why was Ladystoneheart cut out

[Lautrec]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It would be great if Martin would give Lady Stoneheart the pleasure of killing LF for destroying her family, but he generally never rewards any character in such a way and since LF is a quasi good guy in the show, this surely will not happen.

Well, if LSH actually is in this season, then at least I hope she kills someone major like LF and not a non-presence like Black Walder. Maybe after winning the battle he returns to the Vale but the Brotherhood ambushes his carriage and then they abduct him and take him to LSH. Or maybe he gets invited to Walder Frey's wedding as Lord of Harrenhal and dies at RW 2.0.

I really am wondering who he sees in the trailer. It's snowing, so it's probably in the North, but maybe by the end of the season it will start snowing in the Riverlands. He does look quite apprehensive. Maybe it's Brienne. She's developed a pattern of killing off major characters. But the way the scene is set and the character enters the frame it gives me the impression that he is there to meet someone but then someone else shows up. Anyways, we'll find out soon.

[Cas Stark]

4 minutes ago, Lautrec said:

Well, if LSH actually is in this season, then at least I hope she kills someone major like LF and not a non-presence like Black Walder. Maybe after winning the battle he returns to the Vale but the Brotherhood ambushes his carriage and then they abduct him and take him to LSH. Or maybe he gets invited to Walder Frey's wedding as Lord of Harrenhal and dies at RW 2.0.

I really am wondering who he sees in the trailer. It's snowing, so it's probably in the North, but maybe by the end of the season it will start snowing in the Riverlands. He does look quite apprehensive. Maybe it's Brienne. She's developed a pattern of killing off major characters. But the way the scene is set and the character enters the frame it gives me the impression that he is there to meet someone but then someone else shows up. Anyways, we'll find out soon.

The lighting looks exactly like the shot of Sansa in the snow, same blue/grey tone, same snow, so I would guess it's him meeting Sansa for the first time after he left her at WF.  I don't see the show killing LF this season at all, they love the character and the actor

[Meera of Tarth]

6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The lighting looks exactly like the shot of Sansa in the snow, same blue/grey tone, same snow, so I would guess it's him meeting Sansa for the first time after he left her at WF.  I don't see the show killing LF this season at all, they love the character and the actor

I don't think it either, LSH killing LF? IMO it's too soon for LF to die, and LSH wouldn't appear in the last episode.

However, If LF is seeing Sansa, why is he surprised? His look is very mysterious......

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I don't think it either, LSH killing LF? IMO it's too soon for LF to die, and LSH wouldn't appear in the last episode.

However, If LF is seeing Sansa, why is he surprised? His look is very mysterious......

He's surprised because Show LF had no idea Ramsay was a bad guy, so he will be surprised that Sansa is outside of WF tramping around in the snow, since he thought he left her safe and sound, ready, willing and able to make Ramsay her boy toy.

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

He's surprised because Show LF had no idea Ramsay was a bad guy, so he will be surprised that Sansa is outside of WF tramping around in the snow, since he thought he left her safe and sound, ready, willing and able to make Ramsay her boy toy.

Could be...

[dannyk65]

5 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

He's surprised because Show LF had no idea Ramsay was a bad guy, so he will be surprised that Sansa is outside of WF tramping around in the snow, since he thought he left her safe and sound, ready, willing and able to make Ramsay her boy toy.

Or he's surprised she just survived that ridiculous fall from too high a wall and too little snow

[Ser Matt Dayne]

6 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

It would be great if Martin would give Lady Stoneheart the pleasure of killing LF for destroying her family, but he generally never rewards any character in such a way and since LF is a quasi good guy in the show, this surely will not happen.

I never saw LF on the show as a good guy really. It's clear enough the guy would happily see everything around him implode as long as he was King of the rubble.

He has a weird curiosity/infatuation about Sansa, but I don't think he'd hesitate to drop her if it became beneficial to him.

The guy is scum and does everything out of self interest. 

[Lord_Ravenstone]

37 minutes ago, Ser Matt Dayne said:

I never saw LF on the show as a good guy really. It's clear enough the guy would happily see everything around him implode as long as he was King of the rubble.

