(TWOW Spoilers) From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XXII

[Warsaw]

Hello. Long time lurker. Correct me if I'm wrong at any point! English is my second language, so Im sorry if I'm not clear enough.

I don't think it's been discussed, but I'm rereading the chapter and came across the meeting between Ser Shadrich and Alayne:

Alayne turned abruptly from the yard… and bumped into a short, sharp-faced man with a brush of orange hair who had come up behind her. His hand shot out and caught her arm before she could fall.

Did anyone else find this really similar to the several times when she bumps into the Hound? I'm not saying there's necessary simbolysm there, but it caught my eye. Maybe there's something there.

Also, about Randa's clothes when she's helpless between the men: We've seen Sansa wearing a green cloak when she escapes (actually I think theres a nice crackpot theory about whose cloak that is), and grey is her house's color. It also struck me as strange because they are dark, austere, northern; and Randa most certainly is not. I don't think it's an arbitrary choice.

[Harry the Hair]

Since I am not well-versed in tournament/melee vocabulary, can anyone explain what it means to "win ransoms" ?

If you defeat someone in a tourney you get to keep their armor (and horse?) the only way to get the armor back is to ransom it; meaning paying the victor some gold in exchange for your stuff.

[Harry the Hair]

Hello. Long time lurker. Correct me if I'm wrong at any point! English is my second language, so Im sorry if I'm not clear enough.

I don't think it's been discussed, but I'm rereading the chapter and came across the meeting between Ser Shadrich and Alayne:

Alayne turned abruptly from the yard… and bumped into a short, sharp-faced man with a brush of orange hair who had come up behind her. His hand shot out and caught her arm before she could fall.

Hello. :D My guess is that this scene is meant to make up for the disturbing lack of dogs and memories of the Hound in this chapter. Ser Lothor is also doing things that the Hound would typically do, calling Harry an Arse and such.

[ornitorrinca]

The Alayne chapter being made available on my birthday was an awesome surprise present! I had to fake a headache to escape the party and read it though... :blush:

What I noticed on my first (frenzied) read was how intuitive Sansa is, reading faces and interpreting the reasons behind others' emotions, though whether these assumptions are correct remains to be seen. Her compassion was clear with Ser Wallace but also with Myranda, as she recognizes the emotion in her voice as hurt, not necessarily resentment or jealousy. Hopefully she knows how to handle the situation. She also came across as a good mother right from the start of the chapter. Even with all the hustle and bustle of tournament preparations, Sansa is found sitting with "her little lord" Sweetrobin, reading him a story. Her "firm, but gentle" voice is quite typically maternal, at least in my experience. And as Sweetrobin is no typical boy, but the Lord of the Eyrie who can "do as he likes," she knows how to change tactics and she plays him well, with "Is that what you would have from me? A bastard?"

Something that creeped me out was that Sansa's apparently natural way of dealing with Sweetrobin, the way a mother would touch her child (stroking his hair and his fingers, putting a finger to his lips to hush him) is mirrored is Littlefinger's treatment of her, but unnecessarily amplified. In A Feast for Crows, he shushes her by putting a finger to her lips, but he also pulls her into his lap; he takes her hand and strokes the inside of her palm but then kisses the inside of her wrist. That LF interlude starts with a kiss, has a longer kiss in the middle, and ends with the request for yet another kiss. In this chapter, she remembers that after sending out the ravens with invitations to the tournament, he smoothed her hair and then kissed her forehead. As they walk through the vaults he puts his arm around her and leaves her by kissing her on each cheek; she took her leave of Sweetrobin with a curtsy, and that after snatching his fingers from him. If needy and infatuated Sweetrobin does not need that type of attention from Sansa, she certainly does not need it from Petyr Baelish. She seems to initiate physical contact especially when she needs to manipulate him. I am content with the fact that she thinks of Baelish as Littlefinger in this chapter, as well, showing she knows he's capable of such manipulation as well.

