why was Ladystoneheart cut out

[Meera of Tarth]

5 hours ago, Damorian said:

Woah, just when the Stoneheart hype train was in dire need of an engine stoking to get those rusty wheels a turnin' ... loving the news about the return of Thoros/Paul Kaye!

And if a HANGING scene with him in doesn't mean anything LSH-related is potentially still on the table, well ....

Three years burned means I'm probably erring on the side of caution this time and choosing not to get my hopes up. But damn, if it isn't game on, one last time, for the hopers until the end of season 6.

I will concede it's starting to feel increasingly odd that almost every supporting aspect of her storyline from the BWB, to the aformentioned hangings, checking back in with the Tullys, not to mention Brienne and Jaime being exactly where they need to be by season's end is all, well ... VERY INTRIGUING.

Suddenly that inadvertent comment Christie made the other week about being great to work with actors on GOT - amongst others - like Michelle Fairley (i.e: the one that everybody took to mean 'back in season 2') may actually have some credence ...

But like I said ... fourth time burnt? No thanks.

LSH hype too, but don't think she will appear at the end. But it's intriguing.

I didn't know about that comment Gwen made.

[HouseHarrison]

IIRC D&D said she was "confusing" and "weird". We got the AMAZING Jaime in Dorne arc instead!

[Ser Maverick]

Thoros of Myr is supposedly coming back this season and with Jaime and Brienne going back to the Riverlands, they may introduce LS after all.

[Tianzi]

They may, but they may also save screen time for more Missandei x Gery Worm scenes.

They seem to be many people, not only fans of D&D's brand of "creative interpretation", who claim she's a good riddance. On the meta level, I think that Stoneheart got hit with a bit of a hype backlash, the massive whining about her absence just brought out people who don't think her character is worth such noise.
 

[Lautrec]

LSH would be good if, you know, she actually appeared. Outside of the epilogue scene where she is introduced she appears once in the next 2000 pages. Let me repeat that: once. So if her ASOS epilogue scene had been the final scene of S4, as so many were anticipating, then, if D&D were to stay true to the novels, she would have exactly one scene in the whole of S5. That would be plainly awful. Bringing back a main character from death so she can have 5 minutes of screentime in the entire following 10 hour season. I guess you could say that D&D could have invented new material for here, but we all know how that would go with book purists... Either way LSH is a lose/lose situation, so good riddance.

[Damorian]

 

For me, it's more about how much her story thread would have occupied screentime effectively than her face being on screen directly.

Notwithstanding the fact that Merrett's p.o.v from ASOS contains enough nuanced storytelling to fill half an episode ....

Based on the content in Feast For Crows alone you could quite easily have split Brienne's lengthy LSH chapter over 3 episodes of S5 comprising 20-25 minutes of material - no less than Stannis, LF, or the Ironborn have had some seasons.

1.) Freys show up decorating tree boughs with salt stuffed in their mouths. Tavern folk in the Riverlands talk of a Lady Stoneheart leading the Brotherhood = easy 5 minutes material.

2.) Brienne captured, taken to their leader, freaks out as LSH revealed. = 10 mins material.

3.) Brienne & Pod vs Stoneheart interrogation. "Oath breaker I call it" / "noose or sword?"  = 10 mins material.

= 25 mins of scenes total either about LSH or including her.

Your argument seemed convincing, but you presented the Feast scene as though it were a single page or something and not a sprawling chapter. There's a LOT of lead in and a LOT of shit going down when Brienne finally encounters her they could've easily strung out without labouring the point.

Besides which, the first rule of horror re: how much of a creature you actually show as opposed to setting tone and ambience never changes ~ less is more.

I mean, look how much of an impact The Night's King made on viewers with about 3 minutes of screentime, total, to date?

 

[Meera of Tarth]

well36 minutes ago, Damorian said:

 

For me, it's more about how much her story thread would have occupied screentime effectively than her face being on screen directly.

Notwithstanding the fact that Merrett's p.o.v from ASOS contains enough nuanced storytelling to fill half an episode ....

Based on the content in Feast For Crows alone you could quite easily have split Brienne's lengthy LSH chapter over 3 episodes of S5 comprising 20-25 minutes of material - no less than Stannis, LF, or the Ironborn have had some seasons.

1.) Freys show up decorating tree boughs with salt stuffed in their mouths. Tavern folk in the Riverlands talk of a Lady Stoneheart leading the Brotherhood = easy 5 minutes material.