He has a weird curiosity/infatuation about Sansa, but I don't think he'd hesitate to drop her if it became beneficial to him.

The guy is scum and does everything out of self interest. 

GRRM's view on LF on Sansa is that he's conflicted. Sometimes he sees Sansa as a piece, sometimes he sees her as the daughter he should've had with Cat and sometimes he sees her as Cat reborn 

[Humble AK]

I would be profoundly disappointed if LSH makes an appearance in the show. I can't say that I actually hate any element in the books (some things I find less interesting than others, some I find somewhat silly), but I come close to it with LSH.

The BWB turning to a hypocritical band was already indicated in the show, and their misplaced path of revenge (killing innocents in the process) would be far more interesting without an annoying zombie leader.

So I would very much like to see the Riverland plot and the North plot come to a close, but please, please, no LSH.

[Ser Matt Dayne]

6 hours ago, Humble AK said:

I would be profoundly disappointed if LSH makes an appearance in the show. I can't say that I actually hate any element in the books (some things I find less interesting than others, some I find somewhat silly), but I come close to it with LSH.

The BWB turning to a hypocritical band was already indicated in the show, and their misplaced path of revenge (killing innocents in the process) would be far more interesting without an annoying zombie leader.

So I would very much like to see the Riverland plot and the North plot come to a close, but please, please, no LSH.

But without LSH, where's the brotherhood's motivation to go on such a revenge spree? Having a leader like her would actually play into their hypocrisy, as now they'd have a leader who honestly couldn't give a damn about they're plundering and stealing as long as it was taken from the right families. Beric and even the Blackfish would feel more morally obligated to lead in a better way.

6 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

GRRM's view on LF on Sansa is that he's conflicted. Sometimes he sees Sansa as a piece, sometimes he sees her as the daughter he should've had with Cat and sometimes he sees her as Cat reborn 

That plays in to what I meant by saying that he has a weird infatuation with her, in that he seems to jump from one extreme feeling to the next with her. I'd be honestly surprised if LF, for all his speeches about revenge for the woman he loved and fondness of Sansa, ever put her before himself to his own detrimental effect.

I mean for all his guff about Sansa taking control starting with the Boltons, I don't believe for one second that Ramsay was an enigma to him that he knew little about. At the very least, he was pitting his novice against a house that was one of the mastermind's behind her family's fall, so he knew what level of the gutter the Bolton's came from.

[jbent87]

Also the Brotherhood doesn't just follow LSH bc shes a "zombie." There have been pieces  placed for this story arc as far back as Clash with Arya developing relationships with them and Beric. They follow LSH out of respect for Arya in a weird sense. If the show is omitting LSH why even spend time on these guys on the show? What was the point exactly? This is why people are overly critical of the show. Bc when they had all of the source material they were infallible.  Now as they branch off and decide to go their own way, some of the things they've already done and established don't make as much sense. 

[Meera of Tarth]

18 hours ago, jbent87 said:

Also the Brotherhood doesn't just follow LSH bc shes a "zombie." There have been pieces  placed for this story arc as far back as Clash with Arya developing relationships with them and Beric. They follow LSH out of respect for Arya in a weird sense. If the show is omitting LSH why even spend time on these guys on the show? What was the point exactly? This is why people are overly critical of the show. Bc when they had all of the source material they were infallible.  Now as they branch off and decide to go their own way, some of the things they've already done and established don't make as much sense. 

[Mister Stoneheart]

Sadly, Brienne's oath to Sansa really puts the last nail in the Michelle Fairley reappearance as LSH.  LSH's vengeance against Brienne exists because the knight did not find any of the girls and made zero progress.  After the oath scene in the premiere, Brienne has successfully fulfilled part of her promise to Mama Stark and there is no satisfying reason for LSH to appear to punish her.

This leads me to believe that Sansa Stark is the new LSH and will be joining up with the brotherhood for some revenge.  The hangings will still occur.  Thoros will be there to provide a familiar face.  Sansa will demand Brienne fetch Jaime for his justice.

