Red Crabs, Spiders and Conquerors - The Others revealed

[Evolett]

Evolett:

The first clue for me came when Bran spoke "querulously" to Old Nan in Bran IV AGOT:

“Oh, my sweet summer child,” Old Nan said quietly, “what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”

“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.

“The Others,” Old Nan agreed.

The child corrected his elder. And she "agreed."

She described "The Others" yet said "white walkers." Bran, being the frustrated lordling he was at that moment, was not in the mood for one of Old Nan's senior moments.

This was the clue I picked up on upon my first read. After toiling on these interwebs, and having my distinction between "Others" and "white walkers" dismissed countless times, I thought I should re-read just to make sure I wasn't confusing something.

I grinned like a cheshire cat when I read this. After discovering the passage about the crabs, I went back to my compiled characteristics of ancient Others (I like your term), present day Others etc. and also to Old Nan’s tales. The ‘querulously’ also had me thinking but like you with the crabs, I decided not to follow up on that. I hadn’t paid attention to that before but now it seemed to lead to the idea of a possible hierarchy. I ended up not pursuing it because I felt I’d be biting off more than I could chew at the time, hehe

One thing that did occur to me in terms of hierarchy are the preferred type of horses Lords and knights ride into battle, which may serve as a parallel to the spiders we assume the higher ranking Others ride: Lords and Knights ride destriers into battle. These differ in temperament and size from regular horses and garrons and are specially trained to act as secondary weapons on the battlefield. They kick and bite, have foul tempers and so on. A few men of the NW also own destriers and Ser Waymar rides one to his fate:

Mounted on his huge black destrier, the knight towered above Will and Gared on their smaller garrons.

We are constantly reminded of their unsuitability in forest terrain, in snowy conditions and over rough ground. The NW , clan men of the North and wildlings prefer hardy, surefooted garrons. If Present day Others need a mount, they are more likely to resurrect garrons, simply because there are probably many more garrons north of the Wall than destriers. They also benefit from their surefootedness (assuming this trait remains). In this scenario, we have the higher echelons (both men and Others) riding specially trained mounts while their subordinates ride regular horses or garrons. Destriers are trained to aid in battle. According to Old Nan, spiders are used to stalk or track, much like hounds, implying that they are trained as well. I’m not sure whether this can be used as a valid argument, it’s simplistic, just something I noticed, a bit of speculation on my part.

Coldhands is a mystery to me. The emphasis on 'Brandon Stark' stands out and though there's no proof, my first thought was that he indeed told Bran his own name I believe that ‘he died a long time ago’ means he died a really long time ago and really like your take on this. Please point me to a link to the relevant Heresy thread :)

I don’t think our findings are mutually exclusive. I feel the two theories complement each other and could be merged into one if more support emerges in the future. Spiders are not that prevalent in the story though (with the exception of Varys^^) but perhaps a look at the World Book will reveal more.

[Evolett]

Wall vs Walls makes no matter (I think Bran the Builder simply consolidated and connected the watchers and walls of the north into the Night's Watch and the Wall), but you might be interested to learn that Craster is the name of a fishing village on the Northumbrian coast of England. That fishing village is known for their herron-curing. Outside of Craster's Keep we find some fish curing as well. Craster is a red herring :D

Lol. George will be left with a host of batty readers by the time this series is done. :bang:

[Evolett]

I think I am becoming a big fan of coldhands as one of the LH’s companions. It makes sense... when he says he’s been waiting for Bran, I think he’s been WAITING for Bran, like ten thousand years waiting. Like, WAITING. Your iPhone ain’t gonna pass the time, knowwhadimean? When he says that either he or Bloodraven is “your monster, Brandon Stark” I note the emphasis on the full name and wonder if Bran is the fulfillment of an ancient Stark pact of some kind, one which involved Coldhands waiting for Bran.

Related Coldhands / LH idea: the 13 of them died, not accidentally, but intentionally. They sacrificed themselves specifically to be resurrected as Coldhands-style, conscious wights, because no one else could fight the Others or even stand the cold to get near them. By turning themselves into wights, maybe with the help of greenseers (not sure who else could make a wight apart from an Other except a cotf greenseer), they became the perfect weapons to go north and fight the Others.

Remember when BR cautions Bran against trying to raise the dead? Doesn’t that mean it’s possible, but horrific? Kind of makes you think. Maybe the first Others were created by greasers trying to raise the dead, or perhaps the greenseers made the 13 to fight the Others but later regretted it, leading to the NK story where a LC had to be cast down.

