[Winds Spoilers] How Does Alayne I Affect Your Opinion of Sansa's Intelligence?

[Balerion the kitten]

His real failure was putting his own feelings and emotions (pity and charity with Hardhome - vengeance with the Boltons) over the needs of the Watch. This was a test that he failed - and he and the Watch pay for it dearly.

Completely disagree with your opinion on hardhome. Pity wasn't the only reason he decided to rescue the wildlings. If they all died (which they would) they would be brought back as WW, jon knows there is a war coming and he doesn't want to deal with thousands of ice zombies. He was 100% justified in his decision

[Masha]

Frankly speaking, I expected her to grow beyond that. I expected Sansa be far more manipulative, mistrusting of first impressions and less impressed with great pageants and physical beauty.

She still totally trusts Littlefinger, she still impressed by great knights and lords. She tries to move forward from that and keeps reminding herself of Joffrey/Lannisters, but she is still not grown up about it.

I expected her being completely cynical about this whole tourney but she is still very impressed by it

[Whitering]

She is more manipulative, which does require some wit and intelligence so she's come a long way, she used to lack insight, but she's developing nicely.

[Lord Freypie]

I don't think there's any new sign of Sansa's intelligence in last chapter; she looked more brillant in Lord Declarant chapters.

There are signs she is now overconfident about that supposed intelligence, which isn't a good sign at all imo.

Actually she fails to notice or mention to LF every important thing in the chapter (like the opened window, Robin's show of hostility for Harry, Lynn Corbray's mood, etc..) and make a big diplomatical mistake with the later.

[Lord Damian]

Littlefinger is really playing with her head and all the while trying to impress all of the Vale into liking him etc. Sansa is being kept with her head in the clouds as to keep her from focusing on what we all know. Littlefinger wants her all to himself. He just has to go through a lot of theatrics etc to get to that point.

[Túrin the Turambar]

it's a little bit OT...

Completely disagree with your opinion on hardhome. Pity wasn't the only reason he decided to rescue the wildlings. If they all died (which they would) they would be brought back as WW, jon knows there is a war coming and he doesn't want to deal with thousands of ice zombies. He was 100% justified in his decision

That's what he says when Bowen Marsh confronts him, but throughout the whole ADWD we have insight into Jon's head and mind, and not ONCE did he think "Helping those wildlings in Hardhome is a strategic advantage to protect the wall" - he only thought "I must rescue them, I cannot let them die".

It is harsh to say "Let them die" like Selyse and others did, but it would have been the right desicion.

Every man available is needed at the Wall and a few hundred (or even thousand) wights more or less beyond the Wall matter less than fifty men less to man the Wall.

The developments in Hardhome gave proof that Jon's decision was wrong.

[Whitering]

it's a little bit OT...

That's what he says when Bowen Marsh confronts him, but throughout the whole ADWD we have insight into Jon's head and mind, and not ONCE did he think "Helping those wildlings in Hardhome is a strategic advantage to protect the wall" - he only thought "I must rescue them, I cannot let them die".

It is harsh to say "Let them die" like Selyse and others did, but it would have been the right desicion.

Every man available is needed at the Wall and a few hundred (or even thousand) wights more or less beyond the Wall matter less than fifty men less to man the Wall.

The developments in Hardhome gave proof that Jon's decision was wrong.

There are thousands of Wildlings at Hardhome, Jon saw first hand the chaos two caused once beyond the Wall, yes nobody was on guard for them, but damn, he doesn't want several thousand additional zombies coming.

Now, sending a land venture after the ships had obviously perished may be questionable as you've already lost a valuable resource making what you have left even more precious, thus the balance in the equation has changed a bit from Jon's end, nonetheless there are still thousands of Wildlings there (to the best of Jon's knowledge). What Jon doesn't know is that hundreds of those Wildlings were carried off by slavers already.

[Balerion the kitten]

That's what he says when Bowen Marsh confronts him, but throughout the whole ADWD we have insight into Jon's head and mind, and not ONCE did he think "Helping those wildlings in Hardhome is a strategic advantage to protect the wall" - he only thought "I must rescue them, I cannot let them die".

But he can't let them die. If they die he is completely screwed, the wall is completely screwed. I do agree with you on the point that his feelings and morals played a part in his decision, but I disagree with you that those were his only reasons. Anyway this is kinda drifting from the topic so this is my last post on this.

And leaving them would be the very opposite of the right decision. 2 WW could do that much damage, how much do you think thousands could do?

