Could Sansa annul her own marriage? [SPOILERS]

[Mikkel]

Sansa can request an annulment from High Septon and provided she can prove that she is still a virgin, such marriage can and will be annulled pretty easily. The only danger to Sansa is from only Cersei who will catch her if Sansa goes public.

However, if Cersei is gone, Sansa can apply for annulment safely. Tyrion was accused and declared guilty of kinslaying, which is a grave sin. Sansa wasn't accused publicly nor was she mentioned at the trial at Tyrion's sentencing. So, if Cersei is not there to accuse her, nobody else will.

Secondly, even if Tyrion re-appears, he still is a kinslayer who killed his own father. Unless it is somehow proven that Tywin is not his father, then not one lord at Westeros, including Dorne, will acknowledge him as rightful heir to Castely Rock. And if, Tywin is not his real father, then Tyrion looses his claim as heir to Castely Rock, short of conquering it on dragonback.

So, because Tyrion is a kinslayer (Twice over) and Sansa (still) a virgin who can prove it, If she can safely apply for annulment, she has pretty high chances of getting it from present High Septon, who has no love for Lannisters. (And if Cersei is gone, not one of Lannister can/will press Tyrion's claim to Sansa because he is a kinslayer, nor that they would want to).

Actually, now that I think that, because what Tyrion has done is such a heinous crime in Westeros, even is Sansa is not a virgin she can ask to annul her marriage because by ALL laws in Westeros, both old and new, Tyrion is considered such a monster, such a person non-grata that killed TWO of his closest relatives - his own father (and Joffrey - his own nephew), Sansa will get an annulment from faith!

Wishful thinking for the most part, I'm afraid. If being married to Ramsay isn't grounds for annulment using the "my husband is a monster" reasoning (and it isn't), then nothing is. It's an open secret what happened to Lady Hornwood, and yet - her marriage (by force) to Ramsay stands.

It's also worth nothing that while we know Sansa was hardly willing to marry Tyrion, she made no public show of this fact (for very good survival-based reasons), so it wasn't immediately apparent to everyone that she was forced into it.

[direpoodle]

Sansa cannot in any meaningful way annul her own marriage - of course if she ends up sitting in Winterfell under her own power or similar, who's going to truly object - but as far as any follower of the Seven is concerned, she's married until the High Septon says she isn't. Proving that the marriage wasn't consummated is both demeaning and dangerous (she would have to submit herself to some sort of gross examination by the Faith, like the one Margaery goes through), and more importantly she would have to be in King's Landing most likely.

All in all, it's not "just done", and in the meantime she has to make sure she can prove the un-consummation (there's a better word for that, I'm sure), so going anything to spoil that is right out. Of course if she was safely widowed it would be another matter, but relying on not just Tyrion dying, but proof of same seems... risky, to say the least.

All in all, an annulment - while technically possible - doesn't seem likely at any point in the near future. Which is why Littlefinger is jumping through hoops to get "his bastard" to marry Harry in the first place.

In fact, that whole deal seems rather suspect to me: a bastard and Harry, the heir-presumptive to the Vale -- but I'll need to re-read the part where LF explains the whole thing to Sansa, there must be something in there so that it makes sense.

There's no evidence that she must be examined to annul the marriage. Lancel and Amarei Frey are getting their marriage annulled on grounds of non-consummation, even though she is definitely not a virgin.

I think Sansa and Tyrion's marriage will be annulled on grounds of non-consummation, and either one or both will be able to get the annulment when they're able to come out of hiding.

[Mikkel]

There's no evidence that she must be examined to annul the marriage. Lancel and Amarei Frey are getting their marriage annulled on grounds of non-consummation, even though she is definitely not a virgin.

I think Sansa and Tyrion's marriage will be annulled on grounds of non-consummation, and either one or both will be able to get the annulment when they're able to come out of hiding.

Lancel is now of the Faith, and thus his word is enough - Sansa has no such advantage (plus it's politically expedient for the High Sparrow to get Lancel on board).

