[tWoW, Alayne I spoilers] Brotherhood of Winged Knights

[aryagonnakill#2]

Quentyn Kartell, I would really enjoy seeing her do that, maybe she gives Lyn her favor.

[Whitering]

If Sansa was smart she would give to Lyn, she already knows he's not into chicks, so it's a safe bet, he'll probably win anyway, which makes her look good, and it puts him slightly more on her side, and still denies Harry her favour while not making him overly jealous.

[Harry the Hair]

If Sansa was smart she would give to Lyn, she already knows he's not into chicks, so it's a safe bet, he'll probably win anyway, which makes her look good, and it puts him slightly more on her side, and still denies Harry her favour while not making him overly jealous.

Would it be smart to give it to someone that is sure to beat Harry? If Harry loses, his pride might get hurt and as Sansa knows, young men born in to nobility don't take kindly to being humiliated (see Joff).

I think it would be smarter to give to someone he is sure to beat, say Ser Wallace Waynwood. By giving her favor to Ser Wallace she gets to show everyone how forgiving and nice she is. If Harry wins her favor from Wallace then he definitely gets an ego boost and a false sense of accomplishment.

Furthermore, this choice would match Petyr's advice "Tease him, to pique his pride. If he seems to be responding, tell him that you are feeling faint, and ask him to take you outside for a breath of fresh air. No knight could refuse such a request from a fair maiden.”

In short, if Harry wins he gets to strut around the courtyard like a peacock and everyone is happy (except Ser Wallace...) If by some miracle he loses, he can't really vent his frustration against Alayne or Wallace because he needs to remain in good terms with the son of his Patron.

Sansa's thought process in terms of who will get her favor should be very interesting and indicative of how she has progressed in playing The Game.

[Ramsays Fleyed Lips]

I'm with Bemused. I don't think Little Finger loved Cat. I think that's part of his game to play on Sansa's loyalty and trust. He did make Cat's life a living Hell at the end and by extension, Sansa's as well. He's using Sansa to get Harry out of the picture so he can attain absolute control over the Vale. He's got a long game for Sweet Robin, too and it isn't to see the boy grow into a happy healthy well adjusted young man. Left to his own devices, LF would discard Sansa easily once her purpose is served. What struck me most about the Alayne chapter was Sansa musing that the tournament was her idea and taking internal credit for doing something she's proud of. She hasn't had enough of that at all. I think she's playing LF's game, but she was raised too well to put up with price gouging food during famine. That's the sort of thing that prevents Lord LF from being accepted as one of the noble guys. He's a jackass. Everyone knows it.

[Hos the Hostage]

IMO I don't think he wants any of those. He already had the Vale but killed Lysa. He could've killed Robert instead if he truly wanted the Vale. He cant have the Riverlands. That's being held through Edmure Tully and Roslin Frey. If they both die before child birth, the Riverlands go to Brynden Tully. This is why finding the blackfish is so important to the Freys. She definitely can't have the North unless a Tyrion dies and she restakes whatever little claim she may have. What she can do is unite the three "Kings". But one King having control over all three I think is not probable.

BF may take and hold Riverrun by force, but not by law. As Alys Karstark says, "a daughter comes before an uncle". If Edmure, and his son dies, the Tully inheritance is in the order

Bran>Rickon>Sansa>Arya>Robert Arryn.

Bran, Rickon and Arya are believed dead. That leaves Sansa and Robert, both under LF's power.

But then Robb has most probably disowned Sansa and Arya, but that Will is missing.

[Túrin the Turambar]

But then Robb has most probably disowned Sansa and Arya, but that Will is missing.

I don't think this really counts since this was about the Stark-side inheritance to back the claim of Jon who has nothing to do with the Tullys at all. So I think that in that respect Robb's declaration wouldn't matter ( + it could of course be questioned as illegitimate since he was only a self-declared king and not a "real" one)

[Quentyn Kartell]

BF may take and hold Riverrun by force, but not by law. As Alys Karstark says, "a daughter comes before an uncle". If Edmure, and his son dies, the Tully inheritance is in the order

Bran>Rickon>Sansa>Arya>Robert Arryn.

