and he "did his duty like a king." Sansa is doing her duty like a queen, so to speak - not just dancing with Ser Harrold, but she's dancing with many of the guests and getting her feet stepped on by pimply Uther Shett - shades of Robb dancing with the pimply Frey twins.

3) The food and the music are actually decent, unlike at the Red Wedding - but there still seems to be the ominousness in the air.

4) Harry talks about how beautiful his mistress Saffron is - to the girl he's supposed to be courting. Stay classy, Harry. In any case, it makes me think of the Spicers - "upjumped" because they are descended from merchants - and Jeyne Westerling. (Harry could do worse than marry Saffron. She'd bring a huge dowry. It's not as if the Hardyings are a great noble house anyway. I think that nobles intermarrying with merchants is one of the actually GOOD ideas that LF has, and indeed, it did happen quite a bit in the real Middle Ages. Anne Boleyn's great-grandfather was a merchant who made good. Do right by Saffron, Classy Harry!)

[Ragnorak]

along those lines don't we learn in AFFC that Old Lord Hunter was bumped off by one of his sons and that one or both of the brothers might discover a premature termination to their daily activity?

Since this is something that Lord Baelish knows it seems to me that he might well have been involved in the decision making process. Having said that given the Sweetsleep we could say that the means and method of Sweetrobin's demise has already been decided upon with poor Maester C. set up as scapegoat. Hence perhaps the need to hurry Sansa's Harry seduction?

I'm in desperate need of a reread-- the memory is going. I needed to look up Lord Hunter. It is the Snow Winterfell chapter at the end of SoS where Sansa recalls Lord Hunter's suspicious death amidst a list of non-idyllic circumstances in the Vale despite being spared the war. Curiously, Petyr's long absences are also mentioned at the opening of that train of thought.

In AFFC the eldest son who is suspect is among the lords declarant who visit the Eyrie and again Sansa recalls the suspicion of a hastened inheritance. It is this suspect Lord Hunter that makes the first crass comment about Alayne that is echoed by Lyn Corbray that results in the rebuke from Lady Waynwood.

To follow your death by Maester train of thought, we actually know who Lord Hunter's maester was from Cat's POV:

She’s small, I’ll grant you, and narrow in the hips, but her mother was the same, and Lady Bethany gave Lord Walder a child every year.”

“How many lived past infancy?” she asked bluntly.

“Five.” He ticked them off on fingers plump as sausages. “Ser Perwyn. Ser Benfrey. Maester Willamen, who took his vows last year and now serves Lord Hunter in the Vale.

So House Hunter's maester is a son of Walder Frey and Bethany Rosby, a brother to Roslin Frey of Red Wedding notoriety, but also Olyvar and Perwyn Frey who were not permitted by Walder to attend the Red Wedding because of suspected lingering Northern loyalties.

Lots of ways to piece that together depending on which dots you want to connect.

You paint a very time sensitive and deadline oriented plot for LF. Sansa can't be revealed until Cersei falls, Sansa can't remarry until Tyrion dies, Harry the Heir has to be seduced and roped in before the poison timebomb takes out Sweetrobin, but within the Cersei/Tyrion restrictions. "Bad" does not even begin to describe this plan...

[butterbumps!]

oh! I can't believe I forgot about this......

House Redfort was Domeric Bolton's foster family. I've been very curious about whether Lord Redfort and Roose have kept in touch in some way since Dom's "sickness" a couple of years before aGoT opens. If so, does it stand to reason that Roose might have some idea of the new Lord Protector and his apparently bastard daughter buying up power in the Vale? In light of how Roose would know that Sansa escaped, and how he's disguising a commoner as another Stark girl, doesn't he seem like a good candidate to put this together? I wonder if that throws a wrench into LF's plans; for instance, I can see LF anticipating the Tyrells and Varys to guess who Alayne is. Roose Bolton (and a Bolton-Redfort connection) wouldn't be something he could possibly anticipate though, and potentially very destructive to him, I'd wager.

