why was Ladystoneheart cut out

[Ser Quork]

1 minute ago, Ser Matt Dayne said:

The Riverun set up I can look past but I am absolutely bewildered at the introduction of Lem and his renegades, without having LSH as their leader.

It just seems pointless to me, like they plucked a random character out of the book and made him super evil, just so the Hound can have his awesome ass kicking sequence. 

That being said, I've heard nothing of Beric or Richard Dormer returning. Arya back in Riverun and completing a massacre before the end of the season would be ludicrous even by their own time bending standards, so it's not over yet. 

But unfortunately it seems like all the reliable leaks have been consistent on the matter: she's out.

Well, they like to these revenge killings to excess: Meryn Trant was on Arya's list for killing Syrio.  We know he's a bad guy because he beat Sansa.  D&D made him a violent paedophile as well so we got an uber-violent slasher killing sequence.

Joffrey had violence added (prostitutes brutalising each other and his using a crossbow to kill Ros); and Ramsay's numerous (and now quite ridiculous) levels of villain-sue violence.

I still find it extraordinary that LSH, the embodiment of their favourite theme Revenge is not in the party.

[Reuben Stoneheart]

I just feel D&D are now deliberately trolling LSH fans.

I just find it really disrespectful to be honest.

[Lautrec]

2 hours ago, Reuben Stoneheart said:

I just feel D&D are now deliberately trolling LSH fans.

I just find it really disrespectful to be honest.

How so?

[Meera of Tarth]

beric's actor said he wasn't returbing.

and we know that Bower serves an horror

so either lsh is a great secret or the showrunners thibk that Beric is lsh; which doesn't make sense

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, Lautrec said:

How so?

if you read the last 10 pages of the thread you will see all the speculation and hints we are talking about.

this season has a great amount of hints for lsh to return.

i still think she has 2x100 of chances to return but if the new info is correct and beric is lsh; which dowsn't make sense; the result is playing with our expectations.

[Lautrec]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

if you read the last 10 pages of the thread you will see all the speculation and hints we are talking about.

this season has a great amount of hints for lsh to return.

i still think she has 2x100 of chances to return but if the new info is correct and beric is lsh; which dowsn't make sense; the result is playing with our expectations.

I think it's more that you all want LSH to appear so you are seeing hints and clues where there are none.

[CrypticWeirwood]

3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

if you read the last 10 pages of the thread you will see all the speculation and hints we are talking about.

this season has a great amount of hints for lsh to return.

i still think she has 2x100 of chances to return but if the new info is correct and beric is lsh; which dowsn't make sense; the result is playing with our expectations.

Perhaps another actor than Richard Dormer was cast to play whatever became of Beric.

[CrypticWeirwood]

5 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Perhaps another actor than Richard Dormer was cast to play whatever became of Beric.

Although I'm not sure how well that would satisfy various screenwriting principles about economy. 

[Meera of Tarth]

2 hours ago, Lautrec said:

I think it's more that you all want LSH to appear so you are seeing hints and clues where there are none.

probably......maybe we arw seeing things more than the average viewer' but the hints exist.

some clues. Showrunners avoiding to talk about lsh in conic cons.....in the inside the episodes saying they chosed Bran's visions and one is Cat; The horror from the casting calls; hanging the the traitors and Ray; the bwb being evil; Cat's throat being mentioned several times.....

the return of benjen...he was mwntioned too six episodes before him returning......

this thread is still active because all these things

[Vivienne Vee]

2 hours ago, Lautrec said:

I think it's more that you all want LSH to appear so you are seeing hints and clues where there are none.

I wouldn't say there are hints and clues everywhere, so much as that if LSH were going to appear on the show, now is the right time.

We have the confluence of the siege of Riverrun (which we thought may be a dropped plot last season) bringing Jaime and Brienne back together in the Brotherhood's stomping grounds, the reintroduction of the BWB and notable BWB characters like Lem Lemoncloak as more sinister figures than we last saw, and a season where resurrection and life-after-death is the dominant theme. Jon has been revived, the Mountain is stomping around like Frankenstein's monster, and Sandor Clegane has been reborn a new man - maybe. Dany is reborn in fire yet again, Theon is trying to learn how to live again, and Edmure Tully is emerging from the dungeons of Walder Frey after what seems like years of imprisonment. By the end of the season we can also likely expect Arya to be saved from the brink of death and emerge somehow changed and possibly start seeing the Jaime Lannister who wants to be a hero and a knight again as a consequence of this Riverrun scenario and his further interaction with Brienne as well.

