[tWoW, Alayne I spoilers] Brotherhood of Winged Knights

[Harry the Hair]

Sandor not being mentioned is merely disheartening to SanSan fans and that is it.

I DO think it feels like a retcon and poor writing that this chapter does not mention Sandor. That feels like GRRM spent 4 books planting Sansan seeds here and there and then abruptly decided to just drop that. You can see when sideplots get dropped in stories and I'm okay with that, but sometimes you can write things out and drop directions side-plots were headed for more gracefully.

I`m a huge Sansan fan and I still loved that chapter. I actually didn't find Sandor's absence odd. This is a set up chapter where GRRM is focusing on presenting characters that will be important within the Vale plot, basically he needs to introduce a whole new lot of pawns and players, new scenery and more importantly, a new atmosphere. To diverge from that and bring up things from the past might set off the mood that he's going for.

He also spent quite a bit of time describing a more scheming side of Sansa that connects her to LF. She did mention Tyrion though when Sweetrobin brought up the possibility of marriage. She associates marriages and betrothals with Tyrion and Joff, and kisses with the Hound. Since no real (lips on lips) type of kissing occurred, I didn't expect her to think about Sandor. I don't think GRRM can just flat out drop their subplot since he did say that the unkiss will eventually mean something, until he reveals what that is he'll keep stringing the two characters along.

I'm sure she'll remember him during the tourney, or when Harry's grubby hands will begin to reach for the laces of her gown.

[Robb_Warged]

I`m a huge Sansan fan and I still loved that chapter. I actually didn't find Sandor's absence odd. This is a set up chapter where GRRM is focusing on presenting characters that will be important within the Vale plot, basically he needs to introduce a whole new lot of pawns and players, new scenery and more importantly, a new atmosphere. To diverge from that and bring up things from the past might set off the mood that he's going for.

He also spent quite a bit of time describing a more scheming side of Sansa that connects her to LF. She did mention Tyrion though when Sweetrobin brought up the possibility of marriage. She associates marriages and betrothals with Tyrion and Joff, and kisses with the Hound. Since no real (lips on lips) type of kissing occurred, I didn't expect her to think about Sandor. I don't think GRRM can just flat out drop their subplot since he did say that the unkiss will eventually mean something, until he reveals what that is he'll keep stringing the two characters along.

I'm sure she'll remember him during the tourney, or when Harry's grubby hands will begin to reach for the laces of her gown.

You make a great point. I forgot he said the unkiss will be addressed again in the story

[voodooqueen126]

I think it was immature of whoever it was that made the controversial remark. Sandor not being mentioned is merely disheartening to SanSan fans and that is it. A very overblown description of the chapter and very irresponsible to make a remark like that. For someone to have early access to a project, that won't release for years, to showboat about being able to read some of it and then scare everyone with words like controversial (considering the controversy was JUST no mention of Sandor), is a very immature thing to do

I DO think it feels like a retcon and poor writing that this chapter does not mention Sandor. That feels like GRRM spent 4 books planting Sansan seeds here and there and then abruptly decided to just drop that. You can see when sideplots get dropped in stories and I'm okay with that, but sometimes you can write things out and drop directions side-plots were headed for more gracefully.

After Sansa's last 3 or so inner monologues or thoughts involving romance mentioning Sandor, it just feels like poor writing for Sandor to not be mentioned once in the chapter

Annara brings up a good point that no one should expect Sandor to encompass all thoughts Sansa has, including romantic ones. I do find it odd she didn't think of him though. In this chapter isn't she thinking about marriage and suitors? Stuff like that? Does seem odd Sandor wouldn't cross her mind at all when Feast showed us her thoughts immediately went to him during discussion of what goes on in wedding beds. This is what has me feeling like we've experienced an abruptly dropped love story; a retcon.

Of course all of this needs to be considered in the context that this is just one chapter of the book.

From what I can understand, a lot of Fanboys dislike SanSan, and SanSan shippers are considered silly girls on par with AGOT Sansa.

I therefore seriously hope that GRRM hasn't dropped SanSan because of some stupid fanboys, who should be made to feel uncomfortable.