This is probably due to the Sandor re-read, but with the absence of specific references to him, I noticed a whooole lot of things that seemed to allude somehow to him. Also, the lack of direct references fits well with the absence of "Sansa" in this chapter. "...there's only Alayne Stone."

Harry the Hair: thank you for the clarification. :thumbsup:

[Milady of York]

The only other thing that is controversial to me is - can an eight-year-old have pimples? I'm referring to Sweetrobin whose chest is described as "pimply." Isn't he too young for adolescent acne, or else maybe it's a side effect of the sweetmilk?

On the Sweetrobin with pimples, we might very well be jumping to the wrong conclusion that it's acne when it could just as well be a rash. There are some skin irritations that appear in certain climates that can look like acne-originated pimples on first sight, and children are quite prone to skin irritations for a number of causes as theirs is more delicate, so skin eruptions are frequent in them. They can get easily the equivalent of a nappy rash wearing woollen clothing in humid weather, for example.

Also, Sweetrobin is hardly the outdoorsy type of child. And the skin of people that don't expose themselves to the sun much tends to have a pimply-like appearance and rougher feel when you touch it, due to the lesser amounts of Vitamin D, whereas people who expose themselves more to the sun tend to have skin with a smoother surface. To compare, look at the smoothness of your own skin in your arms, for example, contrasted to, say, your legs or any part less exposed to the elements, and you'll note the difference. Acne, on the other hand, tends to appear more on the face and back than on the chest, and Sweetrobin doesn't have them on his face that we have seen.

Since I am not well-versed in tournament/melee vocabulary, can anyone explain what it means to "win ransoms" ? I thought it was interesting that Sansa thinks of the opportunity to win prizes and ransoms in the midst of her conversation with Ser Shadrich. We know through Brienne that he had to ransom himself post-BBW and that he is thus in need of money (like a bag of gold dragons, also mentioned both here and in the Brienne chapter). A sellsword being interested in a champion's prize is understandable but I don't understand the ransom idea. He would not have spoken of his ransom, as it would tie him to post-BBW King's Landing, right?

I explained it at length in the Sandor Reread: it means that when in a jousting match one knight is unhorsed, he loses his warhorse and armour to the winner of the tilt, but he can recover them if he pays a certain amount of gold for both, which is determined by the winner. Once paid, the horse and armour are returned. That's for tournaments, in the case of Shadrich, it was in battle: he was captured in battle, and since he has the rank of hedge knight, he had the right by the rules of chivalry and warfare to buy his freedom with gold, which had to be paid to his captor. Shadrich had to pay, and it left him bankrupt, and that's why he's interested in the bag of gold that Varys offered, since it would mean a return to his good fortunes. During wartime, common soldiers and sellswords that are made prisoner could be killed or set free depending on the victor's whim, but noblemen and knights weren't put to the sword as a rule, it was profitable to keep them alive and ransom them to their families for amounts of money that depended on each's wealth, and that's why during war many common soldiers looked out for capturing nobles as a means to gain more money.

[Harry the Hair]

This is probably due to the Sandor re-read, but with the absence of specific references to him, I noticed a whooole lot of things that seemed to allude somehow to him. Also, the lack of direct references fits well with the absence of "Sansa" in this chapter. "...there's only Alayne Stone."

Harry the Hair: thank you for the clarification. :thumbsup:

My pleasure. ;)

Alayne is definitely looking for Sandoresque traits in other men.

There's Lothor's reaction to Harry.

Near the keep, she ran headlong into Ser Lothor Brune and almost knocked him off his feet. “Harry the Heir? Harry the Arse, I say. He’s just some upjumped squire.”

Alayne was so grateful that she hugged him.

There's Warsaw's quote about her encounter with Ser Shadrich (who also seems to be stalking Sansa)

Alayne turned abruptly from the yard… and bumped into a short, sharp-faced man with a brush of orange hair who had come up behind her. His hand shot out and caught her arm before she could fall

There's the horse faced Waynwoods, with heavy jaws; Arya was often mistaken for Sandor's child and she got the nickname horse-face.