[The Holy Goat]

:agree:

His real failure was putting his own feelings and emotions (pity and charity with Hardhome - vengeance with the Boltons) over the needs of the Watch. This was a test that he failed - and he and the Watch pay for it dearly.

I disagree. Jon certainly had emotional investment in both cases, but it seems to me that he rarely does something without thinking hard about it first, and I think he was right in both the Hardhome and Bolton issue, for pragmatic reasons.

[Roose on the Loose]

The last harvest where? I fail to see how the loss of any of the harvests were Robb's fault.

The Umbers tell Rodrick and Bran that their harvest is going to seed for want of men to reap. Alys Karstark tells Jon that their granaries are low because of the war. I'm pretty sure there are other examples. Robb will be remembered as the first Stark to not realize winter was comming.

[Wouter]

The Umbers tell Rodrick and Bran that their harvest is going to seed for want of men to reap. Alys Karstark tells Jon that their granaries are low because of the war. I'm pretty sure there are other examples. Robb will be remembered as the first Stark to not realize winter was comming.

Maester Luwin did give instructions to preserve food, in Robb's name. Either the lords didn't listen or the wars with Boltons and Ironmen screwed it up.

[Roose on the Loose]

Maester Luwin did give instructions to preserve food, in Robb's name. Either the lords didn't listen or the wars with Boltons and Ironmen screwed it up.

The problem wasn't lords refusing to harvest the grain they had planted, it was a personnel shortage. When the right people aren't in the right place that's the bosses ass.

I always wondered though. The Umbers complained about too few crofters in the field, and too many wildlings on their shores. So why didn't they offer employment to the wildlings harvesting grain.

[juanml82]

I still consider Sansa to be the least intelligent among Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Jon.

I'd say Robb "Jeynegate" Stark ranks among the stupidest people in Westeros, and that includes examples like Ned "Let's tell Cersei I know her secret" Stark and Cersei "let's revive the Faith Militant" Lannister.

Sansa strikes me as the type of person character who was raised to be a stereotypical "dumb blond" but isn't really dumb - she just plays the part because that's what she was told to be. If push come to shove, anyone would underestimate such a person at his own peril.

That said, I'm not sure we can draw definite conclusions about her intelligence (or the lack of thereof) from this chapter, as we're missing a lot of information, even if we are inside her head. Does she realize the winged knights will be hostages and, therefore, she secured LF's rule of the Vale with her idea? Or is she just self-congratulating herself because she managed to make people dance to her tune even if she doesn't know what tune it is? We simply don't know that.

Is she trusting Littlefinger? Is she just stalling because the marriage can't happen anyway? Is she already seeking a way out or to betray LF and the betrothal is instrumental to her plans? Why don't we see her rejections to getting married, as she thought by the end of AFFC? Does she know what is going on in the wider world?

[Túrin the Turambar]

There are thousands of Wildlings at Hardhome, Jon saw first hand the chaos two caused once beyond the Wall, yes nobody was on guard for them, but damn, he doesn't want several thousand additional zombies coming.

But he can't let them die. If they die he is completely screwed, the wall is completely screwed. I do agree with you on the point that his feelings and morals played a part in his decision, but I disagree with you that those were his only reasons.

And leaving them would be the very opposite of the right decision. 2 WW could do that much damage, how much do you think thousands could do?

Am I the only one who thinks that even thounsands of wights (not Others) are NOT such a big problem as long as they are on the other side of the Wall? As long as they have no chance to get over or through the Wall (I can't imagine them climbing - and you can fight them with fire from atop the Wall) it would be much more important for Jon to conserve the Watch's strength and not sacrificing his men's lifes for nothing.

So in my opinion the Wall would not at all have been screwed, but of course you're entitled to your own opinions ;-)

I disagree. Jon certainly had emotional investment in both cases, but it seems to me that he rarely does something without thinking hard about it first, and I think he was right in both the Hardhome and Bolton issue, for pragmatic reasons.

what we saw in Jon's mind in Dance was not at all pragmatic, but only his emotions. And from this lack of pragmatic thoughts I conclude that Jon's motivation was only idealistic and not for the good of the Watch. (And the same is true with his vengeance-trip to ride south)

Anyway this is kinda drifting from the topic so this is my last post on this.

You're right. If you want to further discuss this matter we should seek a proper topic to do so.

backtotopic: these are the reasons why I think that Sansa is more intelligent in a social way - in anticipating how people will react to certain actions and in using this knowlegde. Jon is more idealistic, which is nice - but only as long as you survive.

