[Winds Spoilers] How Does Alayne I Affect Your Opinion of Sansa's Intelligence?

[juanml82]

I'm in the no evidence = not happening/not worth trying to predict camp, not the no evidence = free roam to speculate.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Was there any evidence that Cat had released Jaime instead of killed him at the end of ACOK?

[JonSnow4President]

Was there any evidence that Cat had released Jaime instead of killed him at the end of ACOK?

Honestly, I'm not familiar with where each book ends. I'm currently (very slowly) rereading all 5, and I'm in the early-middle part of CoK. There's her suggesting trading Jaime for the girls and peace.

But my point is more speculation about things that haven't happened yet. Honestly, I strongly believe our little dove will break free and spread her wings. But there's no indication she is planning anything around LF right now. I don't take the absence of evidence against it as an excuse to pretend that she is planning something, and we haven't seen it.

I guess my point is, I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that it's already in the works, and be expected to be taken seriously.

[Whitering]

That was funny, thanks :)

Could you explain how refusing to kill a 13 year resulted in him getting decapitated

He had a huge fight with the moron king and resigned as Hand, giving Jaime the opportunity to ambush him without directly assaulting the right hand of the crown. He ended up crippled with some of his best friends dead, and this conflict is probably the reason Robert went hunting anyway, to blow off steam. It's not really a causal link as things may have shaken out the same way.

[juanml82]

Honestly, I'm not familiar with where each book ends. I'm currently (very slowly) rereading all 5, and I'm in the early-middle part of CoK. There's her suggesting trading Jaime for the girls and peace.

But my point is more speculation about things that haven't happened yet. Honestly, I strongly believe our little dove will break free and spread her wings. But there's no indication she is planning anything around LF right now. I don't take the absence of evidence against it as an excuse to pretend that she is planning something, and we haven't seen it.

I guess my point is, I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that it's already in the works, and be expected to be taken seriously.

I'm not arguing it's in the works, but that absence of evidence works both ways. We don't know if she has submitted to LF. The text doesn't say it, and there are other possibilites.

[JonSnow4President]

I'd counter and say that when your stance is "she doesn't have plans to break from LF at present," the lack of plans in every instance of her thoughts is actually the only possible relevant evidence.

I'll give you points for turning that around on me though

:thumbsup:

[Tagganaro]

I just read the chapter and more or less have the same opinion of Sansa's intelligence. Clearly she's matured a lot, and while she may not be exactly book smart she has some serious people smarts. She knows how to play Sweetrobin and Harry perfectly, as well as possibly Corbrey (where you see her sort of probing his allegiances and loyalty to LF).

I think at the moment it's just tough to tell where her psyche is. She's sort of just really happy to be out of KL and away from Joffrey and the Lannisters, and I think it clouds her judgment of LF and her situation in general.

But yeah, I don't think Sansa quite gets the credit she should for how intelligent she can be, at least on an emotional level.

[Lord Damian]

I just read the chapter and more or less have the same opinion of Sansa's intelligence. Clearly she's matured a lot, and while she may not be exactly book smart she has some serious people smarts. She knows how to play Sweetrobin and Harry perfectly, as well as possibly Corbrey (where you see her sort of probing his allegiances and loyalty to LF).

I think at the moment it's just tough to tell where her psyche is. She's sort of just really happy to be out of KL and away from Joffrey and the Lannisters, and I think it clouds her judgment of LF and her situation in general.

But yeah, I don't think Sansa quite gets the credit she should for how intelligent she can be, at least on an emotional level.

An outstanding overall observation.

[YouKnowNothingJonSnow]

I don't agree that the NW should not take part. It's custom and it has served the NW well for many years, but circumstances have changed: one of the warring kings has taken up residence at the wall, and the Others are preparing to invade. The duty of the NW is to defend the realm, and in order to do so they have to act. Without Stannis, the wall would have fallen in ASOS. As a result, Stannis is at the Wall and issuing demands. In that situation, the NW cannot stay neutral; they are involved already. And supporting Stannis over Boltons is a good decision; not only would it have been dishonorable to betray Stannis after he saved the NW, the Bolton's aren't even aware of the dangers at and beyond the Wall and are extremely selfish rulers. Stannis is far from perfect, but at least he is aware of the danger and willing to oppose it.