I really want to know what the handsome Sisterman looked like. Based on Myranda's reaction, he doesn't seem to fit the conventional standard of beauty which makes me wonder if his looks are similar to Sandor's.

“Those Sistermen who came in yesterday were gallant,” she said, to change the subject. “If you don’t like Ser Ossifer or Ser Uther, marry one of them instead. I thought the youngest one was very handsome.”

“The one in the sealskin cloak?” Randa said, incredulous.

[Milady of York]

And about Ser Lyn, Randa's joke about sausage made me wonder just how many people have heard these unsavory rumors about him and little boys (and Randa being so gossipy, how many people she, in particular, made comments like that to) and also if people in the Vale are equating "liking other guys" with "liking little boys," which are two completely different things... What could happen if the 'little boy rumors' reach his ears?

Nobody in-story has ever said that Lyn Corbray likes "little" boys, just boys, meaning that he's a homosexual and that it's known. Littlefinger is the one that said he liked boys, and it's implied that he's his pimp as owner of brothels, but from that to assuming he's a pedophile, there's an abyss. Randa's comment only indicates that it's not a secret, at least not amongst the nobles of that circle, that Corbray prefers men, and "plump sausage" would hint at grown men and grown boys, not at male children, who aren't that sexually developed to be referred to in such terms.

[Bran Vras]

Like many of you, I have noticed a few things in the chapter. I read gladly all your contributions. I just wish to share one thought in this long post.

I noticed the following line from Randa Royce:

The first Lady Waynwood must have been a mare, I think. How else to explain why all the Waynwood men are horse-faced?

How else to explain is addressed to us, readers. We all have the answer in our subconscious, as does Sansa. One character is notoriously horse-faced: Arya. And Arya has the characteristic look of the Starks (shared with Jon and Ned, at least, but not with Sansa and Robb).

Now we just have to recall Catelyn’s account of the Stark genealogy.

“Your father’s father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest... it might have been a Templeton, but…”

The Stark look has been passed to the Waynwoods! The mare is none other than Jocelyn Stark, daughter of Lord Willam Stark.

Note also that the faces of the Waynwood do not look remarkable to Sansa (she has seen the like of them in Winterfell). You might be convinced by this. The more geekish of us can have a more precise look at the "lost Starks of the Vale".

It useful to have at hand the Stark genealogy published in the TWOIAF, and to keep in mind the important date of 226 when Lord Willam Stark died at the Battle of Long Lake, and the lordship passed to his son Edwyle. Of course, Edwyle’s sister Jocelyn was already born. Whether they were children or adults then, I can’t say. Also it is noteworthy that House Stark doesn’t normally marry his daughters in the south, which might explain why the horse faces feel so unusual to Randa Royce.

Catelyn said that Jocelyn’s daughters married lordlings (a term I understand as sons of lords, not necessarily heirs).

Let’s look at the Waynwoods first, and foremost. My reasoning on Lady Waynwood's age relies on the fact that she has a grandson, Ser Roland, aged about 25 and a younger son, Ser Wallace, younger than that (he has just been knighted). Hence her children were born about 25 years apart. Her fertile years began with her first son and ended with her last son. So she gave birth to a son before the age of twenty and to another son after the age of forty.

Let's say Lady Waynwood was born in 245, which would mean something like she had a son (Morton) in 260, who had a son (Roland) in turn in 275 (something of a stretch), Wallace being born around 280. Hence Lady Waynwood's mother was born at the latest in 230.

If Lady Waynwood’s mother is Jocelyn’s daughter, that would put the birth of Jocelyn Stark's daughter at the latest in 215. Jocelyn Stark herself would have been born at the latest in 200. We can relax a bit the generations but not too much. We need to contrast this series of ultra-short generations with Edwyle, Jocelyn's brother, who had his first grandson (Brandon Stark) born in 261. All this does not feel very natural, but it’s the best explanation I have.