[Milady of York]

Just a couple more observations: This chapter seems to be paralleling Cersei's journey as was touched on in earlier threads regarding her AFFC chapters. It's even more obvious now that Sansa is on her way up just as Cersei is on her way down - and, as I see it, is being set up as the younger, more beautiful nemesis to Cersei. I wonder if the rider on the lathered horse was bearing news of Cersei's arrest?

That is the likeliest possibility, because even though the timeline is giving everyone a headache, in something the current timelines we have do coincide is in that Alayne's descent from the Eyrie to the Gates happens before Cersei's arrest, which is a matter of days ahead according to the best fan-made global timelines.

Tourney 'mayhem' next [ I think.], I look forward to that ! But the fact it was Sansa's idea is a nice touch. The Winged knights are interesting, and the '' to keep him safe '' notion could be linked to her previous security found with the Hound. That was certainly a feature in her arc with him, sort of trying to transfer the safety she felt with Sandor into SR's life. The ease with which LF adhered to the Tourney idea had me wondering though, could this play into his plans ? Or even enhance them ? The opportunities of support or manipulation, with so many Lords/knights around, could prove enticing.

Welcome, Whizz! Thank you for coming and participating in the discussions.

This tourney has clearly political advantages that Littlefinger has realised, otherwise he'd not have been so accepting of the idea. His ready attitude called back flashes of his conversation with Sansa on the gallery by the throne room in AGOT, when he outright asked her why she thought Ned should've sent Loras after the Mountain, and she gave a smart reason wrapped in a very naïve mantle, yet nevertheless he agreed that it was a smart notion. His "what a clever daughter you are" proud pseudo-Papa reaction made me think he might have seen this notion of Sansa's through the same or similar lens: the tourney idea is indeed a great political manoeuvre with regard to Robin and the Valemen whose fruits Littlefinger will harvest later, and it's wrapped in a seemingly innocuous mantle of festivities and merriment like in the songs. The tourney itself, like the Hero vs. Monster reasoning, is something out of the songs to him, but the benefits, like the Tyrell vs. Lannister showdown that'd have resulted had Ned done what Sansa thought, was certainly good for his schemes. In this, he's also being placed in Ned's shoes, only that this time his "daughter" is heard and indulged in her apparent girlish wishes, which begs the question of whether he's even considered how this might play into his daughter's own plans.

[LongRider]

~~~~snip~~~~

I can see LF's house of cards starting to teeter - as many others have pointed out, this chapter feels like the calm before the storm. People have noted the resemblance to the Purple Wedding with the feast and merrymaking, but I wonder if parallels are being drawn to the Red Wedding:

1) Sansa compares Wallace Waynwood to Robb - "Robb died a king, and this one is still a boy." Ruh roh - she's thinking of Robb's death. Poor, poor Wallace. I don't think he's long for this world.

2) Robb was put to the task of mollifying discarded Frey women by dancing with them, and he "did his duty like a king." Sansa is doing her duty like a queen, so to speak - not just dancing with Ser Harrold, but she's dancing with many of the guests and getting her feet stepped on by pimply Uther Shett - shades of Robb dancing with the pimply Frey twins.

3) The food and the music are actually decent, unlike at the Red Wedding - but there still seems to be the ominousness in the air.

~~~snip~~~

I just skimmed the RW chapter, there was music there of course, but no singing by the musicians. (Great Jon was noted for signing 'The Bear and the Maiden Fair' even tho it wasn't being played at the time, however.) Cat asked about one Frey cousin who was a singer but was told that he was 'away'. So music without singing is another parallel.

[Lummel]

... Ser Lyn is a ticking time bomb waiting to go asplodey in LF's face... A man with a notoriously bad temper, poor impulse control, and grasping ambitions is, here, in a place to reek all kinds of havoc...

The other thing is that he can testify that he was bribed by Lord Baelish to ruin the talks between him and the Lords Declarent - which by itself would be quite enough to ruin Littlefinger's political position in the Vale and he is militarily vulnerable now that Sweetrobin has come down from the Eyrie.

The man has really greased his own tightrope.

...You paint a very time sensitive and deadline oriented plot for LF. Sansa can't be revealed until Cersei falls, Sansa can't remarry until Tyrion dies, Harry the Heir has to be seduced and roped in before the poison timebomb takes out Sweetrobin, but within the Cersei/Tyrion restrictions. "Bad" does not even begin to describe this plan...