Bran, Rickon and Arya are believed dead. That leaves Sansa and Robert, both under LF's power.

But then Robb has most probably disowned Sansa and Arya, but that Will is missing.

I think Robert would still come before Sansa and Arya. Notice she said daughter and not child.

But my point is that in the current situation... Sansa is already married off to Tyrion. Cersei already declared them both fugitives. A fake Arya being married to Ramsay. Robert being hidden away at the Vale, the next in line would be Brynden Tully.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Robert does not come before Sansa and Arya, Roberts mother Lysa is younger than Catlyn, that means all of Catlyns children come before any of Lysas.

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

I'm really shocked to learn that this was the controversial chapter! What was controversial about it?

Anyway, in terms of what's going to happen - I think it'll probably be something to do with either hurting Sweet Robin, or Harry. Sansa will probably be complicit in whatever happens, which might explain why the chapter could be controversial. Maybe..?

I'm really interested to see who Sansa gives her favour to. I agree that it will probably be a sign of her becoming a real player in the game.

[Hos the Hostage]

I'm really shocked to learn that this was the controversial chapter! What was controversial about it?

Anyway, in terms of what's going to happen - I think it'll probably be something to do with either hurting Sweet Robin, or Harry. Sansa will probably be complicit in whatever happens, which might explain why the chapter could be controversial. Maybe..?

I'm really interested to see who Sansa gives her favour to. I agree that it will probably be a sign of her becoming a real player in the game.

It was expected this chapter may upset SanSan shippers because Sansa was contemplating marriage, love etc as a grown woman but without thinking about the Hound at all.

[Isobel Harper]

I'm really shocked to learn that this was the controversial chapter! What was controversial about it?

Anyway, in terms of what's going to happen - I think it'll probably be something to do with either hurting Sweet Robin, or Harry. Sansa will probably be complicit in whatever happens, which might explain why the chapter could be controversial. Maybe..?

I'm really interested to see who Sansa gives her favour to. I agree that it will probably be a sign of her becoming a real player in the game.

I believe the chapter's controversy concerned a development that we were to going to be seeing in Sansa. Sansa seems very trusting of LF in this chapter, whereas she was still quite suspicious of him in AFFC. If Sansa develops some form of Stockholm Syndrome towards Petyr - develops an emotional or even romantic attachment towards him - this chapter would be the beginning of that "relationship."

[Colonel Green]

I believe the chapter's controversy concerned a development that we were to going to be seeing in Sansa. Sansa seems very trusting of LF in this chapter, whereas she was still quite suspicious of him in AFFC. If Sansa develops some form of Stockholm Syndrome towards Petyr - develops an emotional or even romantic attachment towards him - this chapter would be the beginning of that "relationship."

No, the controversy was the lack of mention of the Hound. Elio explained that.

[JonisHenryTudor]

That was the controversial chapter?

I read through it quickly, it was mildly interesting, but I did not gather what could possibly be so controversial about it...

[JonisHenryTudor]

No, the controversy was the lack of mention of the Hound. Elio explained that.

I missed that. Link?

[Isobel Harper]

No, the controversy was the lack of mention of the Hound. Elio explained that.

Oh? I know Elio explained that the sample chapter was the controversial one, but I didn't know he said why.

Honestly though, is the Hound really that important? But then again, I don't get "SanSan" either.

[The Emberheart]

Though it would be ironic if this brotherhood of winged knights turns out to be an (un)intended backdoor leading to the death of Sweetrobin. Infiltration, incompetence, take your pick.

[Hos the Hostage]

Though it would be ironic if this brotherhood of winged knights turns out to be an (un)intended backdoor leading to the death of Sweetrobin. Infiltration, incompetence, take your pick.

I never considered that aspect. Ironic indeed! :)

[Harry the Hair]

Though it would be ironic if this brotherhood of winged knights turns out to be an (un)intended backdoor leading to the death of Sweetrobin. Infiltration, incompetence, take your pick.