[Talking Hodor]

Well, let's count the number of stupid things the Starks have done to see which one did the fewest and how grave the consequences were:

Eddard - told Cersei he knew her children were bastards; couldn't keep his mouth shut while King Robert plotted Daenerys' assassination; trusted Littlefinger even after LF told him not to. 3 dumb moves. Result: decapitation.

Benjen - got lost trying to find his way back to Castle Black. 1 dumb move. Result: is either a wight, dead, or the Night King's personal love slave.

Lyanna - ran off with a married prince; forgot to bring a midwife/maester along to the Tower of Joy. 2 dumb moves. Result: massive civil war; downfall of the Targaryen dynasty; death of her lover; death in childbirth (most likely); son condemned to a life thinking he's a bastard.

Lord Rickard - thought Lyanna was kidnapped against her will by Rhaegar rather than eloping willingly with him; went to KL without an army to try to reason with the Mad King. 2 dumb moves. Result: death by wildfire; son and heir gets to strangle himself while watching.

Brandon Stark - humiliated Littlefinger in a duel rather than either not dueling or simply killing LF, turning him into the instigator of the downfall of House Stark; didn't use his foot to snag the sword just out of reach, or simply untie the noose with his two free hands, or remain cool, wait for the atrocity to end, and then seek revenge later, thereby strangling himself while his father burned. 2 dumb moves. Result: LF lives and hates Houses Stark and Tully; strangled to death by his own stupidity.

Catelyn - trusted Littlefinger's oblique accusation of Tyrion as the one behind the attempt on Bran's life, set the Kingslayer free, sucked at negotiations with Walder Frey (could have insisted that Robb see Frey's daughters, allowing him to become enamoured with Roslin early on). 3 dumb moves. Result: slit throat, naked river dump, afterlife as a zombie.

Robb - broke his vows to Walder Frey to marry the daughter of an enemy; trusted Theon; decapitated one of his liege lords for a questionable act of treason that could have been covered up, resulting in the loss of a major chunk of his army; didn't insist that his direwolf remain at his side at the red wedding (are you the effing king or not?); didn't wear chainmail to the wedding; put too much trust in Roose Bolton. 6 dumb moves. Result: decapitation, OD'd on crossbow bolts, loss of his entire army, loss of his ancient home Winterfell, loss of his direwolf, loss of his kingdom, etc.

Arya - improperly used Jaqen H'gar's skills to assassinate insignificant lowlifes instead of major bad guys; didn't try to reconnect with Nymeria while traipsing through the Riverlands. 2 dumb moves. Result: Tywin lived long enough to pull off the Red Wedding; the Mountain lived long enough to commit more major atrocities; she doesn't have a direwolf to control.

Bran - broke a promise to his mother and climbed the worst tower imaginable, then didn't climb back down but rather talked to a known kingslayer while hanging precariously out of a window after witnessing a major act of treason; sent far too many troops away from Winterfell to respond to the feint by the Ironborn at another castle, leaving Winterfell undefended. 2 dumb moves. Result: he's crippled for life; Winterfell is sacked and burned; the best he can hope for in life is to become one with an internet tree.

Rickon - I'll spare Rickon since he's just a toddler, and toddlers are constantly doing dumb things.

Jon SnowStarkTargaryen - joined the 'ancient and honorable' order of the Night's Watch to fight snarks and grumpkins; didn't keep his head down when subjected to the training of Alliser Thorne; nearly broke his vows attempting to move south and join his brother Robb; didn't keep his head down at Craster's Keep; didn't kill some wildling just because she was a girl; didn't learn how to warg quickly enough; didn't heed Melisandre's warnings; got his panties in a bunch over the pink letter, thereby breaking his vows, again, by planning to march south through the mother of all blizzards; possibly forgot to wear chainmail prior to his stabbing. 8-9 dumb moves. Result: he'll never be free of the NW, despite his likely heritage; OD'd on back-daggers; might possibly be dead; voted most likely to break his vows over stupid things by the NW.

Sansa - put too much trust in Cersei at the wrong moment, despite her father warning her not to trust people in King's Landing, and told her the wrong thing; didn't stick up for her sister during the wolf bite incident. 2 dumb moves. Result: Cersei got the advantage over Eddard and established Joffrey on the Iron Throne; Lady got put down; Sansa got roughed up numerous times by Kingsguard; got married to a nice guy; got to play a part in the coolest assassination of the largest douchebag in Westeros; is currently living a life of luxury in the least scathed of the seven kingdoms; is being trained by a political mastermind; is set to inherit up to three of the seven kingdoms via clever political maneuvering and plotting; will most likely end up marrying Aegon VI Targaryen, casting down Cersei as a more beautiful, younger queen (sweet vengeance), and dying of old age from a lemon cake overdose.

