Could Sansa annul her own marriage? [SPOILERS]

[Lord Damian]

Well, this is Tyrion's quote:

Shae was obviously a "false woman", and Jaime was a "false brother". But he includes them anyway. Tysha has been named in the sequence, before he mentions "my wife", seemingly indicating "my wife" is not the same person as Tysha. It's at least ambiguous what is meant.

It is tysha, she and Tyrion were in love, Jaime's confession to him confirmed it. He constantly asks "where do whores go?" because of this. Sansa is not missed by him.

[Lord Damian]

Exactly - Cersei is really the only one who is champing at the bit to bring Sansa to "justice." The Tyrells have a lot more to worry them now with the Ironborn invasion and Margaery's imprisonment. They'd probably be willing to say that Tyrion alone was the murderer, if even that - they could well say that oops, it was an accident after all, the late and unlamented King really did just choke on the pie. The Martells and Targaryens don't give a hoot about the alleged murder.

Cersei is the biggest threat to Sansa and she is in a very bad place as far as her power is concerned. Uncle Kevan is dead, the Tyrells won't allow her any power I'm sure, and Aunt Genna, in the Riverlands, isn't in any position to help much, and what with Tom O'Sevens under her roof, is probably going to be joining her siblings in the afterlife not long from now.

Get rid of Cersei and Sansa is in a better place. I think she is going to be the younger, more beautiful queen of the prophecy.

Oh yes, she will be Aegon's Queen.

[Wouter]

It is ambiguous, though it doesn't make much sense for Tyrion to miss Sansa - their marriage was hardly happy, and he was frustrated that she so obviously loathed him (while being courteous, of course).

Book-Tyrion wasn't forced into the marriage like his show counterpart was (more or less); he got persuaded and manipulated into it instead. Tyrion certainly saw the upsides to marrying Sansa (both Winterfell and getting a pretty wife) and apparently hoped that it would work out OK in the longer term. That it didn't work out was a source of frustration for him (I think there are a few instances of this frustration showing in ADWD) and he may miss his original fantasy/idea of Sansa, in spite of his actual experience. He does miss Shae too, he explicitly mentions her, and one might say it doesn't make much sense for him to miss her, either.

The thing is, this new chapter again shows that Sansa would be considered a great catch for a young knight or lord, even without her actual name in many cases. Tyrion may feel he got a taste and then was denied.

It is tysha, she and Tyrion were in love, Jaime's confession to him confirmed it. He constantly asks "where do whores go?" because of this. Sansa is not missed by him.

Ironically, Tysha was not even a whore. Anyway, Tysha is explicitly named as being missed - her name is in the passage. But he mentions 4 persons that he misses (each instance separated by a dot):

-Jaime

-Shae

-Tysha

-his wife, "the one he hardly knew" (as if this qualifier would be helpful!)

Grammatically, it doesn't make much sense to mention Tysha twice. "My wife" should have been the qualifier directly following Tysha's name (without a dot separating them), and "the wife he hardly knew" would not be needed because it would be obvious which of his wives was meant.

Martin is being deliberately confusing her - we don't expect him to miss Sansa, but this passage is a counterindication that our expectations are not necessarily correct.

I don't think Sansa will be involved with (f)Aegon - LF is likely to know this is a Varys project and keep his protégé far away from it. Varys wants Dany as bride for Aegon, not Sansa, and so does Jon Connington. The latter also has a strong distaste of Starks, including Lyanna. He is not likely to be friendly to Sansa. And while Aegon could make his own decisions, IMO he's far more likely to be swayed by some Dornish woman (like Arianne or Elia) which he actually meets, rather than a distant girl which he has never met and who is a daughter of an enemy of Rhaegar.

[Mikkel]

Book-Tyrion wasn't forced into the marriage like his show counterpart was (more or less); he got persuaded and manipulated into it instead. Tyrion certainly saw the upsides to marrying Sansa (both Winterfell and getting a pretty wife) and apparently hoped that it would work out OK in the longer term. That it didn't work out was a source of frustration for him (I think there are a few instances of this frustration showing in ADWD) and he may miss his original fantasy/idea of Sansa, in spite of his actual experience. He does miss Shae too, he explicitly mentions her, and one might say it doesn't make much sense for him to miss her, either.

Didn't watch the show (or at least not beyond season 2), so I can't speak for what happens there.