2.) Brienne captured, taken to their leader, freaks out as LSH revealed. = 10 mins material.

3.) Brienne & Pod vs Stoneheart interrogation. "Oath breaker I call it" / "noose or sword?"  = 10 mins material.

= 25 mins of scenes total either about LSH or including her.

Your argument seemed convincing, but you presented the Feast scene as though it were a single page or something and not a sprawling chapter. There's a LOT of lead in and a LOT of shit going down when Brienne finally encounters her they could've easily strung out without labouring the point.

Besides which, the first rule of horror re: how much of a creature you actuallywell said show as opposed to setting tone and ambience never changes ~ less is more.

I mean, look how much of an impact The Night's King made on viewers with about 3 minutes of screentime, total, to date?

 

well.said

[Lautrec]

1 hour ago, Damorian said:

 

For me, it's more about how much her story thread would have occupied screentime effectively than her face being on screen directly.

Notwithstanding the fact that Merrett's p.o.v from ASOS contains enough nuanced storytelling to fill half an episode ....

Based on the content in Feast For Crows alone you could quite easily have split Brienne's lengthy LSH chapter over 3 episodes of S5 comprising 20-25 minutes of material - no less than Stannis, LF, or the Ironborn have had some seasons.

1.) Freys show up decorating tree boughs with salt stuffed in their mouths. Tavern folk in the Riverlands talk of a Lady Stoneheart leading the Brotherhood = easy 5 minutes material.

2.) Brienne captured, taken to their leader, freaks out as LSH revealed. = 10 mins material.

3.) Brienne & Pod vs Stoneheart interrogation. "Oath breaker I call it" / "noose or sword?"  = 10 mins material.

= 25 mins of scenes total either about LSH or including her.

Your argument seemed convincing, but you presented the Feast scene as though it were a single page or something and not a sprawling chapter. There's a LOT of lead in and a LOT of shit going down when Brienne finally encounters her they could've easily strung out without labouring the point.

Besides which, the first rule of horror re: how much of a creature you actually show as opposed to setting tone and ambience never changes ~ less is more.

I mean, look how much of an impact The Night's King made on viewers with about 3 minutes of screentime, total, to date?

 

You're exaggerating. Heavily. Merret's PoV has material for a single scene, realistically speaking. Brienne's LSH chapter is hardly lengthy. You could adapt from it the scene of Brienne being led to the cave, being inside the cave, and then meeting LSH. Also, those minutes you put are absurd. The entire Red Wedding is 10 minutes. There is literally no way you can milk 10 minutes from Brienne being interrogated and hanged. 

Without inventing a bunch of new scenes, you get perhaps 10-15 minutes of LSH's storyline in S5. I think that hardly justifies returning a major character back to life. And in those 15 minutes she would be in the scenes for probably less than 5. 

The Night's King is a new character whom we haven't seen until the halfway point of S4. We've been with Catelyn since the series premiere, so with LSH the viewer expectations would be through the roof. I know one of the reasons I was massively disappointed in Feast and Dance is that after doing something as crazy and shocking as resurrecting Catelyn Martin barely used her as a character.

[Gendry_Goldeneyes]

Sansa will take on lady stoneheart's role this season and pull the rug out on littlefinger

[Damorian]

Quote

Lautrec: You're exaggerating. Heavily. Merret's PoV has material for a single scene, realistically speaking. Brienne's LSH chapter is hardly lengthy. You could adapt from it the scene of Brienne being led to the cave, being inside the cave, and then meeting LSH. Also, those minutes you put are absurd. The entire Red Wedding is 10 minutes. There is literally no way you can milk 10 minutes from Brienne being interrogated and hanged. 

 

10 mins for the ENTIRE Red Wedding?

In a single episode, you have the arrival at the twins and the conversation with Walder (about 5-6 minutes), Edmure meeting Roslin and saying their vows (3-4 mins) and then about 12 or 13 mins worth for the final act (inc: band, table talk, bedding, betrayal, Arya outside, back to Cat.)

It takes up just over 20 minutes screentime total.

If you want me to break down how a climactic scene between Bri and LSH could take more than a couple of minutes:

Brienne's conversation with LSH = 4-5 minutes EASY. (Christ, she has a translator slowing down the dialogue to a crawl and all the info about Jaime's sword has to be in there, think about it. Some cold, lingering stares sans dialogue? Few maggots crawling between her fingers from her throat wound between throaty gargles with close ups on Brie's look of abject horror. It ain't no bish-bash-bosh knock out the dialogue scene; it requires the lengthy pauses, soul churning stares and ambience.)