But it's true that it's not a prerequisite every time - only when the virginity of the bride is in question (yes, double standards indeed). As you say yourself, that's not in question with Lancel and Amerei.

It all depends on the political realities at the time, anyway: If Sansa is somehow in a position of power, it'll be very different from her current situation where she can't even tell anyone who she is. But I maintain that as of the end of ADWD (sample chapters included), there's no way for Sansa to get an annulment, and "doing it herself" is a pointless endeavor.

[Masha]

Wishful thinking for the most part, I'm afraid. If being married to Ramsay isn't grounds for annulment using the "my husband is a monster" reasoning (and it isn't), then nothing is. It's an open secret what happened to Lady Hornwood, and yet - her marriage (by force) to Ramsay stands.

It's also worth nothing that while we know Sansa was hardly willing to marry Tyrion, she made no public show of this fact (for very good survival-based reasons), so it wasn't immediately apparent to everyone that she was forced into it.

Those are two different situation entirely. Lady Hornwood, by all intents and purposes, was a very minor noble while Ramsey was the only son of a Lord, even if base born bastard, at the time, just slight less than Warden of the North - Stark. Furthermore, the whole situation was in the middle of nowhere in the North, and if I remember correctly, there was discussion at Winterfell to get Ramsey for this and the reason Winterfell was unguarded is because the custodian took all their forces to get Ramsey.

Furthermore, church of seven is literally non-existent in the North with no power.

Tyrion killed an extremely powerful lord, and his own father too boot, just after being declared guilty of kingslaying and kinslaying, and this was done in Red Keep, in the seat of power of all Seven Kingdoms and the set of power of Faith of the Seven.

He is a monster in eyes of the Seven, in Lannister eyes and Tyrells. If you think, its not enough to Sansa to get an annulment in addition to non-consummation reason, its definitely is - at least if the current High Septon remain in the lead.

[Mikkel]

Those are two different situation entirely. Lady Hornwood, by all intents and purposes, was a very minor noble while Ramsey was the only son of a Lord, even if base born bastard, at the time, just slight less than Warden of the North - Stark. Furthermore, the whole situation was in the middle of nowhere in the North, and if I remember correctly, there was discussion at Winterfell to get Ramsey for this and the reason Winterfell was unguarded is because the custodian took all their forces to get Ramsey.

Furthermore, church of seven is literally non-existent in the North with no power.

Tyrion killed an extremely powerful lord, and his own father too boot, just after being declared guilty of kingslaying and kinslaying, and this was done in Red Keep, in the seat of power of all Seven Kingdoms and the set of power of Faith of the Seven.

He is a monster in eyes of the Seven, in Lannister eyes and Tyrells. If you think, its not enough to Sansa to get an annulment in addition to non-consummation reason, its definitely is - at least if the current High Septon remain in the lead.

Nope. There's AFAIK not a single case of someone being a monster being grounds for annulment of their marriage. Arrest, trial, execution, assassination or exile - those are all potential results of someone being a monster and getting caught at it. Annulment is not.

Also, minor noble or not Lady Hornwood was way higher in status than Ramsey (a bastard), so I'm not sure what you're trying to get at there. That Ramsey was somehow protected due to his status? Because that's certainly false (at that point in the story at least).

Winterfell was unguarded because Rodrik Cassell took the majority of the already depleted garrison to free Torrhen's Square from Dagmer Cleftjaw, it had nothing to do with Ramsey (who was believed dead at the time if I'm not mistaken).

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Actually, Lady Hornwood had the same status as Lord Bolton or Lord Manderly and way better than Ramsay Snow.

Who was hunted down and killed on the spot by Winterfell for that crime. Body double nonwithstanding.

[Harry the Hair]

I'm not certain that non-consummation is grounds for annulment. I think rather that non-consumation is a condition which must be met to allow annulment on other grounds.

That's possible. I suppose the petition for annulment can only be presented if no consummation occurred and then it's entirely up to the High-Septon to decide weather or not he'll approve the request.

I guess Sansa could demand an annulment on the grounds of her husband being proven guilty of regicide. Though for that to occur she would've had to have been proven innocent of Joff's murder.