I never said Tyrion got forced into it though, and I quite agree that he did it willingly, if not happily - which is exactly why it frustrates him that it is such a (polite) disaster. But I don't think he entertained any notions that Sansa actually loved or even liked him, and he half-believes she set him up with Joffrey's murder, so I really don't think he misses her.

[lojzelote]

Well, this is Tyrion's quote:

Shae was obviously a "false woman", and Jaime was a "false brother". But he includes them anyway. Tysha has been named in the sequence, before he mentions "my wife", seemingly indicating "my wife" is not the same person as Tysha. It's at least ambiguous what is meant.

I know the quote. It makes sense to me he would put greater emphazis on Tysha, because he found out she never had never betrayed him as he had thought, which would make her the only person in the world who loved him and stayed true to him. Also it would be strange for Tyrion to miss Sansa. Tysha, Shae and Jaime gave him happiness, albeit short-lived. Sansa, from his POV, is that cold, unreadable girl, who told him she'll never want him, made him feel awkward and cried at night. There was nothing to miss about their relationship.

[Harry the Hair]

I know the quote. It makes sense to me he would put greater emphazis on Tysha, because he found out she never had never betrayed him as he had thought, which would make her the only person in the world who loved him and stayed true to him. Also it would be strange for Tyrion to miss Sansa. Tysha, Shae and Jaime gave him happiness, albeit short-lived. Sansa, from his POV, is that cold, unreadable girl, who told him she'll never want him, made him feel awkward and cried at night. There was nothing to miss about their relationship.

Nothing except the prospect of inheriting Winterfell.

[Mikkel]

Nothing except the prospect of inheriting Winterfell.

But that's impossible, it's much more likely he would want Casterly Rock, no? I mean he can hardly come back to Westeros in the current political climate anyway. I know Tyrion liked the idea of ruling Winterfell through Sansa, so it's not like he is against the idea in general, but it always felt like it would be a consolation prize, instead of Casterly Rock which is/was rightfully his.

[Lord Damian]

Book-Tyrion wasn't forced into the marriage like his show counterpart was (more or less); he got persuaded and manipulated into it instead. Tyrion certainly saw the upsides to marrying Sansa (both Winterfell and getting a pretty wife) and apparently hoped that it would work out OK in the longer term. That it didn't work out was a source of frustration for him (I think there are a few instances of this frustration showing in ADWD) and he may miss his original fantasy/idea of Sansa, in spite of his actual experience. He does miss Shae too, he explicitly mentions her, and one might say it doesn't make much sense for him to miss her, either.

The thing is, this new chapter again shows that Sansa would be considered a great catch for a young knight or lord, even without her actual name in many cases. Tyrion may feel he got a taste and then was denied.

Ironically, Tysha was not even a whore. Anyway, Tysha is explicitly named as being missed - her name is in the passage. But he mentions 4 persons that he misses (each instance separated by a dot):

-Jaime

-Shae

-Tysha

-his wife, "the one he hardly knew" (as if this qualifier would be helpful!)

Grammatically, it doesn't make much sense to mention Tysha twice. "My wife" should have been the qualifier directly following Tysha's name (without a dot separating them), and "the wife he hardly knew" would not be needed because it would be obvious which of his wives was meant.

Martin is being deliberately confusing her - we don't expect him to miss Sansa, but this passage is a counterindication that our expectations are not necessarily correct.

I don't think Sansa will be involved with (f)Aegon - LF is likely to know this is a Varys project and keep his protégé far away from it. Varys wants Dany as bride for Aegon, not Sansa, and so does Jon Connington. The latter also has a strong distaste of Starks, including Lyanna. He is not likely to be friendly to Sansa. And while Aegon could make his own decisions, IMO he's far more likely to be swayed by some Dornish woman (like Arianne or Elia) which he actually meets, rather than a distant girl which he has never met and who is a daughter of an enemy of Rhaegar.

While Varys and Littlefinger both have manipulated many things that have taken place, it is they just adapt to what actually happens. Aegon on the Iron Throne is what matters to Varys and he will/should get Dorne as he is supposed nephew of Doran but he needs more, The Vale, where there are fighting men who have not been used in combat (fresh knights and soldiers) Sansa is the supposed daughter of the lord protector of the Vale. There is most certainly a possiblity that this will happen. I think Littlefinger wants Sansa for himself but if he HAS to marry her to someone to solidify his own future, better the King of Westeros then a douchebag named Harrold Hardying who has already expressed his dislike for him.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

"Wherever whores go" In think this quote is significant...... and who has the best stable of whores in Westeros?