This is just great! My ‘tummy gave a little flutter’ when I read this. I’ve been speculating on just such a scenario in light of the current events, the only difference being that the persons involved will not consciously sacrifice themselves, at least not initially. I believe Jon is the first of these persons. Now, the whole notion is so preposterous that I put it aside in spite of interesting bits of information that appear meaningful. Another reason I put the idea on the backburner is of course Jon – I simply don’t want him to come back as a Coldhands type wight but hmm. I will not post the idea here just yet – it’s too crackpot – but I’ll be happy to share it via pm if you’re interested.

I read your Astronomy of Planetos II: The Bloodstone Compendium post recently. Totally fascinating. You delve into history and religion – there’s so much there that a debate on whether or not the respective theories are true or not seems almost petty. Simply reading the material you present is enriching in itself. Awesome!

PS - Sorry, just noticed your question on white spider crabs. It's a mistake in some instances. Borrell only speaks of spider crabs . Old Nan speaks of white spiders. Arya thinks of her victim's hands as two white spiders. Thanks for pointing that out.

[LmL]

This is just great! My ‘tummy gave a little flutter’ when I read this. I’ve been speculating on just such a scenario in light of the current events, the only difference being that the persons involved will not consciously sacrifice themselves, at least not initially. I believe Jon is the first of these persons. Now, the whole notion is so preposterous that I put it aside in spite of interesting bits of information that appear meaningful. Another reason I put the idea on the backburner is of course Jon – I simply don’t want him to come back as a Coldhands type wight but hmm. I will not post the idea here just yet – it’s too crackpot – but I’ll be happy to share it via pm if you’re interested.

I read your Astronomy of Planetos II: The Bloodstone Compendium post recently. Totally fascinating. You delve into history and religion – there’s so much there that a debate on whether or not the respective theories are true or not seems almost petty. Simply reading the material you present is enriching in itself. Awesome!

PS - Sorry, just noticed your question on white spider crabs. It's a mistake in some instances. Borrell only speaks of spider crabs . Old Nan speaks of white spiders. Arya thinks of her victim's hands as two white spiders. Thanks for pointing that out.

Yeah send me that PM. I have a more to this idea as well, but I usually don't like to spill the beans until I can figure out of something is crackpot or at least plausible. I think Garth the Green plays into this.

Thanks very much for the kind words.. Of course you really have to read part one, that's the best one probably and the most groundbreaking. But I definitely found the exploration of the Lucifer mythology and others to be personally rewarding, as you said, ASOIAF theories nonwithstanding. Studying ancient myth and religion is absolutely fascinating. I can't help but think part of the purpose of George including so much of it in the story is to encourage people to learn more about mythology and the language of symbolism.

[Voice]

I have a very strong hunch you may also find this quote I ended up not using interesting:

"That may be years." Dunk was grateful to the fat septon, who had visited him near every day . . . to pray for him, ostensibly, though more time seemed to be taken up with tales and gossip. He would miss his loose and lively tongue and cheerful company, but that changed nothing. "I need to go."

The rain was lashing down around them, a thousand cold gray whips upon his back. His cloak was already sodden. It was the white wool cloak Ser Eustace had given him, with the green-and-gold-checkered border. The old knight had pressed it on him once again, as a parting gift. "For your courage and leal service, ser," he said. The brooch that pinned the cloak at his shoulder was a gift as well; an ivory spider brooch with silver legs. Clusters of crushed garnets made spots upon its back.

This strongly evokes Ice Spider imagery, along with crushed garnet. White and red. Others and Blood. Or, weirwood... It didn't fit in very well with with the way I wrote up my theory, but I think it does with yours.

I grinned like a cheshire cat when I read this. After discovering the passage about the crabs, I went back to my compiled characteristics of ancient Others (I like your term), present day Others etc. and also to Old Nan’s tales. The ‘querulously’ also had me thinking but like you with the crabs, I decided not to follow up on that. I hadn’t paid attention to that before but now it seemed to lead to the idea of a possible hierarchy. I ended up not pursuing it because I felt I’d be biting off more than I could chew at the time, hehe

I can relate ;)

One thing that did occur to me in terms of hierarchy are the preferred type of horses Lords and knights ride into battle, which may serve as a parallel to the spiders we assume the higher ranking Others ride: Lords and Knights ride destriers into battle. These differ in temperament and size from regular horses and garrons and are specially trained to act as secondary weapons on the battlefield. They kick and bite, have foul tempers and so on. A few men of the NW also own destriers and Ser Waymar rides one to his fate:

It sounds like we are envisioning quite the same thing in terms of Ice Spiders. Here's where I brought up crabs in my hierarchy thread:

I understand the sentiment ;) my wife is an extreme arachnophobe. But I find it unlikely GRRM would not want to tap into such a powerful and instinctual fear within people.

