[TWOW Spoilers] Alayne I, v. 2

[messem]

As to Ser Shadrich, this line intrigued me:

“A mouse with wings would be a silly sight.”

In German however there is just such a thing; a fledermaus or flying mouse - a bat.

I'm annoyed. Annoyed that I didn't notice that. Well done.

[Slowpoke Martin]

Why is everyone calling Harry a jerk? The guy cares about his children and their mothers. He is the heir to the Vale, I doubt anyone would be happy about being betrothed to Littlefinger's bastard.

Sansa seems more of a puppet than ever, she does what Littlefinger tells her and has the personality of Myranda Royce.

Alayne seems more of a mirror to Reek than anything else. She has completely lost sight of who she was and is being forged into someone else.

[Colonel Green]

As many others have pointed out, this chapter is in need of editing, even for simple typos. I think George released it, like Mercy, so that the book readers wouldn't be spoiled by the show, but that he hasn't gotten beyond his rough draft yet. The total length of the chapter once published could be very different.

The chapter was originally going to be in ADWD, but was removed very late in the development process. This is almost certainly it's final form, minus a few typos.

He absolutely has, but the fact remains that nobody has found anything controversial about it, so we must wonder if some parts of this chapter have been omitted.

No, we don't. Elio explained why he said it might be controversial, and also that that quote had become massively overhyped by the article and in the fandom.

[messem]

Alayne seems more of a mirror to Reek than anything else. She has completely lost sight of who she was and is being forged into someone else.

Has she?

No man can wed me so long as my dwarf husband still lives somewhere in this world.

Alayne loved it here. She felt alive again, for the first since her father… since Lord Eddard Stark had died.

For just a little while, as she ran, she forget who she was, and where, and found herself remembering bright cold days at Winterfell, when she would race through Winterfell with her friend Jeyne Poole, with Arya running after them trying to keep up.

At least thrice in this chapter she realizes exactly who she is.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

I still see a very thin chance of Harry being one of good old Bobby's bastards, why not?? bank on it folks...

A different gamble is guessing who Sansa will end up with...

Harry is arrogant, but Sansa has feelings for Sandor Clegane so... if we go by that angle, even Darkstar has a chance...

[Colonel Green]

At least thrice in this chapter she realizes exactly who she is.

One of the biggest differences I found between this chapter and where we left Sansa in AFFC is, indeed, the "Sansa" side of her personality is much more in evidence than it was in the earlier book. Her arc in AFFC was about the gradual suppression of her old self, but here she thinks about her father, siblings and Jeyne Poole pretty freely and without much in the way of internal struggle.

I still see a very thin chance of Harry being one of good old Bobby's bastards, why not??

Because, unlike all of Robert's other bastards, he looks nothing like him?

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Because, unlike all of Robert's other bastards, he looks nothing like him?

That black hair rule doesn't hold much ground for me... only 8 of his bastards are known, so there is a possibility that a few of them don't look like Robert Jr.

[juanml82]

Not sure what was controversial about that chapter, but after thinking about it I feel certain that Sweetrobin is indeed LF's biological son.

Sweetrobin's description from the wiki: Robert is a sickly, whiny, and spoilt child of six. He is small and pale with brown hair and big eyes. His hair later grows very long.

Lysa's description from the wiki: Lysa is thick of body, pale and puffy of face. She has the blue eyes of the Tullys and a small, petulant mouth. She has long, thick, auburn hair.

LF's description from the wiki: A short man of slender build, with sharp features, Petyr has gray-green eyes, a small pointed beard on his chin, and threads of grey running throughout his dark hair.

HtH's description from the chapter: Ser Harrold Hardyng looked every inch a lord-in-waiting; clean-limbed and handsome, straight as a lance, hard with muscle. Men old enough to have known Jon Arryn in his youth said Ser Harrold had his look, she knew. He had a mop of sandy blond hair, pale blue eyes, an aquiline nose.

Sansa playing with Sweetrobin's hair early in the chapter than the later description of HtH has convinced me LF is indeed Sweetrobin's father. I don't see how a man that looked like HtH and a woman that looked like Lysa produced a child that looked like Sweetrobin. I'm not really sure if it means anything though. Funny, I hadn't given this much thought before reading this chapter.

Men of honor will do things for their children that they would never consider doing for themselves

Of course, Littlefinger is not a man of honor, but could it be that Robert Arryn is his real motivation?

When did that happen?