What if....LF actually has the real Tysha?

A marriage can only be annulled by a High Septon...not your garden variety septons... and Tywin wouldn't have jumped through those hoops to annul the marriage of his already embarrassing son. He would have swept this under the rug using power and money. Tysha could have been shipped off to a brothel and LF discovered the plot. (I do not think he would have been in on it from the get-go...he's not old enough)

Anyway, if Tyrion doesn't conveniently die, LF has his 'Plan B' already in place.

If this is the case, that's why he is unconcerned about Sansa being able to marry...and it doesn't seem to be bothering him in the slightest.

He wants her for himself...badly...but she's his biggest bargaining chip and he needs to be able to offer her to gain leverage and solidify his status. Otherwise, I think he would have already done the deed.

I don't think Sansa will ever marry Harry though..it isn't GRRM's style. fAegon probably isn't an option either because of the political conflicts between the houses involved....but it could be another R+L situation where they elope. That makes more sense than a formal betrothal and marriage.

Jon has been mentioned and while that would be an interesting twist, it doesn't really do anything politically...Jon will already have the North and that's where her claim lies.

I don't know where she will end up, but I feel certain whoever she ends up with, it will be someone of her own choosing and not someone chosen for her.

[Wouter]

I know the quote. It makes sense to me he would put greater emphazis on Tysha, because he found out she never had never betrayed him as he had thought, which would make her the only person in the world who loved him and stayed true to him. Also it would be strange for Tyrion to miss Sansa. Tysha, Shae and Jaime gave him happiness, albeit short-lived. Sansa, from his POV, is that cold, unreadable girl, who told him she'll never want him, made him feel awkward and cried at night. There was nothing to miss about their relationship.

I agree that it seems weird that he would miss Sansa, but I want to stress that the quote, as it is printed in ADWD, is very weird grammatically if he is talking about Tysha. Which is why I think Martin is hinting at Tyrion missing Sansa anyway.

And he may miss something else then Winterfell about their relationship: he probably misses having a pretty, young, softspoken and highborn wife. After all, his father had it drilled into him that no highborn lord would ever give the hand of his daughter to Tyrion. Sansa was, supposedly, his only chance at that.

I also think that if the quote refers to her (the "hardly knew" part), he feels that he underestimated Sansa as he never suspected she was preparing her escape.

I agree with Mikkel that Tyrion wouldn't want Winterfell anymore. Straight for Casterly Rock now, is my guess, or to wherever Dany may point him if/once they ally.

While Varys and Littlefinger both have manipulated many things that have taken place, it is they just adapt to what actually happens. Aegon on the Iron Throne is what matters to Varys and he will/should get Dorne as he is supposed nephew of Doran but he needs more, The Vale, where there are fighting men who have not been used in combat (fresh knights and soldiers) Sansa is the supposed daughter of the lord protector of the Vale. There is most certainly a possiblity that this will happen. I think Littlefinger wants Sansa for himself but if he HAS to marry her to someone to solidify his own future, better the King of Westeros then a douchebag named Harrold Hardying who has already expressed his dislike for him.

Varys is aware that having Sansa as Aegon's wife would allow LF to meddle with things, and he also is likely to be aware that LF ultimately would want to marry (or at least have a sexual,relationship with) Sansa himself. Which would mean trouble for Aegon, either way, as LF would probably sooner or later attempt to get rid of him in favour of his queen and her children. I only would see Varys going for that if LF has met with an unfortunate accident beforehand.

If Sansa drops Harry and Robert Arryn to marry (f)Aegon, then the Vale soldiers would have little reason to follow her and bring their swords, unless they were already fully planning to do so. Royce, Redfort and co are loyal to Arryn, not to Sansa personally. That leaves the men who have been bought by LF (Grafton, Corbray and co), which is again something Varys would rather not want near Aegon.

Furthermore, it is more important for Aegon to get support of Dorne now than to get (uncertain and divided) support of the Vale tomorrow. Dorne's armies are ready and waiting near Aegon's position, while a Tyrell army is coming south to deal with the Golden Company. It is crucial that Dorne enters the war, and on the right side. The problem for Aegon is, Doran is not a fool and will not just simply believe this is his nephew; he is aware that false goods may be sold. A marriage pact would help a lot to smooth any doubts over though; even if Aegon is a fake pretender his heirs will be Martells anyway, so it's all good. This is especially true once Dorne learns about Quentyn's dead and Dany's disappearance, which would make (f)Aegon a desirable ally even if they fully realise he is most likely not Elia's son.