Same goes for his decision with the Wildlings: getting them on the Westerosi side of the Wall was a good move, in spite of the enmity between NW and them.

Apologies, I should have been clearer. It's not important if you or I think the NW should or shouldn't remain apart. THEY believe it. It is their ethos. It has been their shield as well. Jon was blind to the danger, even after knowing what happened to Mormount. And that he was asking the NW to throw away a lot of their core values (allying with wildlings, and possibly going south). One straw too many. Anyway, like I said, smart, but inexperienced. Unwise. Young.

[Balerion the kitten]

He had a huge fight with the moron king and resigned as Hand, giving Jaime the opportunity to ambush him without directly assaulting the right hand of the crown. He ended up crippled with some of his best friends dead, and this conflict is probably the reason Robert went hunting anyway, to blow off steam. It's not really a causal link as things may have shaken out the same way.

Then supporting daenerys saved his life. Tywin later stated that the reason he was burning and sacking towns in the Riverlands was so that he could lure Ned out of kings landing into battle. Once he had done that he would take Ned as a hostage and exchange him with Tyrion, but lysa seemed pretty intent on killing Tyrion because

SPOILER

Littlefinger was manipulating the starks and the lannisters to go to war, if he saw this the opportunity would be too perfect. He would immediately order Lysa to kill Tyrion resulting in Ned dying.

So actually disagreeing with Robert added more days to his life. The plan didn't go through because jaime crippled him

Edit- my grammar sucks

[Aderyn]

Well, what is intelligence... I don't like the idea of comparing the Stark kids to each other because they all ended up in such different situations. Robb and Jon became leaders, Arya a runaway and later an assassin-acolyte, and Bran followed his dreams up north. Sansa, on the other hand, found herself in KL with her family gone and surrounded by foes. She was fundamentally alone. With that in mind, she (mostly) made the best out of her situation. But so did her siblings.

I think Sansa is very intelligent but she just hasn't had the chance to prove herself yet because of her age. She was only 11 in AGOT and is now the same age as Robb and Jon were at the beginning of AGOT. She is young but she's definitely growing up. You can see she's learning and gaining more experience. Yes, she is still naive and all that but like many have said, she's come a long way and I believe she continues to do so.

I just read the chapter and more or less have the same opinion of Sansa's intelligence. Clearly she's matured a lot, and while she may not be exactly book smart she has some serious people smarts. She knows how to play Sweetrobin and Harry perfectly, as well as possibly Corbrey (where you see her sort of probing his allegiances and loyalty to LF).

I think at the moment it's just tough to tell where her psyche is. She's sort of just really happy to be out of KL and away from Joffrey and the Lannisters, and I think it clouds her judgment of LF and her situation in general.

But yeah, I don't think Sansa quite gets the credit she should for how intelligent she can be, at least on an emotional level.

I like this. Well said.

[Chinoiserie]

Sansa is still younger than Jon and Robb were in AGOT. Sansa is still 13, Alayne is 14.

[The Holy Goat]

Sansa is still younger than Jon and Robb were in AGOT. Sansa is still 13, Alayne is 14.

TWOW begins late in the year 300 though, so Sansa will soon turn 14.

[Newstar]

I dunno. While she seemed somewhat more impressive at first, upon greater reflection, Sansa reminded me of Cersei a few times in this chapter: congratulating herself on her own cleverness while showing a weak or underdeveloped intellect (the mere thought of Lyn Corbray being a triple agent being enough to "[make] her head spin"), and being contemptuous of others' intelligence (thinking of Sweetrobin as a "little fool," which is Cersei's oft-used insult, even as Sweetrobin astutely points out that Harry is waiting for him to die). And Cersei is no brain trust, despite having a certain amount of low cunning.

[Colonel Green]

(thinking of Sweetrobin as a "little fool," which is Cersei's oft-used insult, even as Sweetrobin astutely points out that Harry is waiting for him to die)

She calls him a fool because he's constantly talking about wanting to marry her.

[bent branch]

I dunno. While she seemed somewhat more impressive at first, upon greater reflection, Sansa reminded me of Cersei a few times in this chapter: congratulating herself on her own cleverness while showing a weak or underdeveloped intellect (the mere thought of Lyn Corbray being a triple agent being enough to "[make] her head spin"), and being contemptuous of others' intelligence (thinking of Sweetrobin as a "little fool," which is Cersei's oft-used insult, even as Sweetrobin astutely points out that Harry is waiting for him to die). And Cersei is no brain trust, despite having a certain amount of low cunning.