[Wouter]

There's no evidence that she must be examined to annul the marriage. Lancel and Amarei Frey are getting their marriage annulled on grounds of non-consummation, even though she is definitely not a virgin.

I think Sansa and Tyrion's marriage will be annulled on grounds of non-consummation, and either one or both will be able to get the annulment when they're able to come out of hiding.

This may work for Lancel and Amarei because both want to annul the marriage: Lancel because he is now a warrior-monk type (and of course the High Septon is willing to indulge one of his own guys) and Amarei because she wants a husband that actually will be a husband.

For Sansa and Tyrion, the problem is that Tyrion is not available to simply confirm that there was no consummation and that he would like a divorce. In that case, the High Septon will have to consider other forms of evidence (or he will have to be "persuaded" by other means, such as the promise of large amounts of grain for the starving population, if he could just be a bit accomodating to certain wishes, perhaps?).

I wonder: would Tyrion attempt to resist a divorce (once he returns and if it still an issue at that time) or cooperate with Sansa without fuss, to get annulment? In his last chapter in ADWD, he did mention he missed "his wife" and by the way it was phrased I doubt he meant Tysha (who was mentioned separately as being missed, too, along with Jaime and even Shae).

[Whitering]

Cersei was able to buy the High Septon with a promise to repeal certain laws, I presume LF can figure out someway to manipulate him, it did show that everybody has a price.

[lojzelote]

I wonder: would Tyrion attempt to resist a divorce (once he returns and if it still an issue at that time) or cooperate with Sansa without fuss, to get annulment? In his last chapter in ADWD, he did mention he missed "his wife" and by the way it was phrased I doubt he meant Tysha (who was mentioned separately as being missed, too, along with Jaime and even Shae).

I'm certain he meant Tysha. He thinks she was the only one who ever truly loved him. Sansa is just another one of his false women. She didn't even give him any joyful moments as opposed to Shae or Jaime.

The only way I could see him protest against the annulment would be that he would want to take revenge on her for having deserted him.

[chrisdaw]

While we're discussing undoing major plot points I've been wondering if Ned could sew his head back on?

[DarkSister1001]

While we're discussing undoing major plot points I've been wondering if Ned could sew his head back on?

How can he sew if he doesn't have Needle, it's across the Narrow Sea, duh. (sorry, couldn't resist having some fun) :cool4:

[Lance Corporal Underpants]

I suspect a newly savvy Sansa might use her marriage to Tyrion as a wagering chip, at some point...

[Petyr Patter]

So, to summarize this thread...

• Sansa and Tyrion are considered legally and irrevocably married... by Sansa and undoubtedly others.
  
• For all intents and purposes, only the High Septim Can annul a marriage.
  
• Sansa has the legal grounds to seek an annulment (non-consummation).
  
• However, doing so would surely reveal her location.
  
• Furthermore, there is no telling how the current High Septim would treat such a request.
  
• He might agree, he might want more evidence, he might be looking for his payday, or he might believe Sansa did murder Joffrey.
  
• There is a reason why Baelish is betting on Tyrion dying instead of seeking the annulment.
  
• Speaking of which, Tyrion isn't dead, and I don't think he's going to stay out of Westeros for more than one book.
  

[Lord Damian]

So, to summarize this thread...

• Sansa and Tyrion are considered legally and irrevocably married... by Sansa and undoubtedly others.

For all intents and purposes, only the High Septim Can annul a marriage.

Sansa has the legal grounds to seek an annulment (non-consummation).

However, doing so would surely reveal her location.

Furthermore, there is no telling how the current High Septim would treat such a request.

He might agree, he might want more evidence, he might be looking for his payday, or he might believe Sansa did murder Joffrey.

There is a reason why Baelish is betting on Tyrion dying instead of seeking the annulment.

Speaking of which, Tyrion isn't dead, and I don't think he's going to stay out of Westeros for more than one book.