Sophie Turner in an interview said she really pursues revenge this year--meaning she must step in as Lady Sansa Heart.

[LadySoftheart]

18 minutes ago, Mister Stoneheart said:

Sadly, Brienne's oath to Sansa really puts the last nail in the Michelle Fairley reappearance as LSH.  LSH's vengeance against Brienne exists because the knight did not find any of the girls and made zero progress.  After the oath scene in the premiere, Brienne has successfully fulfilled part of her promise to Mama Stark and there is no satisfying reason for LSH to appear to punish her.

This leads me to believe that Sansa Stark is the new LSH and will be joining up with the brotherhood for some revenge.  The hangings will still occur.  Thoros will be there to provide a familiar face.  Sansa will demand Brienne fetch Jaime for his justice.

Sophie Turner in an interview said she really pursues revenge this year--meaning she must step in as Lady Sansa Heart.

But why Jaime in particular? Lady Stoneheart pursues Jaime because among the last words that Catelyn Stark heard were Roose Bolton saying "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" - meaning that she thought Jaime had somehow planned the Red Wedding AFTER she set him free and had broken all his oaths to her (she has absolutely no idea that Jaime was a prisoner and maimed by Vargo Hoat) and Brienne showing up with Jaime's letter of safe passage and a Lannister sword and calling for Jaime in her delirium only reinforces the idea that Brienne has gone over to the enemy. 

The show has set up things completely differently: Sansa seems to be seeking revenge on the Boltons mostly because of her rape at the hands of Ramsay (because apparently none of the other things that happened to her family were enough - and because if it were about her family she'd have to pay very close attention to Littlefinger whom she somehow sees as a savior.) Sansa wasn't at the Red Wedding, she never heard "the Lannisters send their regards as Roose stabbed Robb" and the Boltons have gone totally against the Lannisters by marrying Sansa who is still wanted for Joffrey's murder, which had put them on the wrong side against the Lannisters (since Cersei was informed of the marriage by Littlefinger.) Now granted, the show may well forget this or hand wave it the way they hand waved Sansa's marriage to Tyrion (whom she remembered fondly before her marriage to Ramsay, at that.) It seems like the show has set up Boltons and not Freys and Lannisters as Sansa's chief revenge target.

Then there is the matter of Brienne. again, Lady Stoneheart heard Jaime Lannister fingered as the Red Wedding mastermind and then she has Brienne crying out for Jaime in her fever so often that the BwB start calling Brienne the "Kingslayer's whore." Brienne's oath to Sansa on the show, however, is taken in full consciousness and after Brienne has rescued Sansa from recapture by Ramsay; she is not badly wounded, delirious, and seeking to save Hyle Hunt and Podz (which puts her in far more of a commanding position vis-a-vis Sansa). and lastly, apparently Brienne doesn't give two hoots about Jaime on the show anyway (just as well since he's completely obsessed with Cersei) because she hasn't mentioned him, or her vow to find the Stark girls for his sake, one single time since she left King's Landing. Instead of replacing Renly in her subconscious, Jaime is forgotten and Renly is still the one she cares about (vengeance!!!)

none of this means that the show won't have Sansa play Lady Stoneheart, however illogical this sudden change in her views towards Brienne may be (after the Dorne fiasco, I don't think logic plays a role in the creative process for this show) and they sure love to have Sansa play other characters (such as Jeyne Poole) . BUT I suspect that it will be more something along the lines of Sansa sending Brienne to find Arya in the Riverlands (or sending her to Riverrun to see if Arya made it there); then Brienne runs into Jaime at the siege and maybe things play out slightly similarly to the books. Or else we get a Brienne!Smash and she single-handedly saves Catelyn's childhood home from the Freys. Either possibility is equally likely

[jbent87]

58 minutes ago, LadySoftheart said:

But why Jaime in particular? Lady Stoneheart pursues Jaime because among the last words that Catelyn Stark heard were Roose Bolton saying "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" - meaning that she thought Jaime had somehow planned the Red Wedding AFTER she set him free and had broken all his oaths to her (she has absolutely no idea that Jaime was a prisoner and maimed by Vargo Hoat) and Brienne showing up with Jaime's letter of safe passage and a Lannister sword and calling for Jaime in her delirium only reinforces the idea that Brienne has gone over to the enemy. 