The issue for me is how might Sansa look to extricate herself post Littlefinger? Does she come out of the closet wearing grey and white in which case every man with a pulse is going to be after her claim or does she plead the mother in Braavos and attempt to take ship there setting herself up for a reunion with Arya? Could she beat off the men who might marry her with a stick and set herself up as regent for her cousin Sweetrobin?

[Milady of York]

So the Three Musketeers have returned at the same time, and all are in sharp form! Need to practice my parrying more to keep up on par with you all, Lummel, Ragnorak and Lemoncakes!

His survival hangs on Sansa marrying Harry. In this chapter we see Sansa prepared to follow Littlefinger's advice (but will that seduce Harry, more importantly will it win him over to thinking of marrying her as opposed to wanting to bed her

in the parlance of ASOIAF!

?) but also being mindful that she's still Tyrion's wife and can't legally marry!

Good point, Herr Septon. Looking back at the track record of Baelish's schemes that depended on pimping out human beings for gain, his current one doesn't look quite promising simply because the thing he always fails to take into account is emotions, the wildest card of all wildcards. This might stem from his own case, in which he is totally lacking in empathy and genuine care for others, but in pimping himself out to Lysa, he didn't consider her own feelings were genuine if warped and that almost cost him dearly when she tried to kill Sansa. With Sansa herself, he didn't consider Tyrion's own problematic feelings towards women and marriage, plus the love of his brother for him, that would spare her and save him. With Jeyne Poole, he didn't consider Theon's feelings towards the Starks that would impact his rescuing her. And currently, he's again not considering what Sansa may or may not feel with Harry. He thinks like a whoremaster here.

oh! I can't believe I forgot about this......

House Redfort was Domeric Bolton's foster family. I've been very curious about whether Lord Redfort and Roose have kept in touch in some way since Dom's "sickness" a couple of years before aGoT opens. If so, does it stand to reason that Roose might have some idea of the new Lord Protector and his apparently bastard daughter buying up power in the Vale? In light of how Roose would know that Sansa escaped, and how he's disguising a commoner as another Stark girl, doesn't he seem like a good candidate to put this together? I wonder if that throws a wrench into LF's plans; for instance, I can see LF anticipating the Tyrells and Varys to guess who Alayne is. Roose Bolton (and a Bolton-Redfort connection) wouldn't be something he could possibly anticipate though, and potentially very destructive to him, I'd wager.

Intriguing possibility. That would depend on how well the communications between Vale and North are going at present, and even though the winter up North is being felt much harder at this stage, there seems to be still plenty of open channels for communication with the south, based on the news Jon and Davos were receiving at the Wall and Sisters/White Harbour. But my guess is that the news of the Vale are being filtered through the Manderly's port for now as the land routes are being closed in the Vale due to snows. Could the Manderly people be the first ones to hear of Alayne in the Vale amongst the Northerners?

On the Bolton-Redfort relations, do we to know that it was because of Roose and not his wife's House or family that Domeric was fostered there? Some northern houses seem to have strong ties with the Vale, and Lady Dustin's seemed to me to be one of those, so I wonder if Domeric went there thanks to his maternal family's connections. In any case, Bolton must know by now that Baelish is at the Vale, it's common knowledge, but as for whether he'd piece together that Sansa is the bastard daughter, it would depend on how much intelligence Bolton has on Littlefinger's backstory. For Varys and the Tyrells, it'd be easier because they know LF and they'd know he doesn't have a daughter, the former in particular, but we have no idea of what Bolton knows; so I'm thinking that perhaps he won't. But more than anything it's because of how things are going on for the Boltons: between Cersei's fall and Stannis at the Gates, the Boltons have enough trouble on their plate for the revelation of Sansa at the Vale to perhaps be of much greater impact than that, and more so if Rickon reappears first. Littlefinger is practically in the same position as them, in a way, as both depend on a Stark girl to succeed, and without the Stark girl, they're in trouble. I'd be looking for parallels in both Bolton-Baelish situations, therefore.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

A few random observations before I address stuff in posts:

- THIS was a controversial chapter? I have to LOL at everyone who was predicting, "Sansa will murder Sweetrobin!" "Sansa will be raped by LF!" I think the only controversial thing in this chapter was how disappointed Harry/Sansa shippers must have been when they meet Harry the Douche. Most of us here in the P2P threads were already predicting that Harry was not going to be the knight in shining armor that would make Sansa swoon and they marry and live happily ever after, but I think that was obvious to most people who read AFFC and noted Sansa's character development.

