Jon snows death

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

Jon is practically the new King Beyond the Wall, after all.

No doubt they will avenge him. There is no way the Night Watch will be able to control the Wildlings without Jon Snow. Utter chaos. Can't wait to read about it.

[sj4iy]

People feel cold when they go into shock. What of it?

I can attest to this first hand. I've gone into shock more times than I can count, and I can't get warm no matter what.

It doesn't surprise me that a man who has just been stabbed would go into shock. But that doesn't mean he is dead.

[Aaronomus]

The pink letter revealed that Jon had been interfering with politics within the realm.

It revealed nothing of the sort. Half the people Ramsay Snow demanded weren't even at Castle Black. The other half had been there since before Jon was elected Lord Commander.

I've gone into shock more times than I can count

:eek:

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

It revealed nothing of the sort. Half the people Ramsay Snow demanded weren't even at Castle Black. The other half had been there since before Jon was elected Lord Commander.

Jon interfered when he realized Mance was alive and allowed him to go south. Everyone knew this once the letter was later read in the Shield Hall. He even told Tormund that the letter was half true and he thought to himself that the Night's Watch takes no part and what he was proposing to do was treason. When he read the letter to the men proposing Tormund go to Hard Home and that he was going south....the Shield Hall went mad. He explained to them that he did not expect his brothers to foreswear their vows. He thought to himself if there was oath breaking then it was his and his alone.

[sj4iy]

:eek:

I have addison's disease, so it's something I've dealt with for years. Once I couldn't get warm at all (my bp was like 50/30) and I kept asking for blankets...later that night in the hospital, I woke up after my bp had gone back up and I was drenched with sweat.

When I read that line in the book, I immediately thought he was going into shock. Dead people don't feel cold...they don't feel anything.

[Pashernate Reader]

Haven't D&D already ruined the aftermath of the stabbing by what one of them said at the Oxford Q&A with Kit and John?

Pretty much.

[Fleabottomboy]

After first read I thought Jon was really dead and it was a shocker. I don't think you can help but root for Jon after what's happened to the Stark family. After a re-read I feel the strongest possibility is that he wargs into Ghost. The main evidence being the prologue story of Varamyr Sixskins death and how it is said that for Wargs slipping into dogs and wolves is as easy as slipping on a pair of old boots. Why else would this prologue even be there?

As for how Jon's human form will stay alive while he is away, I think Mel will definitely have something to do with that. She holds a lot of power at the wall and clout with Queen Selyse even with Stannis away and she will definitely secure Jon's body and attempt to heal him. It is likely that the wildlings and the NW will be at each others throats in the meantime. But I have a feeling Mel will use Sway With Queen's men to control the situation and rectify some of Jon's policy more towards Stannis' liking. And get the wildlings under control so they can add strength to their warplans.

Finally it appears Mance is trying to pull some tricks of his to stop this because he is definitely not down with Stannis and probably even wrote the pink letter to try and get willing out of that whole NW / STANNIS indentured servitude deal as they are FREE Folk above all else.

[Daniel Tarly]

I have heard that GRR Martin accidentally revealed Jon Snow is in a coma (not confirmed).

I personally, believe he's alive, as there's no one nearby who could be azor ahai. the book begins with battles of mereen& at the wall (confirmed by martin) so Dany can't be there to help.

Therefore, more than likely, Jon might morph in AA.

Unless bran is AA (a quite unpopular theory).

[The Great Cornholio!]

Pretty much.

What was that? I watched it on youtube, but didn't catch anything interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfvVluNxujc

Spoiler:

Edit: After a second viewing I caught it. It drops about 20:35. The first time I saw it I was caught up with the joke element of it

Dammit Kit.

[Lord Friendzone]

What was that? I watched it on youtube, but didn't catch anything interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfvVluNxujc

Spoiler:

Edit: After a second viewing I caught it. It drops about 20:35. The first time I saw it I was caught up with the joke element of it

Dammit Kit.

It's just a joke. ;) Nothing more,nothing less.They wouldn't reveal such a important thing in the show just like that.

[The Great Cornholio!]

It's just a joke. ;) Nothing more,nothing less.They wouldn't reveal such a important thing in the show just like that.

Is it? John Bradley's reaction made me wonder.

[Valyrian Blade]

They pretty much spoiled it.

[King Tyrion XX]

One thing I thought points out that he may have died said:

He NEVER felt it

I'd say if he was dead the "He never felt" line couldn't have been from his POV.

[bemused]

When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

Those three periods at the end mark a pause. It's a classic cliff hanger.

I've come to think that Jon won't even lose consciousness between the end of this chapter and where his story picks up in TWoW , but he may very well enter into an altered state of conciousness, as he does in his sparring bout with Iron Emmett.

