Just how controversial was the Sansa chapter?

[Emanresu]

It wasn't "controversial" in the way most (including me) had speculated; however it does involve a significant development in her character - more knowing, though still quite naïve in some ways, and she may develop further. We were promised something for fans of lemoncakes and the biggest lemoncake ever appeared in the chapter so I tend to think this is "the" chapter we've all been overextrapolating about.

[Gertrude]

Its either stupid or a disloyal traitor who deeply damaged her house with her betrayal, and I would prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt.

How about naive? Inexperienced? Sheltered? Self-centered? All of those things could describe the situation without resorting to extremes.

[Crow's eye in the sky]

Ran said something along the lines of "it might be controversial in some quarters of the fandom", which people blew out of proportion and used as fodder for their poison/rape theories.

Turns out that the controversy (that some people may experience) is Sansa's increased sexuality and the fact that it's used on Harry rather than the much more speculated about Littlefinger.

Because god forbid that she flirt with someone closer to her age, rather than someone twenty years older who could write a few Ehows on the fine points of backstabbing and evidence disposal.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

How about naive? Inexperienced? Sheltered? Self-centered? All of those things could describe the situation without resorting to extremes.

Not to mention eleven years old. Eleven. Not even a teenager. I wonder how many people who think Sansa is a "traitor" are in favor of trying a juvenile as an adult - because eleven isn't "of age" even in the ASOIAF universe (sixteen is the age of adulthood).

Sansa is a child and her actions should be evaluated in that light.

Back on topic, the "controversy" is a big nothing as far as I am concerned. I enjoyed the chapter very much because I am a Sansa fan, but I saw no controversy except "how do you get a twelve-foot-tall pastry from oven to table?" There must have been a hell of a lot of fondant to hold it up! :lol:

[Harry the Hair]

Not to mention eleven years old. Eleven. Not even a teenager. I wonder how many people who think Sansa is a "traitor" are in favor of trying a juvenile as an adult - because eleven isn't "of age" even in the ASOIAF universe (sixteen is the age of adulthood).

Sansa is a child and her actions should be evaluated in that light.

Back on topic, the "controversy" is a big nothing as far as I am concerned. I enjoyed the chapter very much because I am a Sansa fan, but I saw no controversy except "how do you get a twelve-foot-tall pastry from oven to table?" There must have been a hell of a lot of fondant to hold it up! :lol:

Lemoncake fans definitely enjoyed it. :P

[Maya Stone]

As much as everyone spoke about the controversial Sansa chapter, I was seriously expecting littlefinger to grope/rape Sansa down in the vaults when he was telling her how to seduce Harry. I was dreading it, and then I was relieved yet also confused when it ended without even one of their awkward kisses.

I think the controversial parts could be:

-The mutual trust between Sansa and Littlefinger and their close relationship, even after all what Liftlefinger did to her family (I know Sansa doesn't know that, but she still knows he's a dangerous man. And what are Littlefinger's real intentions?)

-Sansa beginning to become a player and becoming smarter

-Sansa getting used to her Alayne identity and lying easily, especially about Marillion

-Sansa trying to seduce Harry

[YouKnowNothingJonSnow]

Yeah, I'm kind of surprised as many people on here view Sansa as dumb and not having developed. Kind of stunning to me, really. Are these the folk that think the Hound is dead, Quentyn is alive, didn't notice Theon had been castrated, thought Brienne was dead after Feast, and Jon Snow is dead now?

Sansa has been showing a good bit of brains, and courage, for some time now. She's been skillfully manipulating SweetRobin for quite a while now. She was the one rallying the morale of the ladies during Stannis' siege on KL, doing Cersei's job for her. She saw what was in store for Ser Dontos and knew Joff well enough to manipulate him into letting him live as a fool. She had the courage to contemplate pushing Joff over the edge when shown her father's head. She saw what she had to do to survive in KL (I am loyal to my king Joffrey), and she did it. She's always been polite and good at courtesy and courtly things, she's now just expanded on that to more interactions. She has spent a significant time around Tyrion and LF and she's learned.