(Edit : I propose a slightly better timeline below)

The other option (Jocelyn's daughter married Lady Waynwood's son), doesn't make of either Ser Morton or Ser Wallace a descendant of House Stark. But the timeline doesn't feel very natural either. Morton was born around 260. Jocelyn Stark was born at the latest in 226. Her daughter should be quite older than Ser Morton. Perhaps, it's a case of young boy marrying a grown woman. Note that Ser Morton asked for Lysa's hand in AGoT: he is widowed. Once again, that option fails to explain Wallace’s horse face. (One could question that Wallace is really Lady Waynwood’s son. But I don’t see support for any speculation.)

A third option would be to have Jocelyn’s daughter marry a brother of Lady Waynwood who died without issues, which would kill all the fun.

So we don't have a perfect reconciliation, but it seems that the horse faces of the Waynwoods could come from the Starks. It would work much better if Lady Waynwood's late husband had been the son of Jocelyn Stark. But Catelyn said that Jocelyn had only daughters.

I wonder why did Lady Waynwood bring Wallace with her. Ser Wallace, a stuttering boy, recently dubbed, hardly honors House Waynwood by his presence, especially since House Waynwood already brings the far more presentable Ser Roland and Harry the Heir to the tourney. So Ser Wallace cries out for an explanation.

About the other Waynwoods: Ser Donnel Waynwood (horse faced?) is guarding the Bloody Gate, as the new Knight of the Gates, in replacement of the Blackfish. In any case, it's an asset for the Waynwoods to have Ser Donnel in this position.

House Waynwood is tied by marriage to House Frey: Marsella Waynwood was the third wife of Stevron Frey, Lord Walder's heir (hence a significant marriage). Her son Walton is third in line, among the male Freys, for the inheritance of the Twins. I am not sure if he is involved in the Red Wedding. Marsella is now dead, but she has had grandchildren. Hence she might be Lady Waynwood's sister, which might explain why Stevron was so fond of the Starks among the Freys. She has maintained good relations with the Waywoods of the Vale, since Walton married Deana Hardying. (Harry the Heir is born also of a Hardying-Waynwood marriage.) However, among the grandchildren, at least one, Fair Walda, is at the Twins.

Of some interest is the fact that Jocelyn Stark was the daughter of Melantha Blackwood. I just had a look at the situation of House Stark back then. We have seemingly the classical situation of Lord Stark re-marrying with Melantha, and the heir born of the previous marriage dying at a young age. Of course, there are suspicions... especially since Melantha married Lord Willam when her kinsman Bloodraven, a noted kinslayer, was ruling the realm. We have another interesting purely matrilineal line to watch: Melantha, Jocelyn, her daughters and then, perhaps, girls born in houses Waynwood (Lady Anya), Corbray and Templeton that we have yet to meet.

About the Corbrays, the current Lord Lyonel Corbray is over forty, and his father died at the Trident. His first wife could have been Jocelyn Stark's daughter (if we believe that Jocelyn was on the younger side given the constraints). Or perhaps his mother could have been Jocelyn Stark's daughter, which fits better the timeline. So perhaps, an overly ambitious Corbray such as Ser Lyn could see himself as the heir of Winterfell, if he were aware of the genealogy. In any case, his brother Lyonel is ahead for any inheritance. That leads me to wonder whether Littlefinger has promised Winterfell to Ser Lyn, instead of boys and gold. Of course, it's debatable whether Littlefinger has any means of delivering Winterfell, but he can surely make promises.

I can't say much about the Templetons, and Catelyn wasn't even sure that Jocelyn's third daughter married into that house. It might be worthwhile to consider that another house has been mistaken for the Templetons by Catelyn. Besides, the third daughter of Jocelyn is the least likely to hope for inheritance.

If some of the descendants of Jocelyn Stark hope to be heir of the north, the existence of Sansa will surely be an obstacle, as would be the other potential heirs in the Vale. Whether Littlefinger is aware of all this is an open question. But he knows that the girl who passes for Arya Stark is an imposter. In any case, Littlefinger has promised Sansa that she will wed Harry as a Sansa, not as Alayne. So he plans to uncover her identity, or he has lied.