The show has set up things completely differently: Sansa seems to be seeking revenge on the Boltons mostly because of her rape at the hands of Ramsay (because apparently none of the other things that happened to her family were enough - and because if it were about her family she'd have to pay very close attention to Littlefinger whom she somehow sees as a savior.) Sansa wasn't at the Red Wedding, she never heard "the Lannisters send their regards as Roose stabbed Robb" and the Boltons have gone totally against the Lannisters by marrying Sansa who is still wanted for Joffrey's murder, which had put them on the wrong side against the Lannisters (since Cersei was informed of the marriage by Littlefinger.) Now granted, the show may well forget this or hand wave it the way they hand waved Sansa's marriage to Tyrion (whom she remembered fondly before her marriage to Ramsay, at that.) It seems like the show has set up Boltons and not Freys and Lannisters as Sansa's chief revenge target.

Then there is the matter of Brienne. again, Lady Stoneheart heard Jaime Lannister fingered as the Red Wedding mastermind and then she has Brienne crying out for Jaime in her fever so often that the BwB start calling Brienne the "Kingslayer's whore." Brienne's oath to Sansa on the show, however, is taken in full consciousness and after Brienne has rescued Sansa from recapture by Ramsay; she is not badly wounded, delirious, and seeking to save Hyle Hunt and Podz (which puts her in far more of a commanding position vis-a-vis Sansa). and lastly, apparently Brienne doesn't give two hoots about Jaime on the show anyway (just as well since he's completely obsessed with Cersei) because she hasn't mentioned him, or her vow to find the Stark girls for his sake, one single time since she left King's Landing. Instead of replacing Renly in her subconscious, Jaime is forgotten and Renly is still the one she cares about (vengeance!!!)

none of this means that the show won't have Sansa play Lady Stoneheart, however illogical this sudden change in her views towards Brienne may be (after the Dorne fiasco, I don't think logic plays a role in the creative process for this show) and they sure love to have Sansa play other characters (such as Jeyne Poole) . BUT I suspect that it will be more something along the lines of Sansa sending Brienne to find Arya in the Riverlands (or sending her to Riverrun to see if Arya made it there); then Brienne runs into Jaime at the siege and maybe things play out slightly similarly to the books. Or else we get a Brienne!Smash and she single-handedly saves Catelyn's childhood home from the Freys. Either possibility is equally likely

great post that really exposes the differences and weird state the show finds itself in now. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

My theory on why they cut out LS is due to the issue of coming back from the dead as "less of oneself." In addition to needing to stream line the story lines generally (so there may not really be time for the LS story line), LS serves in the books as a strong reminder that being resurrected does not really mean coming back to life. Even Beric states in the books that after his first resurrection, he came back as less of himself. So the question in the books is that even if Jon is resurrected, can he still be TPTWP -- or is he now UnJon in some fashion and thus not really the original Jon any longer.

I believe that the books will answer this question by having Jon warg into Ghost, thus preserving his "soul" or "essence" or whatever it might be called in that world, so that when his body is resurrected, all of "him" can be put back into his body. Unlike Beric or LS, Jon won't be UnJon -- but will be his original self (not that warging into Ghost and being assassinated won't have some effect on him) -- he will have been changed only by his experiences and not by having "lost" a part of himself by dying.

The show really cannot get into these issues effectively. Explaining about the loss of oneself in the resurrection process is fairly metaphysical. Having Jon warg into Ghost is not easily displayed on screen, as inner thoughts don't work as well in a visual medium. So if the HBO Show has LS come back as "less than herself" (which she must -- otherwise it really cannot be the LS story line) but Jon comes back as his "whole self" -- they would have no real way to explain the difference (I suppose they could come up with a lame excuse, but it would detract from the story).

So when deciding what story lines to chop -- chopping LS became an easy decision. One of her main purposes in the books (to raise the stakes for what a resurrection of Jon would mean) became a liability rather than an asset.