We also have a real world parallel. Though not technically "spiders" we do have these and these inhabiting hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor. The latter are appropriately named "spider crabs." If you really want to torture yourself, there is a video of the prior, lol. The vents emit water that exceeds 700 degrees Fahrenheit. I think GRRM has written us a version that thrives in cold (which the Yeti Crabs do as well, as they may be found beneath Antarctica).

We are constantly reminded of their unsuitability in forest terrain, in snowy conditions and over rough ground. The NW , clan men of the North and wildlings prefer hardy, surefooted garrons. If Present day Others need a mount, they are more likely to resurrect garrons, simply because there are probably many more garrons north of the Wall than destriers. They also benefit from their surefootedness (assuming this trait remains). In this scenario, we have the higher echelons (both men and Others) riding specially trained mounts while their subordinates ride regular horses or garrons. Destriers are trained to aid in battle. According to Old Nan, spiders are used to stalk or track, much like hounds, implying that they are trained as well. I’m not sure whether this can be used as a valid argument, it’s simplistic, just something I noticed, a bit of speculation on my part.

It's not all that speculative, in my opinion. The training part is, perhaps. As I think we will find Ice Spiders to naturally desire hunting, and the scaling of walls :devil: But otherwise, it sounds quite logical to me, but you are sort of preaching to the choir in my case.

You might appreciate my little re-arrangement of text... all phrases by GRRM... and not entirely out of order:

Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound

a thousand hearts with a single beat

from the icy wastes beyond the Wall

an edge to this darkness

comes from the north

half-forgotten demons out of legend

the inhuman others

raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn

and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter

to extinguish everything that we would call "life"

cold and implacable

foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders

the dead men reached the top of the Wall

Might these foemen be a half Other, half Ice Spider, sort of centaur-like creature? We can only hope! LOL. Perhaps their hunting "hounds" are their recently hatched young... In any case, I have no doubt whatsoever that GRRM has been building up the spider/crab imagery for quite some time. We even find it in the Dunk and Egg novellas, as quoted above.

Coldhands is a mystery to me. The emphasis on 'Brandon Stark' stands out and though there's no proof, my first thought was that he indeed told Bran his own name I believe that ‘he died a long time ago’ means he died a really long time ago and really like your take on this. Please point me to a link to the relevant Heresy thread :)

Coldhands comes up so often in Heresy it's hard to point you to one, or even a handful. But I'll dig up some relevant posts later tonight. I have a class to teach today so I'll be off and on again.

I don’t think our findings are mutually exclusive. I feel the two theories complement each other and could be merged into one if more support emerges in the future. Spiders are not that prevalent in the story though (with the exception of Varys^^) but perhaps a look at the World Book will reveal more.

Agreed.

Lol. George will be left with a host of batty readers by the time this series is done. :bang:

This has been true for some time now, methinks. LOL

[Evolett]

@Voice of the First Men

Just shared an idea in your thread and came back here to find your post. That rearranged quote is very intriguing and kind of relates to your thoughts on children not being raised as wights.

Old Nan's tales suggest that the Others feed their dead servants on the flesh of human children. As far as we know, wights don't eat. Who are these foemen and do they form part of the hierarchy? You've got me thinking here. This might mean a revision.

Thanks for the Dunk and Egg quote. I've not read any of the novellas because I haven't been able to get my hands on any English copies, not even from that large internet bookstore.. There are copies in German available (I live in Germany) but I refuse to read a translation. Most subtlety and hidden meaning simply gets lost in a translation, it's quite appalling. I read the first Harry Potter in both languages and swore never again to read translated works if possible. This is a big problem on German boards. Discussions surrounding ASOIAF tend to remain superficial or stagnate and fans often refer to English texts to support their theories. I'm waiting rather impatiently for the collection due later this year..

Edit:

Something just occurred to me concerning what you wrote:

It's not all that speculative, in my opinion. The training part is, perhapsAs I think we will find Ice Spiders to naturally desire hunting

Coming to think of it, Ramsey's bitches are very unruly. They seldom exhibit discipline and are often left to do what they like. Fighting over bones and sausages, killing other dogs without being called back by the handler (Ben Bones, I think). It appears they are allowed to give in to their natural instincts. Yes, I agree that they lack adequate training.