[Whitering]

There don't have to be shippers because Sansa is young, and it's not just young women that have crushes and idealized visions of people they know. I am assuming other young men besides me had the same experience. If she never sees Sandor again she may fondly remember him nonetheless.

[voodooqueen126]

There don't have to be shippers because Sansa is young, and it's not just young women that have crushes and idealized visions of people they know. I am assuming other young men besides me had the same experience. If she never sees Sandor again she may fondly remember him nonetheless.

Exactly. This is what irritates about the reactions to SanSan: they act as if only teenaged girls had crushes, that having crushes is a sign of being like a teenage girl, and that teenage girls are inherently unworthy and stupid.

Needless to say unless you're asexual or a member of a Gnostic sect*, this is an inherently hypocritical position to take.

*Gnostic sects such as the Cathars believed that the world was the realm of the devil, and that therefore reproduction was evil.

[aryagonnakill#2]

^Just because they believe that doesn't mean they didn't have crushes. Like you said, unless they were asexual its basically impossible for them to have not.

[GinesthoiOfIce]

Sansa's being finally happy with where she is, is comfortable with being Alayne. The whole chapter was about her identity and pretending to be a bastard : She uses it to justify her not being worthy of marrying SweetRobin, she is scorned by Harry because of it, she tells Myranda her "father" arranged the betrothal, she meets the Mad Mouse... This is just too much for it not to blow up very soon and in a very dramatic manner. She will almost certainly be revealed as Sansa Stark, in front of the whole Vale. SweetRobin's sudden awareness and assertiveness makes me think he might pressure Sansa into marrying him in front of everyone after she's revealed. Her "Would that I had wings" line in AFFC would come into effect as SweetRobin's guard would then protect her as well.

Mya Stone's presence is interesting, too. She is, after all, a Baratheon bastard and that's going to come into play, I think. There was no particular need for GRRM to make the Vale's "mulemaster" a natural daughter of Robert Baratheon, nor to put her into contact with Sansa and have both hold respect for each other. Littlefinger, as of this chapter, has three minors with enormous potential or real claims close to him: Sansa (North and Riverlands), SweetRobin (Vale) and Mya (Stormlands). That's almost the exact makings of the first rebellion. Mya's claim is pretty weak as a bastard, but she was Robert's first child, the Baratheon family is not in the best state and the Vale knows Mya. This time around, it might be that a Stone-Baratheon will help a Stark :)

[Lion of Lorath]

1b. Sweetrobin gets really sick or dying. Suspected poisoning. Someone gets the blame. Or Petyr gets killed.

Sweetrobin is gonna die. And probably soon.

1c. Ser Shadrich kidnaps Sansa and takes her to Sisterton/KL/White Harbor. I believe Wyman Manderly have spies in some parts of the Vale.

This seems unlikely. Too many characters introduced and fleshed out in the Vale to suddenly leave them all, unless there will be another POV character there right away.

2f. Blackfish

Maybe the most likely of this list of knights.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Why is it that people are so convinced that Shadrich will be successful at kidnapping Sansa? Even if we ignore the huge obstacles Shadrich has to overcome to kidnap Sansa what is the point of this storyline. Not only would it be repetitive, but it also stalls Sansa's character development. What I could see happening is Shadrich attempt to kidnap Sansa, but fail at it and because of that he accidentally expose Alayne's real identity. Now that can further the storyline and Sansa's character development. It would be interesting how the Vale would react if they knew that Ned's daughter is in their midst.

[Harry the Hair]

Why is it that people are so convinced that Shadrich will be successful at kidnapping Sansa? Even if we ignore the huge obstacles Shadrich has to overcome to kidnap Sansa what is the point of this storyline. Not only would it be repetitive, but it also stalls Sansa's character development. What I could see happening is Shadrich attempt to kidnap Sansa, but fail at it and because of that he accidentally expose Alayne's real identity. Now that can further the storyline and Sansa's character development. It would be interesting how the Vale would react if they knew that Ned's daughter is in their midst.

Indeed. Plus, if money is Shadrich's number one concern then he could easily be bought over to LF's side. My guess is that his character will get the same ending that Ser Dontos got, only this time it would be at Sansa's orders.

[Woman of War]

From what I can understand, a lot of Fanboys dislike SanSan, and SanSan shippers are considered silly girls on par with AGOT Sansa.

