Could Sansa annul her own marriage? [SPOILERS]

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I don't think Sansa could annul her own marriage, but if it suits the powers-that-be to have it annuled, I am sure it could be made to happen.

There has been speculation that Littlefinger could whistle up a fake Tysha to say that the Lannister marriage is invalid on the grounds of bigamy. (This is the reason that "speak now or forever hold your peace" is in traditional marriage vows - not to provide a rom-com plotline, but to make sure that neither the bride nor groom is already married or too closely related. In an era without ID cards or skip tracing, people could "disappear" and remarry or at least attempt to.) Tywin might think that he annulled Tyrion's marriage by disposing of Tysha, but if LF could produce a fake Arya, a fake Tysha would be a piece of cake. Tysha is an unknown peasant girl - who, besides Tyrion - who is AWOL right now - would remember or care what she looked like? Certainly not the High Septon.

And if Aegon/fAegon took power and wanted to marry Sansa, I don't think anyone is going to say "no" to the King - and you can bet that LF would ditch Harry in a hot minute if it meant that Sansa married a Targaryen. If his protege had the prospects of becoming Queen, LF would be rubbing his hands in glee. "Powaaah!"

I don't think Sansa wants Tyrion back, and I am sure that Tyrion does not want Sansa back either. Right now, though, her marriage is protection for Sansa against being shark chum on the Westerosi marriage market - even as Alayne, the bastard, she's still the bastard of a rich high lord, and his only child to boot - LF might want to have her legitimized.

Sansa will probably end the series unmarried or at least not married to Tyrion, but the sham marriage is serving its purposes for right now.

[Harry the Hair]

I don't see why not: she could petition the high septon for an annulment on the grounds of no consummation.

[Ramsays Fleyed Lips]

Black Fish and Jaime went around and around about oaths wrought from swords and convenience when they met at River Run in Feast. Just read that earlier this week.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

All she has to do is make a written statement to the local leader of the faith/septon High Septon or Council of Faith (which sounds a lot like a Catholic ecumenical council to me, currently just twenty-one in ~2000 years), submit to a physical exam led by septas that shows her "maiden-head" is still intact and the annulment should be no-sweat. It is the problem that arrises when she reveals her true identity as the Lannister-faction is still in power in King's Landing and she is attainted traitor for Regicide.

Fixed.

[Lord of the Vale]

She can say that the marriage was never consumated and ask/demand that it is annuled by the high septon or by A councile of the faith

[Emanresu]

From Alayne I it seems that

she still regards herself as irretrievably married to Tyrion, much as she wishes she wasn't

which is a little odd since as many have pointed out by the laws as we have been led to understand them, setting her unconsummated marriage aside should be a little thing (and atm Tyrion seems hardly likely to contest even if asked, which he wouldn't be, though both of those things might change).

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Sansa doesn't know about Tysha (not beyond what LF told her, she existed), nor can she apporach the High Septon.

[Steve Stark]

Lots of interesting stuff in this thread, and some great points.

I think it all depends, obviously, on how the power struggle turns out in the end. Where the Stark family turns up in terms of power will matter, and of course the Lannisters as well considering she was forced to marry one. Putting the authority of the High Septon and Westerosi religious institutions to the side, it all comes down to political manipulation in terms of family ties. If she were to push off the marriage on her own, and "remarry", no matter to which family name, in the future her children and their ability to hold lands could be questioned. Being labeled "bastard born" could damage the Stark family in the long run. I don't think it would be hard for her to move on, but it COULD damage her children's future. EDIT: Also, the other family might not want to marry her and damage their own name until the matter gets resolved.

But with the support of a "King in the North", or with backing of the entire north once things stabilize, she may very well be able to do what she wills. The Lannisters were holding her by force, and the north knows this. The Lannisters also arranged the Red Wedding. The North remembers this stuff. I think they will protect one of their own in the end...once all this undead/Others/war/dragons/armies and all that mess comes to an end.

It's all perception, and what can be used against her. Same concept of why the Lannisters hid the Jaime and Cersei children born of incest. Even though the Targs did that sort of thing, it was no longer accepted. Sure, they could announce it and do what they want. But then it gives Stannis more claim, and plenty of others could rise up against them. All they need is an excuse.