[Meera of Tarth]

31 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

My theory on why they cut out LS is due to the issue of coming back from the dead as "less of oneself." In addition to needing to stream line the story lines generally (so there may not really be time for the LS story line), LS serves in the books as a strong reminder that being resurrected does not really mean coming back to life. Even Beric states in the books that after his first resurrection, he came back as less of himself. So the question in the books is that even if Jon is resurrected, can he still be TPTWP -- or is he now UnJon in some fashion and thus not really the original Jon any longer.

I believe that the books will answer this question by having Jon warg into Ghost, thus preserving his "soul" or "essence" or whatever it might be called in that world, so that when his body is resurrected, all of "him" can be put back into his body. Unlike Beric or LS, Jon won't be UnJon -- but will be his original self (not that warging into Ghost and being assassinated won't have some effect on him) -- he will have been changed only by his experiences and not by having "lost" a part of himself by dying.

The show really cannot get into these issues effectively. Explaining about the loss of oneself in the resurrection process is fairly metaphysical. Having Jon warg into Ghost is not easily displayed on screen, as inner thoughts don't work as well in a visual medium. So if the HBO Show has LS come back as "less than herself" (which she must -- otherwise it really cannot be the LS story line) but Jon comes back as his "whole self" -- they would have no real way to explain the difference (I suppose they could come up with a lame excuse, but it would detract from the story).

So when deciding what story lines to chop -- chopping LS became an easy decision. One of her main purposes in the books (to raise the stakes for what a resurrection of Jon would mean) became a liability rather than an asset.

I don't agree with that. I don't think it would have been very difficult to show the two Unversions as different. On the contrary, they would just have had to show the actions of each one. And They had Beric before to show it...... 

If Jon revives and he is not changed, LS would have been a good contraposition.

However, if Jon revives as UnJon (like LS) then I can try to understand why they might have cut LSH, because it may diminish  the UnJOn creature. However, it could have made sense too to put her in the show.

[Ser Quork]

18 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I don't agree with that. I don't think it would have been very difficult to show the two Unversions as different. On the contrary, they would just have had to show the actions of each one. And They had Beric before to show it...... 

If Jon revives and he is not changed, LS would have been a good contraposition.

However, if Jon revives as UnJon (like LS) then I can try to understand why they might have cut LSH, because it may diminish  the UnJOn creature. However, it could have made sense too to put her in the show.

I would have thought putting LSH in the show would have created a different kind of buzz about Jon's death - some viewers would have been fearful that Jon would be resurrected like LSH, others that he'd be like Beric, & so on.  They still would have had a buzz and uncertainty.

[UnmaskedLurker]

27 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I don't agree with that. I don't think it would have been very difficult to show the two Unversions as different. On the contrary, they would just have had to show the actions of each one. And They had Beric before to show it...... 

If Jon revives and he is not changed, LS would have been a good contraposition.

However, if Jon revives as UnJon (like LS) then I can try to understand why they might have cut LSH, because it may diminish  the UnJOn creature. However, it could have made sense too to put her in the show.

But if Jon comes back as the "real" Jon and not UnJon -- how do they explain the difference? Without the warging into Ghost -- which they seem to have cut for good reasons (hard to have wolf-thoughts in a TV show) -- it would create a big plot hole trying to explain why LS came back so different but Jon came back as himself. Sure they could do it -- but it would make no sense because there would not be a reason for the difference.

[Ser Quork]

7 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

But if Jon comes back as the "real" Jon and not UnJon -- how do they explain the difference? Without the warging into Ghost -- which they seem to have cut for good reasons (hard to have wolf-thoughts in a TV show) -- it would create a big plot hole trying to explain why LS came back so different but Jon came back as himself. Sure they could do it -- but it would make no sense because there would not be a reason for the difference.

I feel Jon warging Ghost would have been so easy to have set up - just a few sequences like Bran's in previous seasons.  Then in this season we could have seen Bran reaching out to Ghost after Jon's death and realising Jon is there.  It could have been done, if they'd wanted.