addicted to snow Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Wow, you guys/girls don't see any connection between the following:Jon seeing his refection in the ice like 3 times.Jon's description in Bran's Coma Dream.The great effort that GRRM went to in ADWDs to describe how cold the Ice Cells are, to describe the accumulation of snow over the doors to the Ice Cells & to make sure that the reader knew that doors were freshly cleaned from snow just prior to Jon's death.The "minor but still Significant plot point" that GRRM says is related to the Wall blocking warg communications.All you have to do is connect the dots & you can see that Jon will be frozen in the Ice Cells for a prolonged period of time... --To say that "The Wall reflects Jon, and he reflects the magic in the Wall," Has GRRM ever discussed magic being reflected? is there any basis for this idea... Jon has seen his reflection 2-3 times, so that is pretty heavy foreshadowing something, wouldn't you say? Is it foreshadowing that he will be frozen or that Jon & the wall reflect each other's magic? I'm sticking with Jon being frozen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Wow, you guys/girls don't see any connection between the following: Jon seeing his refection in the ice like 3 times. Jon's description in Bran's Coma Dream. The great effort that GRRM went to in ADWDs to describe how cold the Ice Cells are, to describe the accumulation of snow over the doors to the Ice Cells & to make sure that the reader knew that doors were freshly cleaned from snow just prior to Jon's death. The "minor but still Significant plot point" that GRRM says is related to the Wall blocking warg communications. All you have to do is connect the dots & you can see that Jon will be frozen in the Ice Cells for a prolonged period of time... -- To say that "The Wall reflects Jon, and he reflects the magic in the Wall," Has GRRM ever discussed magic being reflected? is there any basis for this idea... Jon has seen his reflection 2-3 times, so that is pretty heavy foreshadowing something, wouldn't you say? Is it foreshadowing that he will be frozen or that Jon & the wall reflect each other's magic? I'm sticking with Jon being frozen... ATS in truth i think you are the one missing the connection. I believe very much that Jon will awaken cold as i said i believe 100% that he's the next NK and that Bran's vision not only point to this,but also the possibility he will be colder in possibly evey sense of the word. These ice cells,are the same ice cells the dead Wildlings are in correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 ATS in truth i think you are the one missing the connection. I believe very much that Jon will awaken cold as i said i believe 100% that he's the next NK and that Bran's vision not only point to this,but also the possibility he will be colder in possibly evey sense of the word. These ice cells,are the same ice cells the dead Wildlings are in correct? I would expect that if there is any significance to the cells it would be a matter of his being slung in there as another canary, although as to the business of his growing cold and hard I suspect that this has already happened since Bran's vision is acted out almost word for word in the Jon chapter immediately following it, where we learn that he is sleeping alone and so cold that the memory of warmth has fled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bemused Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Ahem... If I can just digress a little further along the same lines as my previous post... I don't know how much any of this has been discussed on the heresy threads (maybe a lot), but I think there are hints of a couple of things going on that alter my projections quite a bit. Here's my take: So, the magic has it's agenda.. .. and Mance has his - I mentioned my suspicion that he was grooming Jarl for leadership. ... When Mance says of Dalla "it's a wise woman I've found" , I think he uses "wise woman" knowingly, as a title, not just a generality. OTOH, when Mel says, in response to Jon repeating Dalla's "sword without a hilt" maxim, "a wise woman ..." , I think it's unknowing. She has no sense of Dalla as more than the mother of Mance's child. (Though the repetition may be intended to reinforce the idea in the reader's mind.) Just as I see Jarl as Mance's planned successor, I see Val as Dalla's, and have come to doubt more and more that the two women are related at all, but are sisters in a (perhaps) loose sisterhood of wise women, related to, but separate from woods witches. I think they are George's version of the Vala (vǫlvur) , or in the Celtic vein, female druids. Celtic kings relied on druids of both sexes and Norse chieftains relied on the visions of Vala. The Vala could become associated with a particular chief and even marry him in her efforts to further his cause. They were especially good at locating, things , people, propitious locations to give battle. (Jon, never mind asking Mel!) When Mance "met" Dala, I think she was looking for him and knew where to find him.