I therefore seriously hope that GRRM hasn't dropped SanSan because of some stupid fanboys, who should be made to feel uncomfortable.

Ummm, no, there are a lot of female fans who dislike the SanSan fandom approach.

And it is perfectly possible to find Sandor interesting as character without hoping for any Sansan love story.

Why is this a gender question at all? Fans of whatever gender have SanSan hopes or they don't, or they even dislike the whole idea.

[Lord Freypie]

Why is this a gender question at all? Fans of whatever gender have SanSan hopes or they don't, or they even dislike the whole idea.

I guess it's because some fans made SanRyon a gender question, and (after discarding SanFinger as too creepy) see SanSan as the main other option.

Like if Sansa couldn't find a less problematic partner than those three.

[the conquering bastard 25]

Oh yes Robbs will does effect Riverrun and its lands. The Riverlands hve been incorporated the northern realm. If Jon is now King of the North, hes also king of the Riverlands.
The Blackfish said he'd continue his kings war, why do that if the riverlands dint belong now.to.the north? The Trident lords swore fealty to the North. He'll the North is kind of.in the position it's in because it rode to help the Tully's. Sry but if Jon takes the job if king then Riverrun is his to.do with as he would.

 
Robb's will has nothing to do with the inheritance of Riverrun, since he wasn't its lord, Edmure Tully is.
 
Anyway, Robb may or may not have disinherited Sansa, in order to stop Tyrion from using her claim (but I can imagine other clauses you could put there instead of disinheriting her, or he could have just simply named Jon as his heir rather than disinheriting anyone), but he certainly didn't disinherit Arya. Why would he do that? She wasn't married to a Lannister. He believed she was dead, and if he believed she was alive, he would have no reason to disinherit her.
 
 
...Just as she did countless times before in the first three books? 
 
It's not like she's ever contemplating marriage to Sandor. That has never even crossed her mind. She's thought about marrying Joffrey, Loras, Willas, heck, she's even thought about marrying Tommen at one point (without an ounce of romantic or sexual thoughts, needless to say!),. Because marrying people of high status are realistic options for a girl of her status. 
 
Sandor comes up in terms of emotions, romance and sexuality.  Not marriage,  at least not consciously, which for highborn women and men in Westeros mostly has little to do with romance or desire and everything to do with politics, lands and status. When he comes up in her thoughts in terms of marriage, it's only in subconscious and symbolic terms (keeping his bloody cloak and covering herself with it, dreaming of him in her marriage bed).
 
Elio's way of thinking seems rather bizarre to me. He called it "sudden burgeoning of Sansa's sexuality" or something, when in fact, I didn't see much at all in this chapter in terms of Sansa's sexuality, compared to some of the previous chapters, only a lot in terms of Sansa using her charm and wit for political purposes.
 
What's even weirder is that he had this idea that people who "ship" Sansa and Sandor expect him to be mentioned in every single one of her chapters and would get upset if he is constantly mentioned. Come on, really? Is there anyone who actually expects that?

[Logicsbane]

I still have a hard time believing Littlefinger, who was so in love with Cat and is undoubtably in love with Sansa would willingly give her hand to another and sit there in the same castle while the other is bedding her on a wedding night. No way. Not everthing is as it seems with Littlefinger. He went through a lot to get a hold of Sansa and out of the clutches of the Lannisters, risking himself in the process. I think he is obsessed with her and is doing a whole lot of this pagentry, smoke and mirrors for the sole purpose of keeping her distracted from his real intentions in the end. He wants her for himself and he will take her birthright with it if he can but it is her he wants. Make no mistake about it.

Disagree....he might be attracted to Sansa but he isn't obsessed, she is just another pawn in his end game. Doesn't mean he doesn't genuinely care about her, he's just somewhat incapable of caring that much. Did his supposed love for Cat prompt him to do a damn thing that could be considered selfless?

[Colonel Green]

Oh yes Robbs will does effect Riverrun and its lands. The Riverlands hve been incorporated the northern realm. If Jon is now King of the North, hes also king of the Riverlands.
The Blackfish said he'd continue his kings war, why do that if the riverlands dint belong now.to.the north? The Trident lords swore fealty to the North. He'll the North is kind of.in the position it's in because it rode to help the Tully's. Sry but if Jon takes the job if king then Riverrun is his to.do with as he would.

