So, P+L=R? (TWOW spoilers?)

[Harry the Hair]

When she talks about she "would have given him a son too", she seems quite convinced that she hasn't. It's a point of sorrow for her.

You could argue that Lysa herself isn't sure who the father is, so she would've liked to have given birth to a child that's definitely Petyr's. But I think I'm just grasping at straws here, it would make much more sense if no mystery dad was involved. When George says that Harry has Jon's look he could be referring to his build, cheekbones, jaw, eyes, nose, not necessarily hair color.

[littleRickon]

talking about dominant and recessive genes, keep in mind that very few traits in humans are decided by a single gene.

Blood type is one, so there the calculations make sense, and if e.g. Lysa was type 0 and Jon type A, Sweetrobin being type B would actually be evidence.

But hair color and eye color don't work the same way and I am pretty sure dark hair can also come from two light haired parents (even if less likely).

Not even in the GRRM universe does hair color seem to follow very simple genetics rules, otherwise all the population would have to be idiots not to see Jeoffrey and Tommen as non-Baratheons. It's made quite clear that the Baratheon black-hair-super-gene that supersedes all other genetic info is an exception.

[Maya Stone]

Maybe that's what Jon Arryn meant by "the seed is strong" holy shit plot twist

[lojzelote]

Perhaps this is the new, natural-feeling revelation twist George came up with, heh.

It would be funny if it was right, though. Jon "The Seed Is Strong" Arryn discovered that Cersei's children are bastards, based on haircolor, but didn't notice the same with his 'own' son, lol.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Ok, here's a real world "calculator". GRRM may or may not have used real world genetics, but I don't think it will be far of the mark.

Blond father and Red/Strawberry Blond haired mother will not produce a brown haired kid.

Blond father and brown haired mother have a 50% chance of producing a brown haired kid - but Lysa doesn't have brown hair.

Black haired father and Red/Strawberry blond/blond haired mother have a 100% possibility of producing a brown haired child

EDIT: Forgot the link :blushing:

http://dna.frieger.com/calc-quick.php

Unless the author explicitly thought of pheomelanin and eumelanin when determining the characters' hair colors, and used a two-genes co-dominance model, I can't see how that real world's model would be relevant.

BTW, according to this calculator, a lot of Robert Baratheon's bastards should be brown-haired: if you put "father - black, mother - blond/strawberry blond/read", the result is "brown - 100%". I don't know if it's correct in real life, but most certainly isn't within ASOIAF.

[Anima]

Perhaps this is the new, natural-feeling revelation twist George came up with, heh.

It would be funny if it was right, though. Jon "The Seed Is Strong" Arryn discovered that Cersei's children are bastards, based on haircolor, but didn't notice the same with his 'own' son, lol.

Maybe Jon Arryn started to investigate Robert Baratheon's children because he had doubts about his own son.

[Chinoiserie]

Just because Harry looks like Jon it does not mean they are completely similar looking. They could have different hair color. Lysa interpreted Jon's "The Seed is Strong" as reference to Robin.

[Not a Stark]

Lysa was obsessed with Petyr. If there was a slightest possibility that Sweetrobin was Petyr's son -- Lysa would hold onto it and persuade herself it was true even if it wasn't. Yet she never mentioned anything about it. And she was long insane and constantly confessing her very private thoughts and very wrong deeds.

So I'd rather buy that SR is not Lysa's child at all than believe that he is just not the child of Jon Aryn.

[Maia]

Lysa was obsessed with Petyr. If there was a slightest possibility that Sweetrobin was Petyr's son -- Lysa would hold onto it and persuade herself it was true even if it wasn't.

I agree. If it had been at all possible, she would have mentioned it when she was enumerating everything she had done for LF prior to her dive through the Moon Door. Instead, having been prevented from giving him a son was her her greatest regret.

And "auburn" hair is reddish-brown, not strawberry blond, so a brown-haired child would be entirely possible.