I'm with you on this one. At first it seemed that things were looking up for Sansa, but a second read showed a lot of potentially dangerous things going on around Sansa that she wasn't picking up on.

[Lord Damian]

All of the goings on in the Vale seem to fun and exciting for Sansa to last. Something is going to happen and not to her liking. It will happen soon after her chapter that was just given.

[fionwe1987]

It would be too soon to say Sansa is a master politician. But she's getting her first taste of it, and she's getting to watch a master in action. And she certainly seems to be paying attention, rather than letting the opportunity pass by.

For myself, I always refused to believe Catelyn, who is so (rightfully) touchy about slights to women's capabilities and intelligence, would raise a total brainless git. Obviously, she didn't teach much of her own understanding of politics to Sansa, but she also seems to have spared no effort in making sure Sansa could handle courtly situations.

We know Ned relied on Catelyn to help him rule the North, and he didn't leave her to rule it out of politeness. And some of those skills, at least, Sansa has. They've been mostly used in service of keeping herself alive, and there have been moments when good sense was sent packing due to Sansa's emotions. But frankly, no Stark, even the one with no Stark blood at all, seems immune to that. Why would Sansa be any different?

All that said, I do think she is on a path to become a witty, clever woman. The kind of woman who Tyrion found, much to his frustration, was able to anticipate his every move and thwart them. I suspect when they next meet, Tyrion will see much of Catelyn in Sansa, and much of himself too.

I don't think Sansa knows that Jon Arryn died because of LF, unless I don't recall it right. Sansa heard Lysa saying "you told me to give the tears to Jon" but I doubt she knows that "the tears" is referring to a poison. If she doesn't, the sentence would make little to no sense for her.

She also heard that Lysa wrote a letter accusing the Lannisters, based on LF's urging, but if she didn't realise what "the tears" are she may not have concluded that the letter was actually a lie. For all she know, LF "discovered" that Lannisters did it and convinced Lysa to write about it.

I think she doesn't know what "tears" are. But I think that she remembers what Lysa said, and I think when Littlefinger eventually instructs that Sweetrobin is to be killed using the Tears of Lys, she'll piece it together, save his life, and oust LF.

Her trust in LF is bound to be shattered. And I'd say GRRM is setting the stage for that to be the moment when she finally loses all illusions, and also decides to take complete control of her life, rather than relying on any man for help.

It has seemed clear to me that Sansa's ark is about an awakening of competence, and self-reliance in a naive young woman. It parallels (though via wildly different paths) the development in Dany. She still hasn't had the moment when she breaks from relying on anyone, and starts looking to herself, and right now, she doesn't have all the tools for it anyway. But she'll get there, I think.

[JonSnow4President]

It has seemed clear to me that Sansa's ark is about an awakening of competence, and self-reliance in a naive young woman. It parallels (though via wildly different paths) the development in Dany. She still hasn't had the moment when she breaks from relying on anyone, and starts looking to herself, and right now, she doesn't have all the tools for it anyway. But she'll get there, I think.

I keep thinking the same thing. And then I remember the bit about the concept of a real vs fake double agent making her head spin. Not a good sign, unless she goes on a purely vertical learning curve.

[fionwe1987]

I keep thinking the same thing. And then I remember the bit about the concept of a real vs fake double agent making her head spin. Not a good sign, unless she goes on a purely vertical learning curve.

I say things make my head spin all the time without meaning that I am literally dazed and confused. She is saying it is a complicated situation by using a common figure of speech. This doesn't mean it is complicated beyond her understanding.

[Roose on the Loose]

I keep thinking the same thing. And then I remember the bit about the concept of a real vs fake double agent making her head spin. Not a good sign, unless she goes on a purely vertical learning curve.

If Lyn is a tripple agent, that means he is a blind spot for LF like the Mad Mouse, or maybe Sansa herself. Most characters don't expect their servants or close advisers to be moles, even though they often are. Sansa is suspicious early on of her maids. Best I recall, only LF employs double agents like Lyn Corbrey or the Kettleblacks. Sansa is the first person in the story to conceive of a triple agent. It would make my head spin.