Even more stunning is the idea that she trusts LF? Are you mad? She believes she doesn't have any family left and is trying to weather the storm. She knows LF had the hots for her mom, and kind of has them for her as well. She's not in any immediate danger from LF as she knows she's central to his plans. Not unless she does something to really piss him off, that is. If there is one person she knows she doesn't want to piss off, it's LF. Not unless she's sure she can get away with it or get away. She's got real friends for the first time she left Winterfell (or maybe with the Tyrell's). She's got respect that she's earned in the Vale. What's she supposed to do? Burn all that down and run to Ramsay's arms at Winterfell? Yeesh. No. She should do exactly what she is doing, try to make the best of things where she is. Her mother and father are dead. Her older brother is dead. Winterfell is in ashes. Jon is at the Wall. She thinks both of her younger brothers are dead. Riverrun is fallen. Arya is likely dead. As much as we hate to admit it, this is the best Sansa has had it since the Starks rode south.

But most stunning of all is the fact that someone thought this chapter was controversial.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

On a scale of 1-10, it was a -20 on the controversial scale. It seems that comment was directed mostly at Sansa, Sandor shippers.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Yeah, I'm kind of surprised as many people on here view Sansa as dumb and not having developed. Kind of stunning to me, really. Are these the folk that think the Hound is dead, Quentyn is alive, didn't notice Theon had been castrated, thought Brienne was dead after Feast, and Jon Snow is dead now?

Sansa has been showing a good bit of brains, and courage, for some time now. She's been skillfully manipulating SweetRobin for quite a while now. She was the one rallying the morale of the ladies during Stannis' siege on KL, doing Cersei's job for her. She saw what was in store for Ser Dontos and knew Joff well enough to manipulate him into letting him live as a fool. She had the courage to contemplate pushing Joff over the edge when shown her father's head. She saw what she had to do to survive in KL (I am loyal to my king Joffrey), and she did it. She's always been polite and good at courtesy and courtly things, she's now just expanded on that to more interactions. She has spent a significant time around Tyrion and LF and she's learned.

Even more stunning is the idea that she trusts LF? Are you mad? She believes she doesn't have any family left and is trying to weather the storm. She knows LF had the hots for her mom, and kind of has them for her as well. She's not in any immediate danger from LF as she knows she's central to his plans. Not unless she does something to really piss him off, that is. If there is one person she knows she doesn't want to piss off, it's LF. Not unless she's sure she can get away with it or get away. She's got real friends for the first time she left Winterfell (or maybe with the Tyrell's). She's got respect that she's earned in the Vale. What's she supposed to do? Burn all that down and run to Ramsay's arms at Winterfell? Yeesh. No. She should do exactly what she is doing, try to make the best of things where she is. Her mother and father are dead. Her older brother is dead. Winterfell is in ashes. Jon is at the Wall. She thinks both of her younger brothers are dead. Riverrun is fallen. Arya is likely dead. As much as we hate to admit it, this is the best Sansa has had it since the Starks rode south.

But most stunning of all is the fact that someone thought this chapter was controversial.

:agree:

(There are people who think Quentyn is alive? Wasn't he quite obviously dragon-grilled at the end of ADWD? :stunned: )

I think our collective leg might have been pulled as far as the controversy is concerned. I like the character development and seeing what is going on in the Vale - there's all kinds of things I think will be relevant to the plot later on. But precious little controversy - certainly nothing like Sansa poisoning Sweetrobin, or being raped by Littlefinger, or killing Jeyne Westerling (!!!!) - that I've seen bandied about.

[The Drunkard]

Because god forbid that she flirt with someone closer to her age, rather than someone twenty years older who could write a few Ehows on the fine points of backstabbing and evidence disposal.