[Wouter]

"Wherever whores go" In think this quote is significant...... and who has the best stable of whores in Westeros?

What if....LF actually has the real Tysha?

A marriage can only be annulled by a High Septon...not your garden variety septons... and Tywin wouldn't have jumped through those hoops to annul the marriage of his already embarrassing son. He would have swept this under the rug using power and money. Tysha could have been shipped off to a brothel and LF discovered the plot. (I do not think he would have been in on it from the get-go...he's not old enough)

I suspect LF's "plan B" if Tyrion doesn't die by himself, is to assist a bit in the dying. He can afford to hire all kinds of assassins, and may already have been behind the attempt at the Blackwater.

As for Tysha's marriage, it was performed by a drunk septon bought by Tyrion, IIRC. Both Tyrion and Tysha were minors, who probably cannot marry without permission from their guardians (at least for the noble Tyrion). Didn't Tywin just have the whole thing declared null and void after the sobered septon had confessed the whole thing? There was also no witnesses but the septon. The High Septon and his acolytes also didn't object to Tyrion's new marriage, indicating there were no legal/religious problems.

I think the Tysha marriage is considered to never have been valid in the first place.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

I suspect LF's "plan B" if Tyrion doesn't die by himself, is to assist a bit in the dying. He can afford to hire all kinds of assassins, and may already have been behind the attempt at the Blackwater.

LF wasn't a part of that. He needed Tyrion to take the fall. He manipulated Joff into getting the jousting dwarfs just to anger Tyrion and if he was going to off him at the Blackwater, that wouldn't have been an issue. He knew that Cersei would be blind to any other option and it would drive her crazier than she already was.

[Harry the Hair]

But that's impossible, it's much more likely he would want Casterly Rock, no? I mean he can hardly come back to Westeros in the current political climate anyway. I know Tyrion liked the idea of ruling Winterfell through Sansa, so it's not like he is against the idea in general, but it always felt like it would be a consolation prize, instead of Casterly Rock which is/was rightfully his.

I feel like if he won't find Tysha, then he'll settle for Sansa in the hope that his eldest son by her would inherit the Rock and a second son would get Winterfell.

[Wouter]

LF wasn't a part of that. He needed Tyrion to take the fall. He manipulated Joff into getting the jousting dwarfs just to anger Tyrion and if he was going to off him at the Blackwater, that wouldn't have been an issue. He knew that Cersei would be blind to any other option and it would drive her crazier than she already was.

The Blackwater was long before Tyrion even married Sansa; Tyrion probably wasn't yet chosen as convenient fall-guy, yet.

LF's motive could have been connected to the "test" Tyrion did, when he proposed marrying Myrcella to Robert Arryn (a false offer, designed to lure LF out).

After the attempt failed, the marriage happened. Which would give LF ample reason to try again, and also opened possibilities to let Tyrion take the blame while also implicating Sansa at the same time. Which is good for LF, since it would bind Sansa tighter to him.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

As for Tysha's marriage, it was performed by a drunk septon bought by Tyrion, IIRC. Both Tyrion and Tysha were minors, who probably cannot marry without permission from their guardians (at least for the noble Tyrion). Didn't Tywin just have the whole thing declared null and void after the sobered septon had confessed the whole thing? There was also no witnesses but the septon. The High Septon and his acolytes also didn't object to Tyrion's new marriage, indicating there were no legal/religious problems.

I think the Tysha marriage is considered to never have been valid in the first place.

The (old) High Septon and his acolytes didn't object because they neither knew about it, nor did they particularly care about their own laws. Not the case anymore and the High Sparrow may learn of it.

A marriage to be considered never having been valid in the first place is called "annulled". That's exactly what the annullment does, and exactly what requires the High Septon or Council of Faith, whom Tywin did not consult.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

The old High Septon might not have known about the Tysha marriage - that seems to have been something that Tywin did his best to hush up. And even if he did, he (the Septon) would be afraid enough of Tywin to not say anything.

History provides many examples of marriages that were considered valid until politics or infertility dictated an annulment due to a newly discovered "impediment" (Henry VIII's marriage to Catherine of Aragon being one of the better known examples). If Littlefinger, Aegon, Sansa, Tyrion, Dany or any combination of the above don't want Sansa and Tyrion to be married anymore and have enough power to force the issue, an annulment will be procured. Even in cultures where "marry for life" is the letter of the law, it could usually be worked around somehow.