This is all I have to say about the backdrop of the theme of the "lost Starks of the Vale", which might be completely irrelevant. But it is fun to consider!

[Mithras]

“The clans have grown bolder since Lord Jon died,” Ser Donnel said. He was a stocky youth of twenty years, earnest and homely, with a wide nose and a shock of thick brown hair.

Might be the Stark hair.

“May we enter the Vale?” Ser Donnel asked. The Waynwoods were ever ones for ceremony.

“In the name of Robert Arryn, Lord of the Eyrie, Defender of the Vale, True Warden of the East, I bid you enter freely, and charge you to keep his peace,” Ser Brynden replied.

I don't know how this information (the Waynwoods being very ceremonial and courtly) was used in the story.

[ornitorrinca]

Nobody in-story has ever said that Lyn Corbray likes "little" boys, just boys, meaning that he's a homosexual and that it's known. Littlefinger is the one that said he liked boys, and it's implied that he's his pimp as owner of brothels, but from that to assuming he's a pedophile, there's an abyss. Randa's comment only indicates that it's not a secret, at least not amongst the nobles of that circle, that Corbray prefers men, and "plump sausage" would hint at grown men and grown boys, not at male children, who aren't that sexually developed to be referred to in such terms.

When Littlefinger said "gold and boys and killing," I read it as actual boys, not men. He had no problem taking Jeyne Poole into one of his brothels, so why not young boys? I don't think it is such a big jump to think that from Littlefinger's comment. And reading it that way, as pedophilia, I wondered who else would have heard it, as it's something Corbray wouldn't want getting out. Randa's comment obviously implies adult men. From that, I then wondered if there are two rumors going around, one about pedophilia and one about homosexuality, or if people are interpreting the same rumor ("boys") in different ways, as you and I clearly did. I never assumed it was grown boys/men he was interested in, and thought Randa heard "boys" and mistakenly assumed "homosexuality."

Maybe I'm the only person who thought of it that way. Did no one else read Littlefinger's comment as more sinister than a preference for adolescents/men, at least prior to reading the new chapter?

[Harry the Hair]

I don't know how this information (the Waynwoods being very ceremonial and courtly) was used in the story.

It explained why she felt obligated to make a compromise with LF when Ser Lyn barred steel during a parley and her getting Harry to apologize to Alayne and dance with her after he was a total Douche that very morning.

[Harry the Hair]

Maybe I'm the only person who thought of it that way. Did no one else read Littlefinger's comment as more sinister than a preference for adolescents/men, at least prior to reading the new chapter?

Yeah I read it as Ser Lyn being a pedophile, but then again LF could've lied just to make Lyn look more repulsive to Sansa (ironically LF himself is perving over a 13 year old girl...)

[Colonel Green]

I agree that the ages of Jocelyn/the Waynwoods are hard to make sense of, but it does seem like we're supposed to think that Lady Anya is Jocelyn's granddaughter. These ages would be a lot easier if she didn't suddenly have a 25-year-old grandson older than two of the three sons we'd previously met.

[Milady of York]

When Littlefinger said "gold and boys and killing," I read it as actual boys, not men. He had no problem taking Jeyne Poole into one of his brothels, so why not young boys? I don't think it is such a big jump to think that from Littlefinger's comment. And reading it that way, as pedophilia, I wondered who else would have heard it, as it's something Corbray wouldn't want getting out. Randa's comment obviously implies adult men. From that, I then wondered if there are two rumors going around, one about pedophilia and one about homosexuality, or if people are interpreting the same rumor ("boys") in different ways, as you and I clearly did. I never assumed it was grown boys/men he was interested in, and thought Randa heard "boys" and mistakenly assumed "homosexuality."

Maybe I'm the only person who thought of it that way. Did no one else read Littlefinger's comment as more sinister than a preference for adolescents/men, at least prior to reading the new chapter?