Also, people see what they want to see. On the one hand, there is a sickly little boy, son of an eccentric foreign woman whom the Valemen didn't really like or respect. And who is now under the thumb of a suspect parvenu with very recent Vale roots.

On the other, there is an adult, healthy, viril young man, who is one of them. Even Hardyngs, while a minor family, are very old, leave alone Waynwoods and Arryns. But his claim is much weaker. Of course, everybody who favors him would stress his "Arryn-like" traits. Doesn't mean that Jon Arryn had been blond as a young man. Not many would even remember what he had really looked like, since he was 70 when he died and Westeros doesn't seem to be into portraiture. People see what they want to see.

I'd also caution against too simplified view of human genetics iRL. It is possible for 2 blue-eyed parents to legitimately have a brown-eyed child, for example, though unlikely. There is a very rare brown allele that is recessive to the blue one, unlike the normal, common dominant brown.

It is even more complicated for hair/skin, because their colors are cumulative effects of dozens of genes. So, it is entirely possible for a child to be darker than both of the parents.

Not to mention the ever present possibility of mutations, etc.

[The Tower of Almond Joy]

When she talks about she "would have given him a son too", she seems quite convinced that she hasn't. It's a point of sorrow for her.

I was thinking the same thing too. She never spoke to LF about Robin being their son. If he was their son, don't you think she would use that to her advantage with LF? That being said, I still think LF is Robin's father.

My father had blond hair and light blue eyes. My Mum had coal dark black hair and brown eyes.

I have brown eyes and light brown/auburnish hair. They said my hair color was the same as my father's mother.

[howardh51]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125784-sweet-robin-lfs-son/

Good to see my theory picking up steam - as I've been bashed by the trollers on this site...

[howardh51]

Maybe Jon Arryn started to investigate Robert Baratheon's children because he had doubts about his own son.

Maybe Jon Arryn was investigating his own son all along and others (Ned, Stannis just threw off the reader)...

[Harry the Hair]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125784-sweet-robin-lfs-son/

Good to see my theory picking up steam - as I've been bashed by the trollers on this site...

It's because you didn't give your thread a funcky name like P+L=R. most trolls on this site are fanatics of the R+L=J theory, may God have mercy on your soul if you dare mention something that doesn't support it in front of them. A similar name to R+L=J appeases them.

[Hos the Hostage]

OP:

Sweetrobin could well be Petyr's son, and this could even be the revealing twist (if the show kills SR off in/after 'Kill the Boy' adding a second meaning to the title). However, the new Alayne chapter only says Harry has Jon Arryn's "look". Harry can have Jon Arryn's eyes, cheekbones, nose, and/or other facial features but different hair color, and it will still be said that he has Jon Arryn's "look". So sweetrobin could have got his brown hair from Jon Arryn. Also, if Jon Arryn was known to be blond, and Lysa being a redhead, and her alleged old flame LF (who is also around Jon Arryn a lot) has brown hair, surely someone would have raised issues about the boy's parentage? Even the Vale lords who hates LF to the core never says/hints anything about Sweetrobin's parentage. Because of this, I had always assumed Jon Arryn had brown hair.

[JLE]

Lysa has auburn (reddish brown) hair, which is apparently typical of the Tullys. Catelyn has similar hair, and most of her own children are known to take the hair colour of their mother, with only Arya more closely resembling a black-haired Stark.

Sweetrobin has hair that is a darker shade of brown, but still, recognisably brown. It would not take much imagination in the Westerosi world, given Westerosi levels of understanding, to suggest that his hair colour took after his mother: it takes something glaring like all three Lannister children looking exactly like blonde green-eyed Lannisters and nothing whatsoever like the Baratheons, when Baratheon children are usually known to take more after their Baratheon parent, to raise suspicions.