This isn't just a wild guess - I think there have been many hints given that would lead to this conclusion.

Taken all together, there's reason to believe that :

1) Jon is wearing mail under his outer clothing , and Bowen's dagger gets caught in it, rendering that wound less serious than it would have been, otherwise.

2) Jon takes note of 4 men together in the shieldhall. 2 of those men attack him with daggers . Of course he would assume the other 2 would follow suit , so he expects a third and fourth dagger.

3) Something ( Jon can't see what it is) hits him between the shoulderblades - Don't forget he falls to his knees just before or as that third strike is being delivered (and don't forget the likelihood of mail). That strike may not have done anything more than perhaps winding him and pushing him face first into the snow, which would feel cold. ( I ,too, assume there was a third knife , but am very dubious that it landed a clean hit)

4) From the time he notices the wound from Bowen "smoking", we are not told specifically what Jon can see, only what he feels, and (some of) what he thinks.

5) When he whispers "Ghost", Ghost just may be on the scene, or approaching. Is he "reaching" for Ghost , or speaking to Ghost? It's an open question.

6) We saw Ghost appear to draw strength from Jon's presence and rise to stand when he was wounded by Orell's eagle .. I wouldn't rule out that he could now return the favour to Jon.

7) It's very possible that he never felt the fourth knife because it never struck.

And I suppose I can't see the purpose in removing Jon from the action with so much unresolved. I think his true bonding with Ghost now has to come suddenly. Some needed insights into his nature (not necessarily his parentage) have to come in the form of a sudden epiphany, not a gradual realization. ..and I don't think there's a chance that GRRM would actually kill Jon after devoting so much to the character's development .. or that he would have him fall into Mel's clutches.

[sj4iy]

nm

[Ninerings]

It's very possible that he never felt the fourth knife because it never struck.

Now that is something I never considered.

[Swordofthemornin]

At the time of the stabbing Ghost is locked up to prevent him from fighting with the Boar. Its been a while since i read ADWD but im sure this is the case.

[bemused]

Yes, Jon left Ghost inside his quarters. However, the guards outside Jon's door went with him to the shieldhall .. Jon told Mel where Ghost was and we don't know for sure where she went when she left the shieldhall. She has sent Devan on errands to Jon's quarters before. She's always saying Jon should keep Ghost with him. .. Also.. Where's Satin since he escorted Clydas back to his quarters? He would have everyday reasons to open Jon's door .. and so might even Dryn, since becoming Jon's page... etc. etc.

Ghost may well not be locked up anymore.

[sj4iy]

Now that is something I never considered.

That was my first thought, actually.

Really, we don't know what's happened to Jon. We can only be sure that he was stabbed once. Otherwise, Jon is completely unreliable in knowing what's happening to him. We know that Wick's knife only grazed his neck, and that Bowen's knife stabbed him in the stomach. We know that the third knife 'took' him in the back (which doesn't necessarily mean he was actually stabbed with it), and we don't know what happened with the fourth knife at all.

Basically, Martin made this so ambiguous that Jon could be anywhere from 'wounded but okay' to 'dead'. Personally, I think that if Martin just wanted to kill him off for good, he would have given Jon some inarguably mortal wounds. Otherwise, it's clear that Jon is coming back somehow.

[bemused]

That was my first thought, actually.

Really, we don't know what's happened to Jon. We can only be sure that he was stabbed once. Otherwise, Jon is completely unreliable in knowing what's happening to him. We know that Wick's knife only grazed his neck, and that Bowen's knife stabbed him in the stomach. We know that the third knife 'took' him in the back (which doesn't necessarily mean he was actually stabbed with it), and we don't know what happened with the fourth knife at all.

Basically, Martin made this so ambiguous that Jon could be anywhere from 'wounded but okay' to 'dead'. Personally, I think that if Martin just wanted to kill him off for good, he would have given Jon some inarguably mortal wounds. Otherwise, it's clear that Jon is coming back somehow.

I agree with all of this.

But with particular attention to the section in bold : There are many ways GRRM can resolve this and still keep Jon as a character .. and many of those ways are fine with me (just not Jon of the undead).

Over time though, I've become more and more enamoured of the "berserker" outcome. Whatever GRRM does here, I'm sure we will see Jon go into that mode again (at some point), since we've been teased with it more than once.

I can't help feeling that this would be a very dramatic moment to reintroduce it, at the same time allowing Hardhome to go forward and allowing Jon to confront Ramsay.

Whenever we do see it, I'm interested to see if, once he understands it or realizes more fully that he has the ability, will Jon be able to surrender to it in battle.. almost will himself to enter it.

ETA, again: (sorry) And would this possibly make Jon the perfect regent/protector for Rickon who was already so wolf-like , and may share the ability.