(Just as Val knew where to find Tormund.) The clothes Dalla gave Val have the feel of regalia to me ( mark of a right of passage?) And when Val calls Dalla her sister, it's like Borroq calling Jon "brother". ... Aside : I have some doubt as to whether the baby switch was ever carrried out, but either way, If I'm right about Val, both Mance's son and Craster's are "no kin to her." I think Tormund's in her confidence, and Toregg (Jon is wrong about his designs on Val) .. and the fact that Val left Tormund's camp wearing her white garb, riding side by side with Jon, no doubt spoke volumes to all the wildlings. (I think all those who are so sure that blood sacrifice is so necessary, should take note that Val would sooner not get bloodstains on the clothes Dalla gave her.) ....I think it carries weight with the wildlings that Jon is now the leader that Val is backing. I could say much more (and have elsewhere), but I'm cutting it short for the purposes of this thread. That's one thing. Another is , what's going on with the other CoTF greenseers ?...(I hope I can articulate this briefly). Some that Bran has seen are still enough in this world to follow him with their eyes. One at least, seems to be trying to form words...There would likely be a language barrier anyway, but language barriers don't count when the communication is in the form of dreams or visions.OK, hold that thought.. Also, after reading TWoIaF, there are obvious signs of schism (political, magical, religious?) among CoTF in the story of the Warg King and so, even if they're all broadly on the same page now , there might still be differing individual opinions, among those still "awake" about what to tell who, when.. or the best way to do it ...And, hold that thought, too.. Now..we don't know how many creatures Bloodraven can skinchange at a time. Is it only one, or more than one? (e.g.,In the TWoW Theon chapter, I'd bet that BR and Bran are each in one raven.) When we see him learning to "fly", Bran senses a presence in one of the ravens he inhabits..can she still prompt the bird to go to certain places? If she was a greenseer and not just a skinchanger, she may not be in a second life, but still active, or at least in the present in the "weirnet". Does this explain the flocks of ravens all seemingly acting of one accord? (I tend to think so.) I think something relating to these questions is going on, not so much in Jon's crypt dreams, but in the dreams where Jon is being urgently wakened by Mormont's raven. I'm not sure BR could be simultaneously influencing Jon's dream and inhabiting the bird trying to wake him. The two occasions where this strikes me are: Jon's wolf dream where Ghost is sensing his siblings while the Moon/Mormont's bird is trying to wake him ..and the black ice/red mist/berserker dream.. I get the feeling that BR (as the raven) is trying to wake Jon before he can possibly learn too much ,too soon .. but then, who is influencing the dreams ? In the first instance, it could be argued that it would not serve the greater good for Jon to be aware of where, exactly, Summer or Nymeria or Shaggy were at the time. It could be a major distraction, or tempt Jon away from what he needed to be doing. Also, it is a wolf dream, yet Jon-in-Ghost, is not just sensing that his siblings are alive , near or far , but is actually getting visuals of their locations .. not just Ghost's.... and Ghost is actually running from the moon. He bares his teeth. His fur bristles. He does not want Jon to wake. Whoever might be influencing Ghost may be headed for the same destination as BR, but wanting to take a different path. In the second instance (black ice/flaming sword), I'm not sure it would be good for Jon to start seeing himself as an Azor Ahai-like figure at that juncture.. and in the second "berserker-like-killing-mode" section of the dream, I have to ask - if that is part of Jon's nature (and I think it is).. if it's a part of his nature that will be useful, make him more formidable in coming battles, would it have been beneficial for Jon to have a sense of it, rationally, at the time of the dream ? We've already seen him say "No, I'm not a wolf.", and probably keep himself from developing his bond with Ghost more fully. Would he then, try to supress this "berserker" attribute, if he knew ? Bloodraven might suspect so. The most obvious occurrance was with Iron Emmett and that was in the practice yard, with blunted weapons...Perhaps it would be best if Jon came to realise it after a real fight, when he would be forced to own it. Yes, he'd still have to learn to manage it as far as possible , but he'd have to see the potential value in it as well, and not just try to shut it out. If there is some ghost present in Ghost, I would think it would be another greenseer and not someone in their second life. Who might it be, I'd like to know.. or from what period in history. For me, this possibility would help explain some of the questions around the finding of the direwolf pups and Ghost's odd behavior during the encounter with Mel ... as well as his susbsequent running off , contrary to Jon's command, after the encounter with Devan. (Ghost's sense of smell featured heavily in both episodes.) Bloodraven probably has a fairly good sense of Mel (better than she has of him), but another greenseer from an altogether different time, might never have encountered anything quite like her. Anyway, all of this is lurking in the back of my mind when considering the implications of the attack on Jon. Putting it together with all of what we know or suspect is going on ... one of the things I'm most sure of is that Ramsay is on his way toward CB and needs to be confronted. There would not be much time to make a counter move, and I think it must be made by Jon. ...I don't think there's anyone else capable of taking control at the Wall (at the