The only other thing that is controversial to me is - can an eight-year-old have pimples? I'm referring to Sweetrobin whose chest is described as "pimply." Isn't he too young for adolescent acne, or else maybe it's a side effect of the sweetmilk?

- How on earth do you make a twelve-foot-tall pastry phallic symbol, er I mean lemoncake, stand up? (Oh dear!) It must have had a lot of fondant or scaffolding! :lol: Littlefinger: "It is NOT little!"

[ornitorrinca]

A couple more things: I found it interesting that Randa was wearing a gray wool dress - gray wool being something that Starks are depicted wearing quite a bit. Does this mean that Randa knows full well who Sansa really is and/or will be an ally to her as Sansa? She wears a green cloak over the dress, which she loses after running to greet Harry and the Waynwoods. I'm not sure what to make of that; green is not in the Royce house colors; but Petyr's personal coat of arms has mockingbirds on a green field - perhaps Randa will shed any allegiance with Littlefinger and side with Sansa?

...

LF has told Sansa that all Lyn Corbray wants is boys and gold and killing. But in this scene, we see that Ser Lyn also wants the lordship of Heart's Home - and he seems quite put out that brother Lyonel's new wife is pregnant, which means that Ser Lyn is no longer his brother's heir. It looks like "gold, boys, and killing" are not, after all, the only things that Ser Lyn wants. So now has LF overreached himself - being all smug about how Ser Lyn is bought and paid for, but Ser Lyn has other plans? Ser Lyn is a ticking time bomb waiting to go asplodey in LF's face. Is he going to be one of the Winged Knights? A man with a notoriously bad temper, poor impulse control, and grasping ambitions is, here, in a place to reek all kinds of havoc.

...

This is probably looking too closely at it, but I'd seen Randa's position as embodying Sansa's current predicament. She's dressed like Sansa, with the Stark color dress and the green hooded cloak like the one Sansa fled King's Landing in. Also, she's seated between a bushy-bearded knight and a red-headed knight, similar to the hedge knights Ser Morgarth and Ser Shadrich, at least one of whom is positioned as a threat to Sansa. Hopefully she's able to get out of her predicament with the same ease with which she saves Myranda and she can shed the cloak, which hides her identity, in the process. [unrelated: the name Utter Shett had people laughing, but... "Ossifer Lipps"? Seated between the chest-obsessed pimply-gingerlad and ossified lips, I'd be distressed, too.]

And about Ser Lyn, Randa's joke about sausage made me wonder just how many people have heard these unsavory rumors about him and little boys (and Randa being so gossipy, how many people she, in particular, made comments like that to) and also if people in the Vale are equating "liking other guys" with "liking little boys," which are two completely different things... What could happen if the 'little boy rumors' reach his ears?

About SweetRobin's pimply chest- yeah, it struck me as weird too, and also unfortunate for him, since it is described as "flabby" just a few paragraphs later. Perhaps they aren't even pimples, but the onset of some illness Sansa does not recognize? Probably pimples, though. Poor kid can't win.

---

Since I am not well-versed in tournament/melee vocabulary, can anyone explain what it means to "win ransoms" ? I thought it was interesting that Sansa thinks of the opportunity to win prizes and ransoms in the midst of her conversation with Ser Shadrich. We know through Brienne that he had to ransom himself post-BBW and that he is thus in need of money (like a bag of gold dragons, also mentioned both here and in the Brienne chapter). A sellsword being interested in a champion's prize is understandable but I don't understand the ransom idea. He would not have spoken of his ransom, as it would tie him to post-BBW King's Landing, right?