GRRM has confirmed that only the High Septon can give and annulment which is pretty much granted for high-profile/high-born marriages. Sansa needs regime change. She needs Aegon VI to happen and I think that is her most likely next groom.

[Mikkel]

Cersei was able to buy the High Septon with a promise to repeal certain laws, I presume LF can figure out someway to manipulate him, it did show that everybody has a price.

Cersei was the one getting bought in that scenario though. The High Septon got what he wanted, Cersei got some gold (or rather she got some debts erased).

[Gogossos]

Sansa needs regime change before anything can happen, in fact, she only needs Cersei out of the picture because I don't think the Jamie, the Martells or the Tyrells will go after her if she reveals herself, neither will the Targs (Dany, Jon or even fAegon will have no cause). Also, Tyrion doesn't need Sansa's marriage to secure the Rock, Dany power offers him that. So after Cersei is deposed Sansa will be free to ask for an annulment.

I guess Sansa could demand an annulment on the grounds of her husband being proven guilty of regicide. Though for that to occur she would've had to have been proven innocent of Joff's murder.

Proving innocence is a double edged sword, on one hand it's crucial to get regicide off her back in order to ask for annulment, on the other it's quite useful politically to be known as the she-wolf who avenged her family. If Tywin, Cersei and Joff have soiled the Lannister name so much, both Tyrion and Sansa might want to capitalise on being known to have offed at least two of those names.

[Wouter]

I'm certain he meant Tysha. He thinks she was the only one who ever truly loved him. Sansa is just another one of his false women. She didn't even give him any joyful moments as opposed to Shae or Jaime.

The only way I could see him protest against the annulment would be that he would want to take revenge on her for having deserted him.

Well, this is Tyrion's quote:

“What do you miss, Halfman?”

Jaime, thought Tyrion. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew.

Shae was obviously a "false woman", and Jaime was a "false brother". But he includes them anyway. Tysha has been named in the sequence, before he mentions "my wife", seemingly indicating "my wife" is not the same person as Tysha. It's at least ambiguous what is meant.

[Mikkel]

Well, this is Tyrion's quote:

Shae was obviously a "false woman", and Jaime was a "false brother". But he includes them anyway. Tysha has been named in the sequence, before he mentions "my wife", seemingly indicating "my wife" is not the same person as Tysha. It's at least ambiguous what is meant.

It is ambiguous, though it doesn't make much sense for Tyrion to miss Sansa - their marriage was hardly happy, and he was frustrated that she so obviously loathed him (while being courteous, of course).

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Sansa needs regime change before anything can happen, in fact, she only needs Cersei out of the picture because I don't think the Jamie, the Martells or the Tyrells will go after her if she reveals herself, neither will the Targs (Dany, Jon or even fAegon will have no cause). Also, Tyrion doesn't need Sansa's marriage to secure the Rock, Dany power offers him that. So after Cersei is deposed Sansa will be free to ask for an annulment.

Proving innocence is a double edged sword, on one hand it's crucial to get regicide off her back in order to ask for annulment, on the other it's quite useful politically to be known as the she-wolf who avenged her family. If Tywin, Cersei and Joff have soiled the Lannister name so much, both Tyrion and Sansa might want to capitalise on being known to have offed at least two of those names.

Exactly - Cersei is really the only one who is champing at the bit to bring Sansa to "justice." The Tyrells have a lot more to worry them now with the Ironborn invasion and Margaery's imprisonment. They'd probably be willing to say that Tyrion alone was the murderer, if even that - they could well say that oops, it was an accident after all, the late and unlamented King really did just choke on the pie. The Martells and Targaryens don't give a hoot about the alleged murder.

Cersei is the biggest threat to Sansa and she is in a very bad place as far as her power is concerned. Uncle Kevan is dead, the Tyrells won't allow her any power I'm sure, and Aunt Genna, in the Riverlands, isn't in any position to help much, and what with Tom O'Sevens under her roof, is probably going to be joining her siblings in the afterlife not long from now.

Get rid of Cersei and Sansa is in a better place. I think she is going to be the younger, more beautiful queen of the prophecy.