And the winner is: Benjen! Well, he did the fewest dumb moves, but he's probably dead.

Runner up and winner based on end results: Sansa! Hey, she's not dead, zombified, crippled, dressed all in black, or living in squalor without hope on Skagos. Plus she has an admirer who makes gigantic phallic lemon cakes for her and is teaching her the Game of Thrones.

[Talking Hodor]

:agree:

His real failure was putting his own feelings and emotions (pity and charity with Hardhome - vengeance with the Boltons) over the needs of the Watch. This was a test that he failed - and he and the Watch pay for it dearly.

Pity and charity played no part in his Hardhome decision. He didn't want thousands of wildlings turning into wights. Wildlings can be reasoned with and might possibly join them in their struggle against death incarnate. Wight's cannot be reasoned with.

[Roose on the Loose]

I was pleased to find that Sansa's becoming more brazen. She went through a timid phase in KL. Although that was wise given her circumstance. With both Lyn and Harry, she says just what's on her mind. Perhaps Myranda is rubbing off.

[Prince Daemon Targaryen]

All the Stark children are pretty intelligent. But many on these boards don't seem to be able to discern between intelligence and wisdom. Plus, many times smart characters do things that are unwise because they have blnd spots, are young and inexperienced, or project their values onto others.

Robb letting the Riverlords leave because it was honorable to let the defend their homes. Or trusting Theon to be an envoy the Greyjoys because he saved Bran. Marrying Jeyne because it was honorable. Maybe he would have learned more with time, but it is time he never got. Tactically great in battle, but unwise in being a king and ruling. Smart, but inexperienced and a bit naive.

Jon Snow is similar, but a tad wiser. Being a bastard can have it's advantages. But while he sees that the NW and Wildling's must make common cause, and gives Stannis sound advice on Northmen, he still can't see his actions are alienating parts of the NW and the NW should take no part. This, despite the fact he knows what happened to Mormount.

The girls and Bran haven't had the same opportunity to rule, but all have shown they are clever, but still inexperienced. Arya is smart enough to figure out how to kill without seeming to (nice move with the coin) but not wise enough to avoid slipping back into Arya to kill someone on her list. She showed great survival skills after Yoren died and in Harrenhal.

Sansa also showed great survival skills in KL. She started out as the one with her head most full of drivel about nights and honor and her heart was filled with notions of being Queen to a handsome King. And the Lannister's played on that. Yes, they were able to dupe a sheltered 12 year old girl. But she is far from dumb. And unlike Robb, she's learned her lesson and has her head intact. She's starting to have the wisdom to go along with her innate intelligence. Still young, but getting more worldly and experience all the time.

Right now, I think she's made more forward progress than any of the others have. Yes, she had the furthest to go, as well. But right now, I think she's the most advanced thinker of any of the Stark children alive, and it past where Robb got as well.

To answer the OP, the Alayne chapter doesn't affect this opinion at all. Just confirms it. You could see where Sansa was headed for a while now with her ability to manipulate SweetRobin.

Excellent point on the merits of intelligence and wisdom.

I think what has drawn a section of the readers, myself included, towards Sansa is because of how far she has come from a vapid, sheltered twelve year old noble.

And knowingly or unknowingly, she is slowly cultivating a power base (starting with Lothor Brune). I agree with Balerion the Kitten that she's still a bit reliant on others, especially LF, and she is indeed not the most intelligent person out there, but she slowly is coming into her own (e.g., when she reminded herself that hang on, Joffrey was comely too and her wariness of Lyn Corbray).

[Balerion the kitten]

Well, let's count the number of stupid things the Starks have done to see which one did the fewest and how grave the consequences were:

Eddard - told Cersei he knew her children were bastards; couldn't keep his mouth shut while King Robert plotted Daenerys' assassination; trusted Littlefinger even after LF told him not to. 3 dumb moves. Result: decapitation.

Could you explain how refusing to kill a 13 year resulted in him getting decapitated

[Lord Damian]

Sansa has mutch to figure out yet. It is amazing how she whitnessed Littlefinger kill Lysa and how she knows how Jon Arryn died because of Littlefinger and she must have already known how important Jon Arryn was to her father, Ned. Still, she is still not right in the head, yet. She seemingly is in some Stockholm Syndrom with Littlefinger it seems as there really is nowhere else to go and he is very clever in the way he pampers her with all he can to keep her "sedated", mentally speaking ofcourse. She is yet to come out of this state of mind.