What's appropriate or gross or healthy is fairly irrelevant and not what he meant by controversial.

[juanml82]

It is not that controvertial but i think there is one other chapter that this one was released in order to "prepare" us for. In other words, Our Sansa is approaching an area that could get out of control and cause more ramifications than she is comprehending. If given half a chance, This Harry would take her without her full consent. I hate it but I think book Sansa is simply an upgraded tool being used by a different craftsman. Cersei was the first and Baelish is the second and new one. Book Sansa is still at Littlefinger's mercy and she is being loyal to him as if he was her real father, which, really pisses me and everyone off because we know what he has done and by now, after learning what he did to poor Jon Arryn, Sansa should realize too. Damn this girl falls for a handsome Knight/lord every fucking time, douche or not. Harry the heir is exactly what others said, Robert 2.0 . The way he discussed the mothers of his children is embarrasing to me as a male and it seems Sansa (I hope I am wrong) seems suckered in, willingly.

Harry was never described as a rapist.

Book Sansa has a hairnet full of poison she can use to dispose of Littlefinger whenever she wants.

GRRM left Sansa's motivations out of the prose. We don't know if she's acting out of loyalty to LF, if she's already planning to jump ship and needs the marriage for that, or something else.

Sansa has not fallen for Harry. Her attempts to seduce him seem more businesslike than romantic. She specifically doesn't like him.

Sansa asked him about his bastards. If she didn't like the answer, she shouldn't have asked.

I guess I call her stupid because I really want to like her and the alternative to saying she is stupid is saying she sold out her entire family for Joffrey and Cerseis approval.

Its either stupid or a disloyal traitor who deeply damaged her house with her betrayal, and I would prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt.

She sold out her family out of willful ignorance (a recurring thing in Sansa's arc) and in order to become a Queen. Even when she's smitten with Joffrey, she keeps mentioning her becoming Queen in one way or another. And that's not something she could be blamed about. After all, turning into a Queen would put her atop the Westerosi food chain.

[BitsOfBrains]

How about naive? Inexperienced? Sheltered? Self-centered? All of those things could describe the situation without resorting to extremes.

I agree she is also all of those things in addition to stupid. Sorry but I just don't have another word for someone who turns on their father and sister in hopes of gaining approval from people who have proven themselves to be bad people. Like if she hadn't already witnessed all kinds of scumbaggery from the Lanisters I could write it off as a young girls misjudgments but after the Butchers Boy incident and other Joffrey scenes, no way.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Gala]

Yeah, I'm kind of surprised as many people on here view Sansa as dumb and not having developed. Kind of stunning to me, really. Are these the folk that think the Hound is dead, Quentyn is alive, didn't notice Theon had been castrated, thought Brienne was dead after Feast, and Jon Snow is dead now?

Sansa has been showing a good bit of brains, and courage, for some time now. She's been skillfully manipulating SweetRobin for quite a while now. She was the one rallying the morale of the ladies during Stannis' siege on KL, doing Cersei's job for her. She saw what was in store for Ser Dontos and knew Joff well enough to manipulate him into letting him live as a fool. She had the courage to contemplate pushing Joff over the edge when shown her father's head. She saw what she had to do to survive in KL (I am loyal to my king Joffrey), and she did it. She's always been polite and good at courtesy and courtly things, she's now just expanded on that to more interactions. She has spent a significant time around Tyrion and LF and she's learned.

Even more stunning is the idea that she trusts LF? Are you mad? She believes she doesn't have any family left and is trying to weather the storm. She knows LF had the hots for her mom, and kind of has them for her as well. She's not in any immediate danger from LF as she knows she's central to his plans. Not unless she does something to really piss him off, that is. If there is one person she knows she doesn't want to piss off, it's LF. Not unless she's sure she can get away with it or get away. She's got real friends for the first time she left Winterfell (or maybe with the Tyrell's). She's got respect that she's earned in the Vale. What's she supposed to do? Burn all that down and run to Ramsay's arms at Winterfell? Yeesh. No. She should do exactly what she is doing, try to make the best of things where she is. Her mother and father are dead. Her older brother is dead. Winterfell is in ashes. Jon is at the Wall. She thinks both of her younger brothers are dead. Riverrun is fallen. Arya is likely dead. As much as we hate to admit it, this is the best Sansa has had it since the Starks rode south.