The bolded part is confusing... If Randa heard boys and assumed homosexuality, then she'd be right, because boys are males, the same genre as Lyn. The interpretation of pedophilia might be so because of readers inserting the extraneous "little" in relation to the simple term "boys," which isn't in the text. For it to be pedophilia, the male children should have to be very young and prepubescent, otherwise it's just plain homosexuality. Liking boys in itself doesn't equate pedophilia, as pedophilia is a sexual deviation that's separate from homosexuality and can occur in heterosexuals as well. Note also that in-universe people in the age range of Jon, Robb, Satin, etc., are called "boys," but having relations with them wouldn't qualify as pedophilia due to their ages being above the prepubescence threshold required for this label. The text is specific when it is speaking of pedophiles, look at the case of Septon Utt, who does get the "little boys" qualification that Littlefinger doesn't use for Lyn.

[Milady of York]

Double post.

[Milady of York]

Like many of you, I have noticed a few things in the chapter. I read gladly all your contributions. I just wish to share one thought in this long post.

I noticed the following line from Randa Royce:

The first Lady Waynwood must have been a mare, I think. How else to explain why all the Waynwood men are horse-faced?

How else to explain is addressed to us, readers. We all have the answer in our subconscious, as does Sansa. One character is notoriously horse-faced: Arya. And Arya has the characteristic look of the Starks (shared with Jon and Ned, at least, but not with Sansa and Robb).

Now we just have to recall Catelyn’s account of the Stark genealogy.

“Your father’s father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest... it might have been a Templeton, but…”

The Stark look has been passed to the Waynwoods! The mare is none other than Jocelyn Stark, daughter of Lord Willam Stark.

Note also that the faces of the Waynwood do not look remarkable to Sansa (she has seen the like of them in Winterfell). You might be convinced by this. The more geekish of us can have a more precise look at the "lost Starks of the Vale".

It useful to have at hand the Stark genealogy published in the TWOIAF, and to keep in mind the important date of 226 when Lord Willam Stark died at the Battle of Long Lake, and the lordship passed to his son Edwyle. Of course, Edwyle’s sister Jocelyn was already born. Whether they were children or adults then, I can’t say. Also it is noteworthy that House Stark doesn’t normally marry his daughters in the south, which might explain why the horse faces feel so unusual to Randa Royce.

Catelyn said that Jocelyn’s daughters married lordlings (a term I understand as sons of lords, not necessarily heirs).

Let’s look at the Waynwoods first, and foremost. My reasoning on Lady Waynwood's age relies on the fact that she has a grandson, Ser Roland, aged about 25 and a younger son, Ser Wallace, younger than that (he has just been knighted). Hence her children were born about 25 years apart. Her fertile years began with her first son and ended with her last son. So she gave birth to a son before the age of twenty and to another son after the age of forty.

Let's say Lady Waynwood was born in 245, which would mean something like she had a son (Morton) in 260, who had a son (Roland) in turn in 275 (something of a stretch), Wallace being born around 280. Hence Lady Waynwood's mother was born at the latest in 230.

If Lady Waynwood’s mother is Jocelyn’s daughter, that would put the birth of Jocelyn Stark's daughter at the latest in 215. Jocelyn Stark herself would have been born at the latest in 200. We can relax a bit the generations but not too much. We need to contrast this series of ultra-short generations with Edwyle, Jocelyn's brother, who had his first grandson (Brandon Stark) born in 261. All this does not feel very natural, but it’s the best explanation I have.

The other option (Jocelyn's daughter married Lady Waynwood's son), doesn't make of either Ser Morton or Ser Wallace a descendant of House Stark. But the timeline doesn't feel very natural either. Morton was born around 260. Jocelyn Stark was born at the latest in 226. Her daughter should be quite older than Ser Morton. Perhaps, it's a case of young boy marrying a grown woman. Note that Ser Morton asked for Lysa's hand in AGoT: he is widowed. Once again, that option fails to explain Wallace’s horse face. (One could question that Wallace is really Lady Waynwood’s son. But I don’t see support for any speculation.)