Nevertheless - I think the possibility (NOT a certainty) is there, for Sweetrobin to genuinely be Littlefinger's... and for neither Lysa nor Petyr to know it. This presupposes that:

(1) Petyr and Lysa were still carrying on, not regularly but occasionally - seeing each other once in a while, as and when Petyr's work (which would have had him travelling away from the Eyrie a lot) brought him back:

(2) It is possible to have a certain amount of bleeding that resembles a period, early on during pregnancy - especially since this often occurs at about the time that a period would have been due. (In extreme rare cases this has been known to carry on right up till near birth: more usually it stops after the first month.) It may be that Sweetrobin's conception (by Littlefinger) took place prior to such an event, which was mistaken from an actual monthly period - a thing which would cause Lysa to believe that Petyr could not possibly be the father, when in fact he was. (This would suggest that, counting by monthly periods, it would appear that Sweetrobin was born a few weeks earlier than expected, and was Jon Arryn's son - rather than at the right time, and was Littlefinger's. No such evidence exists yet, but look out for any evidence that might come out suggesting Sweetrobin was a couple of weeks premature.)

One thing is certain: if Sweetrobin *is* Littlefinger's son, he does not know it - and, quite possibly, plans to get rid of the boy that he thinks is Jon Arryn's, and will be a kinslayer if he does, but nobody will know it.

[juanml82]

OP:

Sweetrobin could well be Petyr's son, and this could even be the revealing twist (if the show kills SR off in/after 'Kill the Boy' adding a second meaning to the title). However, the new Alayne chapter only says Harry has Jon Arryn's "look". Harry can have Jon Arryn's eyes, cheekbones, nose, and/or other facial features but different hair color, and it will still be said that he has Jon Arryn's "look". So sweetrobin could have got his brown hair from Jon Arryn. Also, if Jon Arryn was known to be blond, and Lysa being a redhead, and her alleged old flame LF (who is also around Jon Arryn a lot) has brown hair, surely someone would have raised issues about the boy's parentage? Even the Vale lords who hates LF to the core never says/hints anything about Sweetrobin's parentage. Because of this, I had always assumed Jon Arryn had brown hair.

Well, it's possible, but it's also a bit contrived. Specially since Sansa makes a senseless remark about Robert's hair earlier in the chapter

Lysa has auburn (reddish brown) hair, which is apparently typical of the Tullys. Catelyn has similar hair, and most of her own children are known to take the hair colour of their mother, with only Arya more closely resembling a black-haired Stark.

Sweetrobin has hair that is a darker shade of brown, but still, recognisably brown. It would not take much imagination in the Westerosi world, given Westerosi levels of understanding, to suggest that his hair colour took after his mother: it takes something glaring like all three Lannister children looking exactly like blonde green-eyed Lannisters and nothing whatsoever like the Baratheons, when Baratheon children are usually known to take more after their Baratheon parent, to raise suspicions.

Nevertheless - I think the possibility (NOT a certainty) is there, for Sweetrobin to genuinely be Littlefinger's... and for neither Lysa nor Petyr to know it. This presupposes that:

(1) Petyr and Lysa were still carrying on, not regularly but occasionally - seeing each other once in a while, as and when Petyr's work (which would have had him travelling away from the Eyrie a lot) brought him back:

(2) It is possible to have a certain amount of bleeding that resembles a period, early on during pregnancy - especially since this often occurs at about the time that a period would have been due. (In extreme rare cases this has been known to carry on right up till near birth: more usually it stops after the first month.) It may be that Sweetrobin's conception (by Littlefinger) took place prior to such an event, which was mistaken from an actual monthly period - a thing which would cause Lysa to believe that Petyr could not possibly be the father, when in fact he was. (This would suggest that, counting by monthly periods, it would appear that Sweetrobin was born a few weeks earlier than expected, and was Jon Arryn's son - rather than at the right time, and was Littlefinger's. No such evidence exists yet, but look out for any evidence that might come out suggesting Sweetrobin was a couple of weeks premature.)