But most stunning of all is the fact that someone thought this chapter was controversial.

:agree:

I've been wondering that her conversation with Harry during dancing somehow reminded me of Lyanna's conversation with Ned about Robert's bastard daughter (who ironically is in the Vale too right now). In this dialogue she was not only charming Harry the way LF told her, she was testing him, what he will do and say (he called her a bastard in public and at the same time has a bastard daughter himself). I must admit she played him well, a little bit of Myranda in her behaviour here.

I wonder if Lyanna had the same kind of conversation with Robert, but I doubt that.

I also think that Harry really liked Sansa, probably even he became interested in her when she was hanging out with the other "suitors". When he described his lover Saffron it was practically Sansa except for the eyes colour: "Tall and slim, with big brown eyes and hair like honey."

[Satin fetch me a cock!]

About as controversial as the Pope leading a prayer. I have watched Scooby-Doo episodes with more controversy.

It would have been a good chapter if it wasn't over sold. I was expecting a rape, murder, or something and all I got was a witty comeback. It was a soft 2 as far as controversy. I give it a 2 because of the controversy caused over it not being controversial!

[Stig Johansen]

Sansa being forcd to marry Walder Frey, I am guessing. and al the joys that comes with that bit.

[Kyll.Ing.]

Oh, we can find controversy there, if we just look deep enough:

I might as well slap on the sarcasm warning here and now.

- Sansa breaking her "ladylike" character by running through the castle. This is a gross derailment of her character arc.

- Harry the Heir being described basically as "Jon Arryn come again" - including a mop of sandy brown hair. We have to assume Jon had the same hair colour, and Lysa's hair was constantly described as auburn, so where the heck did Sweetrobin Arryn get his brown hair from?

- The bakers using up every lemon in the Vale. That means, no more lemoncake from now on. This will have enormous implications. I doubt Sansa would survive for long on whatever remains of the cake after the feast, if anything.

- Sansa wishing death on Harry the Heir. Or worse, public embarrassment.

- The tapestries turning out to be rather mundane.

- Uther Shett's name. I understand the need to give him a name matching his character, but was there a need to call him an utter sh!t?

All in all, I'm very worked up after this character. I'm this close to ditch the entire ASoIaF thing because of it. Shenanigans, I say! Shenanigans!

[Queen.Sansa.Lannister]

The only thing I found controversial is that she seems to be a completely different character.

All of a sudden she isn't stupid anymore?

Someones IQ doesn't jump substantial because they spend a few months hanging with a smart person.

It would be like if Hodor all of a sudden starting reciting poetry.

Sansa has never been stupid. Or did you forget she was eleven years old when the series started, and she's growing up now? Or that she survived completely on her own in KL by using her mind.

[Dorian Martell]

Ran is experienced enough to understand that a subset of fan nerds wouldn't be able to handle Sansa showing the slightest control and use of her sexuality to further a set of goals. That is all

[Masha]

Just curious, how certain are we that the "controversial Sansa chapter" is the same one that GRRM just posted as Sample chapter?

Maybe its not the same chapter, this chapter seems pretty tame to me compared to earlier Sansa chapters in previous books...

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Just curious, how certain are we that the "controversial Sansa chapter" is the same one that GRRM just posted as Sample chapter?

Maybe its not the same chapter, this chapter seems pretty tame to me compared to earlier Sansa chapters in previous books...

Entirely certain: https://twitter.com/westerosorg/status/583624052989939713