Personally, and I say personally emphatically...I believe most lords would accept Sansa's marriage annulment and support it. Probably the entire north and then some. It's one thing for a family to force their child to marry into another family for political reasons, against their will, and another entirely for an enemy to capture children and force them to marry against the other family's will. Whether it was in the eyes of the Seven or not. The Lannisters manipulated the whole thing and broke all sorts of other traditions too. They are going to fall hard, and then everything they did can be undone (within reason).

[Petyr Patter]

From Alayne I it seems that

she still regards herself as irretrievably married to Tyrion, much as she wishes she wasn't

which is a little odd since as many have pointed out by the laws as we have been led to understand them, setting her unconsummated marriage aside should be a little thing (and atm Tyrion seems hardly likely to contest even if asked, which he wouldn't be, though both of those things might change).

Tywin "leave nothing to chance" saw an unnecessary risk in Tyrion's refusal to consummate the marriage. So, it isn't a "little thing." Actually getting a marriage annulled depends on the current High Septim, which has already changed twice in the course of the novels. The High Sparrow doesn't strike me as the sort to just say yes "because." I mean, he might eventually say yes, but I suspect he'd want something in return. Plus, Sansa would have to reveal herself, which is also risky.

[Mikkel]

Sansa cannot in any meaningful way annul her own marriage - of course if she ends up sitting in Winterfell under her own power or similar, who's going to truly object - but as far as any follower of the Seven is concerned, she's married until the High Septon says she isn't. Proving that the marriage wasn't consummated is both demeaning and dangerous (she would have to submit herself to some sort of gross examination by the Faith, like the one Margaery goes through), and more importantly she would have to be in King's Landing most likely.

All in all, it's not "just done", and in the meantime she has to make sure she can prove the un-consummation (there's a better word for that, I'm sure), so going anything to spoil that is right out. Of course if she was safely widowed it would be another matter, but relying on not just Tyrion dying, but proof of same seems... risky, to say the least.

All in all, an annulment - while technically possible - doesn't seem likely at any point in the near future. Which is why Littlefinger is jumping through hoops to get "his bastard" to marry Harry in the first place.

In fact, that whole deal seems rather suspect to me: a bastard and Harry, the heir-presumptive to the Vale -- but I'll need to re-read the part where LF explains the whole thing to Sansa, there must be something in there so that it makes sense.

[Ghosts Lunch]

She was married before the Seven, so the "not consummated" is the strongest aspect, thing is that requires the High Septon which basically means High Sparrow at this point which is obviously tricky

She was raised before both gods with a Septon being brought into Winterfell so the Southron fiction won't work, especially in the Vale/Riverlands

I do wonder though if she can pull out the "not consummated line" be verified a virgin still by a respectable group of women and then being annulled or re-married before a Heart Tree seems quite feasible, if she is in a seat of power surrounded by anti-Lannister people she can quite easily get away with this for the same reason the Targs got away with Polygamy and incest for so long despite Fot7 objections

People have said she's been strangely "willing" to play along with the HtH LF plot, but the "I will not be married while my husband lives" could be seen as a barrier/protection against being pushed into unwanted marriages (like to SR) as much as a "hindrance", it kind of preserves her independence once she is confident enough to stand on her own two feet

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Sansa trying to end her marriage is possible although her success is by no means guaranteed. Saying it was forced would be hard to prove since as mentioned earlier in the thread, she was witnessed participating of her own free will. Saying she was a hostage does not help here since she was officially a ward of the king due to her father's public confession of treason. Thus, the king had the right to broker a marriage for her. Her marriage is completely valid in the eyes of Westeros.

As for her non-consummation, this is also not necessarily a sure thing. Annulments were very not desirable by the church and the idea of discarding marriages for any reason is a very modern concept. The HS could definitely say that Westeros has been undergoing some trying times which is why there was no consummation yet and say no.

The weakest reason I've heard thrown around for her getting an annulment is the fact that she is of the North and the Old Gods and was married in a Sept. No one would ever buy that. What's more, with the exception of Dany and Drogo, I think all the weddings we've seen or heard about in the books were all done in the name of the Seven. I imagine the Wildings and the Dornish might have different customs but we haven't really heard about anything officially. Oh yes, Arya and Ramsey but I wonder if Martin purposely made this ceremony different to highlight it's "problems".