A third option would be to have Jocelyn’s daughter marry a brother of Lady Waynwood who died without issues, which would kill all the fun.

So we don't have a perfect reconciliation, but it seems that the horse faces of the Waynwoods could come from the Starks. It would work much better if Lady Waynwood's late husband had been the son of Jocelyn Stark. But Catelyn said that Jocelyn had only daughters.

I wonder why did Lady Waynwood bring Wallace with her. Ser Wallace, a stuttering boy, recently dubbed, hardly honors House Waynwood by his presence, especially since House Waynwood already brings the far more presentable Ser Roland and Harry the Heir to the tourney. So Ser Wallace cries out for an explanation.

About the other Waynwoods: Ser Donnel Waynwood (horse faced?) is guarding the Bloody Gate, as the new Knight of the Gates, in replacement of the Blackfish. In any case, it's an asset for the Waynwoods to have Ser Donnel in this position.

House Waynwood is tied by marriage to House Frey: Marsella Waynwood was the third wife of Stevron Frey, Lord Walder's heir (hence a significant marriage). Her son Walton is third in line, among the male Freys, for the inheritance of the Twins. I am not sure if he is involved in the Red Wedding. Marsella is now dead, but she has had grandchildren. Hence she might be Lady Waynwood's sister, which might explain why Stevron was so fond of the Starks among the Freys. She has maintained good relations with the Waywoods of the Vale, since Walton married Deana Hardying. (Harry the Heir is born also of a Hardying-Waynwood marriage.) However, among the grandchildren, at least one, Fair Walda, is at the Twins.

Great theory, Bran! If you’re right, then Lady Anya Waynwood would be related to Sansa, and that would also explain certain attitudes she’s exhibited towards her since the first time she met Alayne in the Eyrie. Lady Anya must have known Catelyn, perhaps? And even without being told who Sansa is, she’d recognise the looks. She doesn’t need to have met Catelyn either, there’s Lysa with her Tully looks, and we do know for sure that they’ve definitely met.

You mention that you understand lordlings as sons of lords but not necessarily heirs; to that, I’d like to add that it doesn’t necessarily mean sons of lords either, it does refer to minor lords themselves, as in princelings for minor princes; so the lordlings the daughters of Lady Jocelyn married could have been minor lords themselves, and the Waynwoods definitely qualify as they’re not pretty prominent in rank. A daughter of Lady Jocelyn married to a Waynwood lord who was in turn the father of Lady Waynwood does fit under this reasoning, though the timeline is giving us trouble.

Also, there's this line describing her sons:

Ser Roland was the oldest of the three, though no more than five-and-twenty. He was taller and more muscular than Ser Wallace, but both were long-faced and lantern-jawed, with stringy brown hair and pinched noses. Horsefaced and homely, Alayne thought.

That also plays into your theory, because not all the Starks are “horsefaced” as this description also includes a salient mouth/teeth and not just the shape of the face, but theirs is a characteristically long face, which is how Jon’s and Ned’s faces are described, whilst the “horseface” description is limited to Arya only so far as we know, whilst more Starks do have those long and stern faces as described in the statues at the crypts.

Incidentally, I’m just realising that if your theory is true and Lady Anya’s great-grandmother was a Stark and if Carolei Waynwood is of the same branch as hers, then her son Donnel's squire Sandor Frey would be . . . a Stark descendant. If that's correct, it'd be humorous on Martin's part.

[Harry the Hair]

Incidentally, I’m just realising that if your theory is true and Lady Anya’s great-grandmother was a Stark and if Carolei Waynwood is of the same branch as hers, then her son Donnel's squire Sandor Frey would be . . . a Stark descendant. If that's correct, it'd be humorous on Martin's part.

Yay for Sandor Stark. :P Could this be a bit of foreshadowing?

[Colonel Green]

Lady Anya must have known Catelyn, perhaps?

She was at Tyrion's trial at the Eyrie in AGOT, so she presumably saw Catelyn there, though they never talked on-page (Catelyn talks with Ser Morton, though).