Ha! And the #1 suspect would be Harry since he'd gain the most from his cousin's death.

“He calls me cousin, but he’s just waiting for me to die so he can take the Eyrie. He thinks I don’t know, but I do.”

[Annara Snow]

BF may take and hold Riverrun by force, but not by law. As Alys Karstark says, "a daughter comes before an uncle". If Edmure, and his son dies, the Tully inheritance is in the order

Bran>Rickon>Sansa>Arya>Robert Arryn.

Bran, Rickon and Arya are believed dead. That leaves Sansa and Robert, both under LF's power.

But then Robb has most probably disowned Sansa and Arya, but that Will is missing.

Robb's will has nothing to do with the inheritance of Riverrun, since he wasn't its lord, Edmure Tully is.

Anyway, Robb may or may not have disinherited Sansa, in order to stop Tyrion from using her claim (but I can imagine other clauses you could put there instead of disinheriting her, or he could have just simply named Jon as his heir rather than disinheriting anyone), but he certainly didn't disinherit Arya. Why would he do that? She wasn't married to a Lannister. He believed she was dead, and if he believed she was alive, he would have no reason to disinherit her.

It was expected this chapter may upset SanSan shippers because Sansa was contemplating marriage, love etc as a grown woman but without thinking about the Hound at all.

...Just as she did countless times before in the first three books?

It's not like she's ever contemplating marriage to Sandor. That has never even crossed her mind. She's thought about marrying Joffrey, Loras, Willas, heck, she's even thought about marrying Tommen at one point (without an ounce of romantic or sexual thoughts, needless to say!),. Because marrying people of high status are realistic options for a girl of her status.

Sandor comes up in terms of emotions, romance and sexuality. Not marriage, at least not consciously, which for highborn women and men in Westeros mostly has little to do with romance or desire and everything to do with politics, lands and status. When he comes up in her thoughts in terms of marriage, it's only in subconscious and symbolic terms (keeping his bloody cloak and covering herself with it, dreaming of him in her marriage bed).

Elio's way of thinking seems rather bizarre to me. He called it "sudden burgeoning of Sansa's sexuality" or something, when in fact, I didn't see much at all in this chapter in terms of Sansa's sexuality, compared to some of the previous chapters, only a lot in terms of Sansa using her charm and wit for political purposes.

What's even weirder is that he had this idea that people who "ship" Sansa and Sandor expect him to be mentioned in every single one of her chapters and would get upset if he is constantly mentioned. Come on, really? Is there anyone who actually expects that?

[Robb_Warged]

No, the controversy was the lack of mention of the Hound. Elio explained that.

I think it was immature of whoever it was that made the controversial remark. Sandor not being mentioned is merely disheartening to SanSan fans and that is it. A very overblown description of the chapter and very irresponsible to make a remark like that. For someone to have early access to a project, that won't release for years, to showboat about being able to read some of it and then scare everyone with words like controversial (considering the controversy was JUST no mention of Sandor), is a very immature thing to do

I DO think it feels like a retcon and poor writing that this chapter does not mention Sandor. That feels like GRRM spent 4 books planting Sansan seeds here and there and then abruptly decided to just drop that. You can see when sideplots get dropped in stories and I'm okay with that, but sometimes you can write things out and drop directions side-plots were headed for more gracefully.

After Sansa's last 3 or so inner monologues or thoughts involving romance mentioning Sandor, it just feels like poor writing for Sandor to not be mentioned once in the chapter

Annara brings up a good point that no one should expect Sandor to encompass all thoughts Sansa has, including romantic ones. I do find it odd she didn't think of him though. In this chapter isn't she thinking about marriage and suitors? Stuff like that? Does seem odd Sandor wouldn't cross her mind at all when Feast showed us her thoughts immediately went to him during discussion of what goes on in wedding beds. This is what has me feeling like we've experienced an abruptly dropped love story; a retcon.

Of course all of this needs to be considered in the context that this is just one chapter of the book.