Well, as a rule of a thumb, you don't put knives in a girl's neck.

But that's just me.

Why is everyone calling Harry a jerk? The guy cares about his children and their mothers. He is the heir to the Vale, I doubt anyone would be happy about being betrothed to Littlefinger's bastard.

Sansa seems more of a puppet than ever, she does what Littlefinger tells her and has the personality of Myranda Royce.

Alayne seems more of a mirror to Reek than anything else. She has completely lost sight of who she was and is being forged into someone else.

And who was she? A scared little girl in King's Landing, repeating courtesies like a parrot out of fear of getting beaten?

Also, how much more does Sansa needs to learn from Littlefinger? She seems to be getting the gist of it and we know what happens to mentors once their pupils have no need of them. If they don't get separated for some reason, I fear we may be seeing the last living months of Petyr Baelish.

So sad.

[Colonel Green]

Also, how much more does Sansa needs to learn from Littlefinger? She seems to be getting the gist of it and we know what happens to mentors once their pupils have no need of them. If they don't get separated for some reason, I fear we may be seeing the last living months of Petyr Baelish.

So sad.

The difference between Littlefinger and many other mentors is that he isn't just a mentor, he's also the villain (unbeknownst to Sansa, to a large extent).

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

So sad.

Also, how much more does Sansa needs to learn from Littlefinger? She seems to be getting the gist of it and we know what happens to mentors once their pupils have no need of them. If they don't get separated for some reason, I fear we may be seeing the last living months of Petyr Baelish.

Yeah, I agree. Sansa's getting to a position very soon where she'll be able to hold her own in the Eyrie without LF.

[Raksha 2014]

Again, why do people hate Harry but love shipping Sandor and Sansa? I like him too as acharacter, but he nearly raped her.

I'm a definite Sansa fan, and find her relationship to Sandor to be interesting; but I have never 'shipped' them, at least not long-term or definitely. Sandor as we have not known him is not good marriage or romance material with anyone; he's extremely emotionally immature, has huge trust issues and a tendency to over-compensate with temper or violence, and he's also an alcoholic.

If Sandor were to change, calm down a bit, moderate the alcoholism and control his temper, he might be able to become a romantic partner to Sansa. But she probably won't be the innocent, helpless little bird he wanted to help and save (and also to rape, although this might have been a momentary impulse, considering he was dissuaded from the dreadful act fairly easily, and I don't think he's in the habit of raping women/girls); Sandor may not feel the same attraction to her or the urge to protect her. And Sansa might be looking for other qualities in a suitor by the time she encounters him again (and I think she will encounter him again). We don't know. It could also be that if Sandor can still be an effective fighter, Sansa may yet need him. But Sansa at 25, ten years in the future, could just as easily be romantically involved with or married to Tyrion (still), Harry, Sweetrobin, Petyr, or others, or not involved with anyone, or dead.

Right now, in light of this chapter, I'm wondering if Sweetrobin is not only going to beat the odds and live to grow up but eventually marry Sansa. That bit about her mentioning his hair (again) and then thinking that Sweetrobin's tentative future wife will admire his hair seems like overkill unless it is foreshadowing of some sort; unless there have been other ladies/girls of the Eyrie/Vale who have noticed the poor kid's pretty hair. And I remember Sansa's thoughts, during that ghastly wedding night with Tyrion, about Septa Mordane's telling her, in regards to wedding nights and naked bridegrooms, that every man has one attractive physical feature. But I'm certainly not betting on it, Sansa is still probably only 14 (and Robert Arryn is only what, 9 or 10?) and has a lot more growing up to do, and her situation, as well as that of the Vale and all of Westeros, too volatile at the moment to definitely forecast such predictions.

[Pod The Rod]

Also, how much more does Sansa needs to learn from Littlefinger? She seems to be getting the gist of it and we know what happens to mentors once their pupils have no need of them. If they don't get separated for some reason, I fear we may be seeing the last living months of Petyr Baelish.

So sad.

You FEAR? Baelish gave all of Westeros the Littlefinger. He's responsible more than any other individual for the War of the Five Kings and the destruction of House Stark. I'd be overjoyed to see the fucker trade places with Theon. Sadly, his eventual fate is going to be a lot kinder than that.

[Black Crow]

I'm annoyed. Annoyed that I didn't notice that. Well done.

Its perhaps also worth noting that both Ser Shadrich and Mad Danelle Lothston are described as red-haired.