[Mikkel]

A marriage to be considered never having been valid in the first place is called "annulled". That's exactly what the annullment does, and exactly what requires the High Septon or Council of Faith, whom Tywin did not consult.

If some peasant walks up to a nobleman and says "yo, I married your daughter yesterday muh'Lord" it doesn't require the High Septon's involvement for the nobleman to go "no you didn't, piss off !". Okay, it's not a great example but my point is, there is a certain threshold before the marriage "counts" in the first place, and then it will require an annulment to be abolished. After questioning the Septon, Tywin didn't seem to think that threshold was met, maybe there are legalities such as Tywin needing to give his consent (what with Tyrion not being old enough), or similar.

Of course Tywin may have been wrong in that judgment, because while it was almost certainly within his power to get an annulment from the old, corrupt High Septon, I'm sure he would much prefer the whole thing go away quietly rather than risk being laughed at.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

If some peasant walks up to a nobleman and says "yo, I married your daughter yesterday muh'Lord" it doesn't require the High Septon's involvement for the nobleman to go "no you didn't, piss off !". Okay, it's not a great example but my point is, there is a certain threshold before the marriage "counts" in the first place, and then it will require an annulment to be abolished. After questioning the Septon, Tywin didn't seem to think that threshold was met, maybe there are legalities such as Tywin needing to give his consent (what with Tyrion not being old enough), or similar.

Of course Tywin may have been wrong in that judgment, because while it was almost certainly within his power to get an annulment from the old, corrupt High Septon, I'm sure he would much prefer the whole thing go away quietly rather than risk being laughed at.

Well, the nobleman has two options: Go to the High Septons and get the formalities done - or hang the culprit and hush it up.

Any marriage performed by a septon is subject to the laws of the Faith. Anybody wishing to determine whether it's valid has to go for a trial before the court specified by the laws of the Faith. The only court allowed to try marriages in any way involves the High Septon or a Council of Faith.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Tyrion was a minor and had no power of his own. Tysha was a peasant, also a minor, with no powerful family to speak for her. Tywin didn't even have to annul the marriage - he could just terrify Tysha and Tyrion into saying it never happened - but that doesn't mean someone else can't use the Tysha marriage to invalidate the Sansa marriage.

This is what we know Tywin did: had Tysha gang-raped and sent away. If she ever tries saying "I was married to Tyrion Lannister" it could be dismissed as the ravings of a crazy woman or the schemings of a gold digger. Likewise, Tyrion was told that Tysha was a whore paid to humiliate him. So Tywin has it sewn up that neither Tysha nor Tyrion will say the marriage was valid. Was there a proper annulment or just Tywin (who is NOT a septon) forcing everyone into compliance? It seems like the latter.

But now Tywin is dead, Cersei disgraced and removed from power, Tyrion escaped and exiled. Everyone who has an interest in Sansa staying married to Tyrion is dead, disgraced, or disappeared. The Tyrells might well think it expedient to annul Sansa's marriage in order to marry her to Willas for real this time. Aegon, should he become king, might want to seek an alliance with the North/Riverlands/Vale and marry Sansa (after all, he doesn't need to marry Arianne to have Dorne, since he's [allegedly] Elia Martell's son). Littlefinger, of course, has his own marriage plans for Sansa.

If Aegon becomes king, he could have the Tyrion marriage annulled with no problem without a "Tysha." But LF could produce a "Tysha" from one of his brothels and then say, "The Lannister marriage is not valid, Tyrion was already married ty Tysha here, and Tywin didn't bother with an official annulment, he just scared everyone into complying with him in his own special Tywin Lannister way. Here's Tysha to testify how she's the real Lady Lannister."

[Mikkel]

Well, the nobleman has two options: Go to the High Septons and get the formalities done - or hang the culprit and hush it up.

Any marriage performed by a septon is subject to the laws of the Faith. Anybody wishing to determine whether it's valid has to go for a trial before the court specified by the laws of the Faith. The only court allowed to try marriages in any way involves the High Septon or a Council of Faith.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that - I certainly think there's room for interpretation on whether the marriage can be said to have occurred at all before the High Septon needs to become involved. I could be wrong, and I certainly can't say whether it applies specifically to the Tysha/Tyrion situation - we simply don't have enough info.