Then prepararation for hanging, Brie protesting and cutaways to Pod and how he's dealing with this fucked up, crazy shit = what, 2 minutes?

Brienne making her choice (i.e: about to choke, looking over to Pod, trying to endure) and calling out a word = 1 minute.

Okay, I'm calling it a possible 8 minutes. Two minutes exaggeration does not = heavily. But I am guilty of those two.

 

 

[JonSnow4President]

15 minutes ago, Damorian said:

 

10 mins for the ENTIRE Red Wedding?

In a single episode, you have the arrival at the twins and the conversation with Walder (about 5-6 minutes), Edmure meeting Roslin and saying their vows (3-4 mins) and then about 12 or 13 mins worth for the final act (inc: band, table talk, bedding, betrayal, Arya outside, back to Cat.)

It takes up just over 20 minutes screentime total.

If you want me to break down how a climactic scene between Bri and LSH could take more than a couple of minutes:

Brienne's conversation with LSH = 4-5 minutes EASY. (Christ, she has a translator slowing down the dialogue to a crawl and all the info about Jaime's sword has to be in there, think about it. Some cold, lingering stares sans dialogue? Few maggots crawling between her fingers from her throat wound between throaty gargles with close ups on Brie's look of abject horror. It ain't no bish-bash-bosh knock out the dialogue scene; it requires the lengthy pauses, soul churning stares and ambience.)

Then prepararation for hanging, Brie protesting and cutaways to Pod and how he's dealing with this fucked up, crazy shit = what, 2 minutes?

Brienne making her choice and calling out a word = 1 minute.

Okay, I'm calling it a possible 8 minutes. Two minutes exaggeration does not = heavily. But I am guilty of those two.

 

 

Don't forget the Thoros speech about how they used to have a purpose.  Easily another 2 minutes there.

[Ruhail]

4 hours ago, Damorian said:

 

For me, it's more about how much her story thread would have occupied screentime effectively than her face being on screen directly.

Notwithstanding the fact that Merrett's p.o.v from ASOS contains enough nuanced storytelling to fill half an episode ....

Based on the content in Feast For Crows alone you could quite easily have split Brienne's lengthy LSH chapter over 3 episodes of S5 comprising 20-25 minutes of material - no less than Stannis, LF, or the Ironborn have had some seasons.

1.) Freys show up decorating tree boughs with salt stuffed in their mouths. Tavern folk in the Riverlands talk of a Lady Stoneheart leading the Brotherhood = easy 5 minutes material.

2.) Brienne captured, taken to their leader, freaks out as LSH revealed. = 10 mins material.

3.) Brienne & Pod vs Stoneheart interrogation. "Oath breaker I call it" / "noose or sword?"  = 10 mins material.

= 25 mins of scenes total either about LSH or including her.

Your argument seemed convincing, but you presented the Feast scene as though it were a single page or something and not a sprawling chapter. There's a LOT of lead in and a LOT of shit going down when Brienne finally encounters her they could've easily strung out without labouring the point.

Besides which, the first rule of horror re: how much of a creature you actually show as opposed to setting tone and ambience never changes ~ less is more.

I mean, look how much of an impact The Night's King made on viewers with about 3 minutes of screentime, total, to date?

 

Well said.

[Damorian]

Quote

JonSnow4Presid... Don't forget the Thoros speech about how they used to have a purpose.  Easily another 2 minutes there.

 

Fucking hell, yes! Okay, potentially ten. There is so much packed into that scene.

You can rush through it workmanlike or you can let it take its own sweet, vicious time.

Obviously, I'm officially on record as having alighted from the hype train, ahem ... but here's to hoping some version of it - long OR short - shows up in season 6.

Least we can dream now, what with Thoros reportedly present at a hanging ...

 

 

[Lautrec]

 

Well this conversation is going places, I predict that soon we will debate how long it would take for LSH to say a single word

The supposedly 2 minute long preparation for the hanging sounds like it should be 10 seconds really, a bunch of quickly edited shots to instill confusion and a rush of dread.

Regarding the RW, I meant 10 minutes for the massacre, that is to say, from the moment the episode moves to the Twins from Dany in Yunkai (I think that was the scene before it) until the ending of the episode.