moment) and I'm not in the camp that thinks this is when the Others appear and everything goes sideways and inside out. I'm sure GRRM doesn't intend to make things easy for Men, but I do think he wants to give them a fighting chance ... and I think Jon has to be a part of buildling that. I don't see the possibility of a lengthy time out (or time unconscious) for him right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Val & Dalla, I think, are part of the group of people who are collecting Craster's Sacrifices... They are pictured here in the ASOS Illustrated versions... Compare the way that these figures are dressed with the way that Val is dressed when she returns with Tormund... Link below (picture 4)... http://www.richardhescox.com/a-clash-of-kings-gallery.php Asside from that, I';m afraid that we are reading different books... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bemused Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Why do you think that ? Is it all based on this artist's rendering , possibly done without any input from GRRM on their clothing ? What group of "people" (apart from Others) are collecting Craster's sacrifices ?.. We can all be inventive, but shouldn't our speculation have some foundation in the text ? The illustration doesn't fit with any description of the Others found in the text, or with Val .. I can't take you seriously anymore at all if you think that illustration represents this ... Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. ...and I don't believe you do. .. So why not present a text-based argument , if you think Val is an Other ? The usual arguments for this that I'm aware of are pretty flimsy.. but maybe you know of some I've missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 I can't take you seriously anymore at all if you think that illustration represents this ... Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. ??? They are both wearing bleached white clothes & bearskin pelts... Aside from the headgear, they are dressed the same... Fine details like bone fastenings Weirwood pins cannot be discerned from the image... The Image clearly does not depict Others, at least not the Others were introduced to in AGOTs Prologue... & Val is the only person we have seen wearing all white clothing... There is a connection... --- If Val is not connected to these figures in the image, then which characters are connected to them? We know that GRRM writes with tons of foreshadowing, so there has to be a ling between these figures & some character, right??? Unless you want to argue that these figures that Gilly mistook for Others really are Others??? In which case I would point you the description of Others in the GoTs Prologue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bemused Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 You know, I don't mind discussing differences of opinion, or comparing opinions honestly ( Isn't that why we're here?), but I don't think that's what you're doing. They only picture I can see that you might be talking about is the fourth in the right hand column.. correct? the one with the baby in the foreground , and the anguished pair of eyes at the top ? That picture is entitled "The Others" and apart from their garb appearing white ( it's a black and white illustration) bears no relation to any book description of either Val or the Others. GRRM doesn't generally quibble with artists having their own vision. On his own site, he currently features this... http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/ .. which has very little resemblance to any description of Sansa / Alayne's wardrobe, but at least it's meant to be Sansa.(Oh, she's wearing a hairnet..Sansa wore one once..but not a Sansa attired like this.) Yours was not a text based example. It wasn't even an outside link meant to amuse (those can be fun). I won't be wasting any more of my time on this kind of "discussion". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 You know, I don't mind discussing differences of opinion, or comparing opinions honestly ( Isn't that why we're here?), but I don't think that's what you're doing. They only picture I can see that you might be talking about is the fourth in the right hand column.. correct? the one with the baby in the foreground , and the anguished pair of eyes at the top ? That picture is entitled "The Others" and apart from their garb appearing white ( it's a black and white illustration) bears no relation to any book description of either Val or the Others. GRRM doesn't generally quibble with artists having their own vision. On his own site, he currently features this... http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/ .. which has very little resemblance to any description of Sansa / Alayne's wardrobe, but at least it's meant to be Sansa.(Oh, she's wearing a hairnet..Sansa wore one once..but not a Sansa attired like this.) Yours was not a text based example. It wasn't even an outside link meant to amuse (those can be fun). I won't be wasting any more of my time on this kind of "discussion". Yes, the Picture titled "The Others" depicting Gilly's observations of Craster's Son being picked up by what she thinks is "The Others"... This picture is cannon, it was in the books, so I hardly think that the artists just didn't read the description of the Others in the aGOTs Prologue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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