I think there will be many deciding factors that will either produce the right "combination" for Sansa's annulment or not. First, the goals of the HS will be the most important factor. Does he want to undo all that the Lannisters have done as a sign to other great houses and the new king or does he want to return Westeros to a pious, religious way of life? What does he gain by an annulment of the marriage? Who is the new king and how do they feel about the Lannisters, the Starks and the HS? What might he gain from the marriage remaining intact and what might he gain from an annulment? Is Tyrion around when the request is made and if so, what is his position regarding power and allies? What is Sansa doing at the time of the request and what power and allies does she have? Ultimately I think Sansa's marriage will be annulled or maintained as another political move in the game (which is why it was put in place to begin with), not for any "right or wrong" reasons for the marriage.

ETA:

I forgot to mention, that despite all of this, I'm thinking there might be success for Sansa's annulment based on the new chapter and she'll be free to marry again.

[Buried Treasure]

All she has to do is make a written statement to the local leader of the faith/septon, submit to a physical exam led by septas that shows her "maiden-head" is still intact and the annulment should be no-sweat. It is the problem that arrises when she reveals her true identity as the Lannister-faction is still in power in King's Landing and she is attainted traitor for Regicide.

I don't see why not: she could petition the high septon for an annulment on the grounds of no consummation.

I'm not certain that non-consummation is grounds for annulment. I think rather that non-consumation is a condition which must be met to allow annulment on other grounds. Take Marg's marriages to the 'Baratheon's': them being bastards not trueborn members of House Baratheon would be grounds for annulment if that were ever discovered/acknowledged. Joff had to die because he was old enough to consummate the marriage, meaning the that even with those grounds the marriage could not be undone; Tommen is young enough to not consummate for some years so she can be married to him but if Stannis or Aegon win the war the Tyrell's can 'discover' the truth about the incest and petition for annulment on that ground.

Lady Hornwood was presumably raped by Ramsay, and Robb thought that the Imp would be raping Sansa every night so nobody that opposed those marriages thought they could be undone. But as Sansa's marriage is not in fact consummated it could be annulled if grounds could be found for that. And where there is political will there is usually a way, so I think being forced to say the words unwillingly would be accepted as grounds - if the High Septon and holder of the Iron Throne both wanted it that way.

[lojzelote]

I'm not sure if anybody brought it up before, but since it was Joffrey as the King who arranged the marriage and gave Sansa away, couldn't it be argued that the marriage was invalid to begin with because Joff had no right to be the King? I mean, if it was publicly revealed at some point (let's say that a hysterical Cersei would confess after all of her children have been killed), wouldn't it mean that Joff's decisions lost legal power, so everything what would remain would be a forced marriage, shades of Ramsay Snow/Donella Hornwood? Maester Luwin said that vows at sword point could be considered invalid. Or does it not truly matter as long as Tyrion and Sansa said the vows?

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I'm not sure if anybody brought it up before, but since it was Joffrey as the King who arranged the marriage and gave Sansa away, couldn't it be argued that the marriage was invalid to begin with because Joff had no right to be the King? I mean, if it was publicly revealed at some point (let's say that a hysterical Cersei would confess after all of her children have been killed), wouldn't it mean that Joff's decisions lost legal power, so everything what would remain would be a forced marriage, shades of Ramsay Snow/Donella Hornwood? Maester Luwin said that vows at sword point could be considered invalid. Or does it not truly matter as long as Tyrion and Sansa said the vows?

I don't think it truly matters since they said the vows. I suppose we should look at how people reacted to the wedding, especially her family. Neither Robb nor Cat claimed anything abut it not being valid because she was a hostage and when Cat learns from Jaime himself that Joff is a bastard, we never have a single thought from her about any possible hope of saying he didn't have the authority. I think Westeros will never have a confession about the "Baratheon heirs" being bastards. Cersei will win her trial and carry on as usual as regent of King Tommen Baratheon. He'll eventually die (as will Myrcella) as the prophecy foretold and the secret will die with Cersei and Jaime. Finally, after being married for years now only to be find out that the king never had the right to arrange for the marriage in the first place, wouldn't negate the marriage. It's already done and they said the vows. If there is annulment, it will be for political gain, not any legal or moral reasons.

[Queen.Sansa.Lannister]

I think it's foreshadowing that she will *refuse* to set aside her marriage to Tyrion, even though she has legal grounds to do so.

I agree with this. Despite Sansa's feelings about her particular marriage or her husband, she still very much adheres to the idea of marriage being sacred, as evidenced by her comment that she basically will not set aside her marriage while Tyrion still lives. And she always thinks of him in kind terms after being separated. I think her entire storyline and his have been leading up to them staying together, especially considering the pretty much parallel lives they are currently living.