[Boarsbane]

That black hair rule doesn't hold much ground for me... only 8 of his bastards are known, so there is a possibility that a few of them don't look like Robert Jr.

No one even remotely suspects it and Robert isn't the type to conceal his affairs, plus he is specifically compared to Jon Arryn in appearance, not Robert Baratheon.

[DarkSister1001]

Its perhaps also worth noting that both Ser Shadrich and Mad Danelle Lothston are described as red-haired.

And they share the "Mad" moniker.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

No one even remotely suspects it and Robert isn't the type to conceal his affairs plus he is specifically compared to Jon Arryn in appearance, not Robert Baratheon.

He's maternal grandmother was Jon´s sister, so he can very well look like Jon aswell... and Bob was very connected to the Vale, like i said personal belief, and a thin one...

Maybe because of his physical description, eyes can also be Arryn's, but the rest along with references to his full white smile and bursting laughs makes me suspect Bob was fooling around with Arryn's relatives... then again, he can have bastards as far as Asshai... waiting a long time for Winds = Crappy Crackpots, forget it, keep the discussion folks

[bemused]

I love the fledermaus hint, nice catch! ... and of course Danelle Lothson's red hair came to mind right away after that. ..and we remember Sansa's Whent heritage.. all pretty interesting.

I never gave the HR=MM possibility much credence before - it seemed mostly to be based on Shadrich's size , and I didn't think that was enough . Now I find the idea intriguing ...

ETA: ... Yup! Mad Danelle, Mad Mouse ... I'm loving it.

[Ghosts Lunch]

As to Ser Shadrich, this line intrigued me:

“A mouse with wings would be a silly sight.”

In German however there is just such a thing; a fledermaus or flying mouse - a bat.

And oddly enough the "extinct" House Lothston, one-time Lords of Harrelhal had the bat as their sigil - and an evil reputation, with Lady Danelle seemingly modelled on Countess Bathory. She was also an ally of Bloodraven and supposedly the last of her line.

http://awoiaf.wester...anelle_Lothston

Interesting. And Harrenhal was the place of another important tourney. Eff it, calling it now, Shadrich = Howland Reed. :)

Great stuff

People are going on about Sandor but IMO like Arya with Cats she is adjusting focus to include bats. I so reckon she'll end up Warging Bats or something. Eg Sansa Stark = Lady/Sandor and Alayne = Bats

Also I'm not quite sure her relationship with Sandor is like a Beauty and Beast romance as such, rather it seems to be more like a relationship between Stark and warg animal

Sweetrobin is interesting here, he could end up being a major backer of Sansa/Alayne based in Harrenhall, perhaps as some kind of Queen figure?

Interestingly as people have pointed out, if someone says something to in he repeats they said it, eg Alayne says person X (brains nap) should keep their mouth shut.

Sweetrobin knows about HtH's perspective another way, through his dreams IMO,

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Its perhaps also worth noting that both Ser Shadrich and Mad Danelle Lothston are described as red-haired.

Oh, I'm fully in the Sansa = Danelle reborn camp (at least figuratively). There's just too many connections at this point.

1) The bat of Lothson and Whent

2) Red hair

3) Harrenhall connection matrilineally

4) "Widowhood"

5) Danelle's bath linking Jamie and Brienne

6) Brienne's sword and shield

7) Legitimized Alayne's inheritance prospects

8) 9 winged companions (Sweetrobin and his Winged Knights) like the Whent sigil.

I'm just speculating, but Sweetrobin is already in love with Alayne and doesn't care that she's a bastard. If Lord Sweetrobin becomes King Sweetrobin (he doesn't seem to like Tommen), he could legitimize Alayne in order to try to marry her. Alayne would then get Harrenhal if Littlefinger died.

Ser Shadrich's connection is interesting. Littlefinger had quite a few Kingsguard with him. It would be interesting if Varys had a few of Sweetrobin's.

[DarkSister1001]

I love the fledermaus hint, nice catch! ... and of course Danelle Lothson's red hair came to mind right away after that. ..and we remember Sansa's Whent heritage.. all pretty interesting.

I never gave the HR=MM possibility much credence before - it seemed mostly to be based on Shadrich's size , and I didn't think that was enough . Now I find the idea intriguing ...

ETA: ... Yup! Mad Danelle, Mad Mouse ... I'm loving it.

I wouldn't even put it past Martin to have him be Sansa's "savior" only to see that she and LF are so alike (bc of her acting skills) and to abandon her. That would be a fun twist.