The whole "Vale cousins" thing never comes up there, but considering GRRM is famously a "gardener" it's quite possible he just hadn't thought of that element yet, since it isn't introduced until two books later.

[brashcandy]

LF has told Sansa that all Lyn Corbray wants is boys and gold and killing. But in this scene, we see that Ser Lyn also wants the lordship of Heart's Home - and he seems quite put out that brother Lyonel's new wife is pregnant, which means that Ser Lyn is no longer his brother's heir. It looks like "gold, boys, and killing" are not, after all, the only things that Ser Lyn wants. So now has LF overreached himself - being all smug about how Ser Lyn is bought and paid for, but Ser Lyn has other plans? Ser Lyn is a ticking time bomb waiting to go asplodey in LF's face. Is he going to be one of the Winged Knights? A man with a notoriously bad temper, poor impulse control, and grasping ambitions is, here, in a place to reek all kinds of havoc.

There's a recurrent pattern of LF misjudging men whom he believes are simply of the naked ambition sort or not foolish enough to "bite the hand that feeds them." There are many reasons why people do turn from previously long held, and even beneficial allegiances, as Sansa knows quite personally through her relationship with the Hound, and detects quite readily in Ser Lyn. So far, everything seems to be working well for Littlefinger, at least from Sansa's viewpoint, and this is the first time she's come across a potentially explosive spoke in the wheel. And unlike her thoughts later on about making LF "howl" with her clever wit against Harry, she doesn't seem inclined to clue him into Lyn's disgruntled state.

The bolded part intrigues me. With Sansa's very direct comparison to Joffrey and Harry's shield quartered like Joffrey's I was looking for some connection. Littlefinger is known to have whispered into Joffrey's ear to get people killed. I'm not sure Harry is the type to hire a catspaw to kill Sweetrobin like the Bran attempt or somehow mimic the Ned beheading fiasco under the statue of Baelor, but some type of whispered manipulation by Littlefinger would make a great deal of sense. LF isn't the relative nobody he was in Kings Landing so it may be a far more direct approach than the Joffrey string pulling like Butterbumps suggests, but his manipulation of Joffrey seems to be the important parallel to pull from the comparison of the two (outside of the obvious in Sansa's own evaluation of what she wants in a man.)

Speaking of Littlefinger's manipulations, I wonder if we're going to see another "Hugh of the Vale" tragedy occurring and how it could play out this time in the Vale. With the papers blowing about in his office that list the competitors, and Sansa's more cunning insight, it could lead to her making a significant discovery on LF's double dealings.

<snip>

If some of the descendants of Jocelyn Stark hope to be heir of the north, the existence of Sansa will surely be an obstacle, as would be the other potential heirs in the Vale. Whether Littlefinger is aware of all this is an open question. But he knows that the girl who passes for Arya Stark is an imposter. In any case, Littlefinger has promised Sansa that she will wed Harry as a Sansa, not as Alayne. So he plans to uncover her identity, or he has lied.

This is all I have to say about the backdrop of the theme of the "lost Starks of the Vale", which might be completely irrelevant. But it is fun to consider!

Wonderful break down of the lineage, Bran :) It occurs to me that as the ones excluded from Robb's will in gaining Winterfell, there's a sort of narrative "rightness" to Sansa and her Waynwood cousins potentially working together against Littlefinger, after having previously depended on him. Like you, I'm also wondering why Ser Wallace was brought to the tourney, but perhaps his contrast to the suave Roland and brash Harry will be of importance later on.

[Colonel Green]

I wonder why did Lady Waynwood bring Wallace with her. Ser Wallace, a stuttering boy, recently dubbed, hardly honors House Waynwood by his presence, especially since House Waynwood already brings the far more presentable Ser Roland and Harry the Heir to the tourney. So Ser Wallace cries out for an explanation.

May be as simple as Wallace wanting to compete and Lady Anya, if she's an affectionate mother, allowing it.