[Modesty Lannister]

I would be very cautious with Old Nan's tales. Just compare what she says about the wildlings with the actual wildlings.

Also, saying the plural (walls) in the NW oath does not matter, while finding parallels in unrelated parts of the text (which I am fine with) is inconsistent. One cannot just pick and choose. All parts of the text are important, but the oath of the NW is particularly important for every theory about the Others.

[Modesty Lannister]

I've noticed your excellent criticism here, as well as elsewhere. Perhaps it was the Astronomy thread? I think it was... Anyway, I'd appreciate your unflinching stare over at my Hierarchy of the Others thread when you have the time. My angle does not utilize Craster, nor crabs, yet I've arrived at the same conclusion as Evolett here. All words need not be kind :cheers:

Thanks for the vote of confidence when it comes to an unflinching stare of my avatar. Lol. I will read you thread and let you know what I think (although I think I have already read it, but hey .. maybe my memory is gone).

[LmL]

Lesser men may wither under that unflinching gaze.

[Voice]

I would be very cautious with Old Nan's tales. Just compare what she says about the wildlings with the actual wildlings.

Also, saying the plural (walls) in the NW oath does not matter, while finding parallels in unrelated parts of the text (which I am fine with) is inconsistent. One cannot just pick and choose. All parts of the text are important, but the oath of the NW is particularly important for every theory about the Others.

Unflinching indeed! LOL I didn't mean the mention of "walls" in the vow doesn't matter at all, only that it doesn't really alter this particular theory of Evolett's one way or the other. There may well be other walls beyond this one... I'd say the curtain of light Bran looked beyond would count ;)

Thanks for the vote of confidence when it comes to an unflinching stare of my avatar. Lol. I will read you thread and let you know what I think (although I think I have already read it, but hey .. maybe my memory is gone).

Please do! It's fairly new, but you may well have seen it... In any case, there have only been one or two critical comments over the course of 12 or so pages, and those were easily countered. My parry was almost lazy ;) As much as I like building the theory higher among like-minds, hearty debate is equally rewarding.

[Voice]

@Voice of the First Men

Just shared an idea in your thread and came back here to find your post. That rearranged quote is very intriguing and kind of relates to your thoughts on children not being raised as wights.

Old Nan's tales suggest that the Others feed their dead servants on the flesh of human children. As far as we know, wights don't eat. Who are these foemen and do they form part of the hierarchy? You've got me thinking here. This might mean a revision.

Thanks for the Dunk and Egg quote. I've not read any of the novellas because I haven't been able to get my hands on any English copies, not even from that large internet bookstore.. There are copies in German available (I live in Germany) but I refuse to read a translation. Most subtlety and hidden meaning simply gets lost in a translation, it's quite appalling. I read the first Harry Potter in both languages and swore never again to read translated works if possible. This is a big problem on German boards. Discussions surrounding ASOIAF tend to remain superficial or stagnate and fans often refer to English texts to support their theories. I'm waiting rather impatiently for the collection due later this year..

Edit:

Something just occurred to me concerning what you wrote:

Coming to think of it, Ramsey's bitches are very unruly. They seldom exhibit discipline and are often left to do what they like. Fighting over bones and sausages, killing other dogs without being called back by the handler (Ben Bones, I think). It appears they are allowed to give in to their natural instincts. Yes, I agree that they lack adequate training.

We must always remain open to new realities, and I remain so, but I think the foemen were simply Ancient Others mounted on Ice Spiders...scuttling up the Wall like, erm... spiders :D

:cheers: on Dunk and Egg, the quote suits your needs more than mine, but it clearly evokes Ice Spider imagery enough for the both of us. I hope you find an english copy. I've heard tell of pdf files that might be found on the interwebs, if you dig around enough...

:cheers: on instincts as well. But I still like your training yard analogy for the prologue. It makes complete sense to me.

[LmL]

My parry was almost lazy

I see what you did there

[Voice]

I see what you did there

:D details, LmL, details....

[StannisForKing299AL]

Very strange theory. But it works, definitely worth reading. So it makes a change from a lot of theories! :)

Bravo!

[King Tyrion XX]

Now that is an interesting OP!

Evolett you'd feel right at home over in Heresy. Please do stop by :cheers:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/126961-heresy-162/

[LmL]

Quite honestly this whole line of inquiry is really damn creepy. If one of these spider crabs jumps on someone's face and lays and egg in their stomach I am OUTTA HERE.