One thing is certain: if Sweetrobin *is* Littlefinger's son, he does not know it - and, quite possibly, plans to get rid of the boy that he thinks is Jon Arryn's, and will be a kinslayer if he does, but nobody will know it.

1) I think Petyr and Lysa were still carrying on when they could. Lysa does talk about "after all this years of whispers I will scream" or something, which suggest hidden meetings and trying to keep the servants, spies and little birds from hearing.

2) I'm not sure they don't know, or at least, that LF doesn't suspect. True, Lysa had several rambling opportunities in which she should have mentioned it, or should have given clues. OTOH, her dialogs are consistent with P+L=R anyway, if a bit contrieved. And despite her mad ramblings, she might have learned to hide that particular bit of information, as it would make her son a beggar. As for LF, he watched - and probably instigated - Jon Arryn's bastard quest. He should have been able to use the same deductions in his lover' son.

[Hoid]

I find it difficult to believe that Martin would have Jon Arryn realize the discrepancy in the hair of the royal heirs but not in his own child. On the other hand, I'd always assumed Robert was puny and sickly because he was old af and such children are born to men at that age. I really don't know what to think here.

Furthermore, what if Jon knew he needed an heir but knew he was too old? Might he have inseminated Lysa with someone else's sperm? Granted, he'd have to have gotten creative, but let's be honest, it wouldn't be that difficult. What if he said the "seed is strong", with confidence because he knew it to be coming from a source other than himself? Where would you go to find such a seed? Who would you go to? Hmm maybe Petyr Baelish, man of many whoring establishments, man who could no doubt acquire the seed of anyone in King's Landing, or provide his own as the man who desired Lysa. I can see it unfolding, it doesn't sound unlike Petyr in the slightest, he very well could have orchestrated it.

[Hoid]

The above theory could also explain Robert's health. They didn't have sperm banks back then so it the transferred sperm could have been damaged by heat or improper freezing, etc.

I like it. What do you all think?

[Harry the Hair]

The above theory could also explain Robert's health. They didn't have sperm banks back then so it the transferred sperm could have been damaged by heat or improper freezing, etc.

I like it. What do you all think?

I think Lysa would've noticed that... and mentioned it before her trip down the Moon Door.

[Lovely Lyanna]

The genetics of hair color does not work the same as eye color. Hair color depends on two type of melanin in your hair. One of the melanins deals with light colors or blonde. The other melanin deals with black or brown. The color of hair depends on whether or not there is more of the melanin that is dark or more melanin that is light present in the person.

I grew up on on large horse farm and trust me, color is really odd. I mean you can breed a black horse to a black horse and end up with a white foal. I have seen horses that have what you might call a dominant trait of only producing a particular color, but I believe that dominant is the incorrect word. They just have what is called an extension attached to their melanin, that overrides the lightness. My mother had a bright red sorrel mare that only produced bright red sorrels, no matter what you bred her too. I have a friend that stands a stallion at stud that has only produced black horses or bays which are sorrels with black points (legs, mane and tale.) And when I say he only produces black, I mean he really only produces black. He breed over 100 mares each year and has produced nothing but black or bay. Breeding for color is very difficult and really is just a crap shoot. For example if you breed a palomino to a palomino you only have a 50% chance of getting a palomino. You actually have a better shot at a palomino by breeding a palomino to a bright sorrel or bright bay. Go figure. People really should breed for better traits than color considering how difficult it is and you end up with a lot of horses that are a certain color, but they are not particularly good horses in the sense they do perform well in the show ring. However everyone wants to be Roy Rogers and have their own Trigger or Mr. Ed. LOL

If I remember my science classes right, hair texture works much more like eye color does, with dominant and recessive traits. In other words straight hair, curly hair, course and fine hair are tied to dominant and recessive genes.

Bring me his head and while you're up bring me some tin foil.