[Buried Treasure]

I agree with this. Despite Sansa's feelings about her particular marriage or her husband, she still very much adheres to the idea of marriage being sacred, as evidenced by her comment that she basically will not set aside her marriage while Tyrion still lives. And she always thinks of him in kind terms after being separated. I think her entire storyline and his have been leading up to them staying together, especially considering the pretty much parallel lives they are currently living.

She thought of him as kinder than other Lannisters when they were together as well - but she was hardly happy with the marriage then.

She can't set aside her marriage whilst Tyrion lives. It would require getting permission from the High Septon who is living in the same city as the enemies she is hiding from and who is allied with them (he has blessed Tommen's rule). That falls very far short of any indication she wants the marriage to last. The vows she was forced to make would be considered sacred, but the High Septon is considered the gods living avatar (or whatever the phrasing was that got Cersei charged with theocide) which is presumably why he has the authority to absolve people of vows sworn to the Seven.

I'm not sure if anybody brought it up before, but since it was Joffrey as the King who arranged the marriage and gave Sansa away, couldn't it be argued that the marriage was invalid to begin with because Joff had no right to be the King? I mean, if it was publicly revealed at some point (let's say that a hysterical Cersei would confess after all of her children have been killed), wouldn't it mean that Joff's decisions lost legal power, so everything what would remain would be a forced marriage, shades of Ramsay Snow/Donella Hornwood? Maester Luwin said that vows at sword point could be considered invalid. Or does it not truly matter as long as Tyrion and Sansa said the vows?

Witnesses and a bridecloak are mentioned as necessary for a valid wedding but not someone to give the bride away. The giving away of the bride may be a traditional part of the ceremony, rather than legal part. If Sansa and Tyrion were lying about there identity it would matter, but Joff exchanged no vows so his false identity really should not matter.

A forced marriage doesn't lack legal power so long as the vows are said and the bride bedded. Ramsay's marriage was more valid than Sansa's currently is becasue his was completed. At the moment it doesn't matter whether she agreed willingly or was forced to say the vows - she is married. That she was forced will only matter when she takes her case to the High Septon to ask for an annulment.

[lojzelote]

A forced marriage doesn't lack legal power so long as the vows are said and the bride bedded. Ramsay's marriage was more valid than Sansa's currently is becasue his was completed. At the moment it doesn't matter whether she agreed willingly or was forced to say the vows - she is married. That she was forced will only matter when she takes her case to the High Septon to ask for an annulment.

My point was that later the marriage could be attacked on the basis that Sansa was forced into it and by people who were not her legal guardians to boot. In the very least, that would be a valid reason why to ask for an annumelment, whether High Septon likes to grant them or not.

[Masha]

Sansa can request an annulment from High Septon and provided she can prove that she is still a virgin, such marriage can and will be annulled pretty easily. The only danger to Sansa is from only Cersei who will catch her if Sansa goes public.

However, if Cersei is gone, Sansa can apply for annulment safely. Tyrion was accused and declared guilty of kinslaying, which is a grave sin. Sansa wasn't accused publicly nor was she mentioned at the trial at Tyrion's sentencing. So, if Cersei is not there to accuse her, nobody else will.

Secondly, even if Tyrion re-appears, he still is a kinslayer who killed his own father. Unless it is somehow proven that Tywin is not his father, then not one lord at Westeros, including Dorne, will acknowledge him as rightful heir to Castely Rock. And if, Tywin is not his real father, then Tyrion looses his claim as heir to Castely Rock, short of conquering it on dragonback.

So, because Tyrion is a kinslayer (Twice over) and Sansa (still) a virgin who can prove it, If she can safely apply for annulment, she has pretty high chances of getting it from present High Septon, who has no love for Lannisters. (And if Cersei is gone, not one of Lannister can/will press Tyrion's claim to Sansa because he is a kinslayer, nor that they would want to).

Actually, now that I think that, because what Tyrion has done is such a heinous crime in Westeros, even is Sansa is not a virgin she can ask to annul her marriage because by ALL laws in Westeros, both old and new, Tyrion is considered such a monster, such a person non-grata that killed TWO of his closest relatives - his own father (and Joffrey - his own nephew), Sansa will get an annulment from faith!

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I think Mace Tyrell's impression of Sansa's guilt is still unclear. It's entirely possible--plausible even--that he thinks Sansa disappeared because she was guilty. And Shae did testify to that effect, and while we know that that was a lie, Mace well have believed it.