Anyways, I'm willing to give you 7 minutes of LSH screentime in an entire season if we're going by the books   That is not enough. So, they had a choice. Either make it 0 minutes or at least 30. I think they chose wisely, because as you can see, you are literally padding a scene out. In retrospect LSH is the book's jumping the shark moment, and it would probably come across the same in the TV show.

[JonSnow4President]

As far as Lautrec, there are multiple references (at least 3 directly by name) prior to Brienne ever meeting her, plus the backdrop of hung Frey's around the Riverlands.  Of course, the show wasn't interested in the horror of war theme/Red Wedding consequences, so they can't have shown them yet.  But it's more than just Brienne's last scenes, and likely an important piece in the resolution of the Riverlands and possibly Vale storylines.

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, Lautrec said:

Well this conversation is going places, I predict that soon we will debate how long it would take for LSH to say a single word

The supposedly 2 minute long preparation for the hanging sounds like it should be 10 seconds really, a bunch of quickly edited shots to instill confusion and a rush of dread.

Regarding the RW, I meant 10 minutes for the massacre, that is to say, from the moment the episode moves to the Twins from Dany in Yunkai (I think that was the scene before it) until the ending of the episode.

Anyways, I'm willing to give you 7 minutes of LSH screentime in an entire season if we're going by the books   That is not enough. So, they had a choice. Either make it 0 minutes or at least 30. I think they chose wisely, because as you can see, you are literally padding a scene out. In retrospect LSH is the book's jumping the shark moment, and it would probably come across the same in the TV show.

 Jaquen Hagar only had 11 minutes of screen time and made a huge impact. I doubt Syrio cracked the 10 minute mark either.

Lady Stoneheart is certainly divisive, some people hated her, some people love her.  But, it isn't really accurate to say the show that invented Ros and has made numerous changes, expanding the role of some characters like Bronn, eliminating or downsizing others like Selmy that it would have been some kind of a major writing/production trauma to include Stoneheart.

[Damorian]

Quote

Lautrec:

Well this conversation is going places, I predict that soon we will debate how long it would take for LSH to say a single word

The supposedly 2 minute long preparation for the hanging sounds like it should be 10 seconds really, a bunch of quickly edited shots to instill confusion and a rush of dread.

Regarding the RW, I meant 10 minutes for the massacre, that is to say, from the moment the episode moves to the Twins from Dany in Yunkai (I think that was the scene before it) until the ending of the episode.

Anyways, I'm willing to give you 7 minutes of LSH screentime in an entire season if we're going by the books   That is not enough. So, they had a choice. Either make it 0 minutes or at least 30. I think they chose wisely, because as you can see, you are literally padding a scene out. In retrospect LSH is the book's jumping the shark moment, and it would probably come across the same in the TV show.

Okay, apologies if you only meant the third act massacre. Everyone forgets the actual 'wedding' part and the poor sap that is Edmure, so you're not exactly alone!

"Preparation" was a bad choice of word when I meant the intercut scenes and cutaways comprising a prelude to it happneing. So by that, I'm talking everything from a bit of "Lannister-lover!" baiting and schadenfreude from the outlaws, to Bri trying to comfort Pod etc, that kinda thing. Though you're right in so far as smash cuts and fast paced editing can be very effective to achieve emotional disarray and panic.

As for the rest of what you said, I don't see their choice for LSH on screen as black and white as 0 mins or 30 anymore than I see the character as a jumping the shark moment. Done right with Michelle Fairley in top tier quality prosthetics as a tragic shell of who she was, (as opposed to a mindless zombie or some generic 'I Am Legend' CGI embarrassment rendering our emotional connection null & void) she could have been the horror highlight of the series where that duty falls, somewhat repetetively, to the world beyond the wall. 

But yes, I'm as biased in loving the character Martin wrote as you are for not loving her. I love the Gothic horror world he created for her of a mist enshrouded Riverlands of disillusioned freedom fighters and Freys dotting the tree boughs with great gobshites of salt stufffed in their mouths. I love the classic lines he attributes to the character like "she don't speak ... but she remembers."