No, you misunderstand.  Robb's will relates to the succession to kingship.  It has nothing to do with the succession to Riverrun (as far as we know).  Sansa's claim to Riverrun comes through her mother.

[TheReal_Rebel]

What I want to know is why everyone seems to forget that Bryden Blackfish, having escaped Riverrun, and known to all the major players in the Vale, is never mentioned as likely to show up there?

For years he was the Knight of the Gate, now, in need of sanctuary, the BF would, no doubt, make an appeal to his grand nephew Robin. Robin would also likely be glad and relieved to see him. Robin and his lords, might see benefits in aiding the BF in re-taking Riverrun, which is Lord Robin's mother's ancestral home.

Thus, tossing LF's carefully plotted plans up in the air.

No, you misunderstand.  Robb's will relates to the succession to kingship.  It has nothing to do with the succession to Riverrun (as far as we know).  Sansa's claim to Riverrun comes through her mother.

Edmure and his pregnant wife are still alive. It is unlikely Sansa will inherit Riverrun unless this changes.

[voodooqueen126]

 

I guess it's because some fans made SanRyon a gender question, and (after discarding SanFinger as too creepy) see SanSan as the main other option.

Like if Sansa couldn't find a less problematic partner than those three.

It's TySan. Because in Tyrion/Sansa shipping the emphasis is on Tyrion, with Sansa as a reward for his nice guy behaviour.

SanSan is much more egalitarian, in that, despite his age, she has status and education, so thinks are mutual (certainly it exists in her head as well as his), potentially if Sansa ends up powerful in her own right, she would have power over him, even he were her husband.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Why is it that people are so convinced that Shadrich will be successful at kidnapping Sansa? Even if we ignore the huge obstacles Shadrich has to overcome to kidnap Sansa what is the point of this storyline. Not only would it be repetitive, but it also stalls Sansa's character development. What I could see happening is Shadrich attempt to kidnap Sansa, but fail at it and because of that he accidentally expose Alayne's real identity. Now that can further the storyline and Sansa's character development. It would be interesting how the Vale would react if they knew that Ned's daughter is in their midst. 

 

1- Shadrich seems to be fairly competent. He should be able to pull off a simple snatch-and-run. However, there's no way he's getting out of the Vale afterwards though a port, so he would have to cross the MotM. Enter the Mountain Clans, in whom GRRM invested quite a bit of time setting up.

 

2 - This scenario provides huge opportunities for Sansa to develop and shine. Chella and Timmett know Sansa; she should be able to pull off some fast-talking diplomacy. Timmett may well have Arryn blood, and be ahead of Harry in the line of succession. Sansa could compare the status of the Vale Mountain Clans with that of the Northern Clans, and show the Valers that they could improve their position. The Mountain Clans are Old God followers, and Sansa can play on that link with her Stark heritage. Anything that can get that girl near a heart tree is fundamentally good - Bran will be looking to contact her. And she still needs to develop her long-ignored warging capability.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

 

1- Shadrich seems to be fairly competent. He should be able to pull off a simple snatch-and-run. However, there's no way he's getting out of the Vale afterwards though a port, so he would have to cross the MotM. Enter the Mountain Clans, in whom GRRM invested quite a bit of time setting up.

 

2 - This scenario provides huge opportunities for Sansa to develop and shine. Chella and Timmett know Sansa; she should be able to pull off some fast-talking diplomacy. Timmett may well have Arryn blood, and be ahead of Harry in the line of succession. Sansa could compare the status of the Vale Mountain Clans with that of the Northern Clans, and show the Valers that they could improve their position. The Mountain Clans are Old God followers, and Sansa can play on that link with her Stark heritage. Anything that can get that girl near a heart tree is fundamentally good - Bran will be looking to contact her. And she still needs to develop her long-ignored warging capability.

 

You do raise some interesting plot lines, but honestly who is to say things will go well for Sansa if she ends up interacting the Mountain Clans? It has been established quite clearly that Sansa does not do well in overly physical situations. I simply don't like the idea of Sansa being repeatedly victimized.