[Modesty Lannister]

Unflinching indeed! LOL I didn't mean the mention of "walls" in the vow doesn't matter at all, only that it doesn't really alter this particular theory of Evolett's one way or the other. There may well be other walls beyond this one... I'd say the curtain of light Bran looked beyond would count ;)

Please do! It's fairly new, but you may well have seen it... In any case, there have only been one or two critical comments over the course of 12 or so pages, and those were easily countered. My parry was almost lazy ;) As much as I like building the theory higher among like-minds, hearty debate is equally rewarding.

I read your theory and I plan to answer with my own. I could answer on your thread, but it would be just too darn long. So, I will post the link on your thread when I'm done. Then our roles will reverse and you can chill my bones with your unflinching stare although no one does it better than Modesty Blaise. After all her training Arya will never reach the hight of Modesty's skills. Lol.

[Voice]

Quite honestly this whole line of inquiry is really damn creepy. If one of these spider crabs jumps on someone's face and lays and egg in their stomach I am OUTTA HERE.

The possibilities are endless. The only thing that truly sounds unlikely to me, it's that we'll never see them scuttling up the Wall [emoji317]

I read your theory and I plan to answer with my own. I could answer on your thread, but it would be just too darn long. So, I will post the link on your thread when I'm done. Then our roles will reverse and you can chill my bones with your unflinching stare although no one does it better than Modesty Blaise. After all her training Arya will never reach the hight of Modesty's skills. Lol.

:cheers: sounds good

[Voice]

Another quote for your angle Evolett... the rosetta stone that bridges the gap between food-porn, and battle-forces. There's even mention of a sister and stew :D

ADWD Jon VII:

He wondered how many men old Crowfood would bring to the fray, and how many swords Arnolf Karstark would be able to conjure up. Half the Umbers would be across the field with Whoresbane, fighting beneath the flayed man of the Dreadfort, and the greater part of the strength of both houses had gone south with Robb, never to return. Even ruined, Winterfell itself would confer a considerable advantage on whoever held it. Robert Baratheon would have seen that at once and moved swiftly to secure the castle, with the forced marches and midnight rides for which he had been famous. Would his brother be as bold?

Not likely. Stannis was a deliberate commander, and his host was a half-digested stew of clansmen, southron knights, king's men and queen's men, salted with a few northern lords. He should move on Winterfell swiftly, or not at all, Jon thought. It was not his place to advise the king, but …

He glanced at the letter again. I will save your sister if I can. A surprisingly tender sentiment from Stannis, though undercut by that final, brutal if I can and the addendum and find a better match for her than Ramsay Snow. But what if Arya was not there to be saved? What if Lady Melisandre's flames had told it true? Could his sister truly have escaped such captors? How would she do that? Arya was always quick and clever, but in the end she's just a little girl, and Roose Bolton is not the sort who would be careless with a prize of such great worth.

[LmL]

Another quote for your angle Evolett... the rosetta stone that bridges the gap between food-porn, and battle-forces. There's even mention of a sister and stew :D

ADWD Jon VII:

He wondered how many men old Crowfood would bring to the fray, and how many swords Arnolf Karstark would be able to conjure up. Half the Umbers would be across the field with Whoresbane, fighting beneath the flayed man of the Dreadfort, and the greater part of the strength of both houses had gone south with Robb, never to return. Even ruined, Winterfell itself would confer a considerable advantage on whoever held it. Robert Baratheon would have seen that at once and moved swiftly to secure the castle, with the forced marches and midnight rides for which he had been famous. Would his brother be as bold?

Not likely. Stannis was a deliberate commander, and his host was a half-digested stew of clansmen, southron knights, king's men and queen's men, salted with a few northern lords. He should move on Winterfell swiftly, or not at all, Jon thought. It was not his place to advise the king, but …

He glanced at the letter again. I will save your sister if I can. A surprisingly tender sentiment from Stannis, though undercut by that final, brutal if I can and the addendum and find a better match for her than Ramsay Snow. But what if Arya was not there to be saved? What if Lady Melisandre's flames had told it true? Could his sister truly have escaped such captors? How would she do that? Arya was always quick and clever, but in the end she's just a little girl, and Roose Bolton is not the sort who would be careless with a prize of such great worth.

I love how fucking deep you guys are going on this. I want to fan the flames of pattern-cognition to equal out for all the naysayers. BOOO, naysayers. Everything has a double meaning.. that’s if it doesn’t have a triple meaning and if you mess wit us, we will prove that your MOM was a secret Targaryen, and that you’re Tyrion’s cousin. Woot.