In terms of witchy archetypes, Thrones already has its evil seductress in Mel, but Stoneheart was the twisted crone who peddled the vengeance apple. Its classic-looking WITCH, if you will:

http://img13.deviantart.net/e5ab/i/2016/097/d/a/lady_stoneheart_by_dalisacg-d9y254a.jpg

Besides which, where others find her OTT or schlocky, I find her both intensely frightening and tragic. Maybe the thing that always unsettled me the most about her and why I generally refute the idea that she undermines the impact of the RW, is that Walder didn't just take her life. He took her soul.

 

[Lautrec]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

 Jaquen Hagar only had 11 minutes of screen time and made a huge impact. I doubt Syrio cracked the 10 minute mark either.

Lady Stoneheart is certainly divisive, some people hated her, some people love her.  But, it isn't really accurate to say the show that invented Ros and has made numerous changes, expanding the role of some characters like Bronn, eliminating or downsizing others like Selmy that it would have been some kind of a major writing/production trauma to include Stoneheart.

Never argued that the screentime would be a trauma, just debating whether it would be worth it. 

Again, Jaqen and Syrio are side characters in a side plot, and new ones at that. LSH's appearance would cause a surge of expectations, and that could only be met if  she appeared regularly.

45 minutes ago, Damorian said:

Okay, apologies if you only meant the third act massacre. Everyone forgets the actual 'wedding' part and the poor sap that is Edmure, so you're not exactly alone!

"Preparation" was a bad choice of word when I meant the intercut scenes and cutaways comprising a prelude to it happneing. So by that, I'm talking everything from a bit of "Lannister-lover!" baiting and schadenfreude from the outlaws, to Bri trying to comfort Pod etc, that kinda thing. Though you're right in so far as smash cuts and fast paced editing can be very effective to achieve emotional disarray and panic.

As for the rest of what you said, I don't see their choice for LSH on screen as black and white as 0 mins or 30 anymore than I see the character as a jumping the shark moment. Done right with Michelle Fairley in top tier quality prosthetics as a tragic shell of who she was, (as opposed to a mindless zombie or some generic 'I Am Legend' CGI embarrassment rendering our emotional connection null & void) she could have been the horror highlight of the series where that duty falls, somewhat repetetively, to the world beyond the wall. 

But yes, I'm as biased in loving the character Martin wrote as you are for not loving her. I love the Gothic horror world he created for her of a mist enshrouded Riverlands of disillusioned freedom fighters and Freys dotting the tree boughs with great gobshites of salt stufffed in their mouths. I love the classic lines he attributes to the character like "she don't speak ... but she remembers."

In terms of witchy archetypes, Thrones already has its evil seductress in Mel, but Stoneheart was the twisted crone who peddled the vengeance apple. Its classic-looking WITCH, if you will:

http://img13.deviantart.net/e5ab/i/2016/097/d/a/lady_stoneheart_by_dalisacg-d9y254a.jpg

Besides which, where others find her OTT or schlocky, I find her both intensely frightening and tragic. Maybe the thing that always unsettled me the most about her and why I generally refute the idea that she undermines the impact of the RW, is that Walder didn't just take her life. He took her soul.

 

LSH as a character and as a device has (or had, actually) a ton of potential. Your post makes her story sound awesome. But I just never got that impression from the books. 

[MercyTheBlindUglyLittleCat]

I agree with the OP; the most obvious possible reason she has been cut is that D&D felt her presence would undermine the impact of Jon's resurrection. I also think they perhaps felt the character provided challenges to balancing the already existing plots. If they where gonna bring back Michelle, I think they would want to give her a substantial amount of screen time, which they felt they couldn't justify. That said, I think Season 6 bringing back the Brotherhood to continue the storyline that she was a part of in the books shows that while that story is important, they felt there was a way to present it without doing the above mentioned things that they felt would be drawbacks to their plan.

[Damorian]

Well, talk about giving with one hand &  taking with the other for the Stoneheart cause ....

in the same week Thoros is confirmed returning, turns out the guy we thought was Merrett Frey is, in fact, a recast Lame Lothar:

http://winteriscoming.net/2016/04/19/game-of-thrones-recasts-a-villain-from-season-3/

I'm sure their hand was forced on this (isn't Tom Brooke involved in Punisher?) but nonetheless: annoying continuity of them to recast a well known face from their most notorious episode. The faces of the two RW murderers are pretty locked in memory for most people, I'd imagine: certainly the guy who did THAT to Talisa and unborn baby Ned.

Then again, at least they got David Bradley and Tim Plester back for Black Walder - the latter being the one who cut Cat's ... well, y'know. To the bone, n' all.