From a writing standpoint, in terms of both themes and plot, the time to introduce LSH is now. Whether they actually will remains to be seen. I don't think they "need" to and I think the chances are about 50/50 at best, but I think she's an eerie and compelling character, and that most of the arguments for her non-inclusion (such as being too fantastic, or devaluing Jon's resurrection) hold almost no water.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Perhaps another actor than Richard Dormer was cast to play whatever became of Beric.

could be

[Lautrec]

13 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

probably......maybe we arw seeing things more than the average viewer' but the hints exist.

some clues. Showrunners avoiding to talk about lsh in conic cons.....in the inside the episodes saying they chosed Bran's visions and one is Cat; The horror from the casting calls; hanging the the traitors and Ray; the bwb being evil; Cat's throat being mentioned several times.....

the return of benjen...he was mwntioned too six episodes before him returning......

this thread is still active because all these things

True enough, there are hints, and D&D do have a tendency to name-drop long lost characters a few episodes before they are to appear, but I think all of these hints could be rather taken as evidence that the BWB would appear, and them being coy about LSH is just not wishing to spoil (though Martin has confirmed she is cut).

 

 

14 minutes ago, Vivienne Vee said:

I wouldn't say there are hints and clues everywhere, so much as that if LSH were going to appear on the show, now is the right time.

We have the confluence of the siege of Riverrun (which we thought may be a dropped plot last season) bringing Jaime and Brienne back together in the Brotherhood's stomping grounds, the reintroduction of the BWB and notable BWB characters like Lem Lemoncloak as more sinister figures than we last saw, and a season where resurrection and life-after-death is the dominant theme. Jon has been revived, the Mountain is stomping around like Frankenstein's monster, and Sandor Clegane has been reborn a new man - maybe. Dany is reborn in fire yet again, Theon is trying to learn how to live again, and Edmure Tully is emerging from the dungeons of Walder Frey after what seems like years of imprisonment. By the end of the season we can also likely expect Arya to be saved from the brink of death and emerge somehow changed and possibly start seeing the Jaime Lannister who wants to be a hero and a knight again as a consequence of this Riverrun scenario and his further interaction with Brienne as well.

From a writing standpoint, in terms of both themes and plot, the time to introduce LSH is now. Whether they actually will remains to be seen. I don't think they "need" to and I think the chances are about 50/50 at best, but I think she's an eerie and compelling character, and that most of the arguments for her non-inclusion (such as being too fantastic, or devaluing Jon's resurrection) hold almost no water.

I agree, if they are ever going to introduce her, the time is now, and if she doesn't appear by the end of the season then it's pretty much confirmed she is cut (though we've all been saying this every season since the S3 finale). But admittedly the argument against her inclusion at this point is that it's been so long since the RW that her appearing would seem like a pointless shock.

[Meera of Tarth]

• it wouldn't be a pointless shock; on the contrary. It has been discussed here before. Of course not everyone likes her but I hate the mointain and he has reappeared and he is secondary character.

 

• Emilia said the season would have a lot of shocks that would be mental......LSH fits that description.

 

• And the hints I mentioned point to LSH . They are about Cat's trhoat; the vision of her being killed. .......

 

• and Many people resurrecting.......the theme of the season is clearly: the dead.

 

• Of course they also mentioned the bwb and they are reappearing. But we also knew that a lot of months ago.

 

• and Martin statiung she is cut doesn't mean she can't appear. He said the same last year. Why would he spoil everyone just now? We know now  almost for certain he was being sincere but we had been discussing for days that we didn't know the exact question and the exact response.....so

 

• why would showrunners avoid talking if she is cut or not if they are not planning to put her....finally.....in this season just when alnost everyone has thought she had been already cut? It's the perfect moment to reintroduce her.

 

• And let's not forget about two years ago Lena Headey with the SH pic.. They might have cut her before (they said S4 was not THE MOMENT!) but now...it would even be a better shock!

 

• The hints and the moment are perfect for she to appear.

 

• with the leaked info (that many people think it's true) we can argue she has been cut but that doesn't disminiss all the clues, the moment and that there are still chances for her. Though very few.

 

• And I won't say anything more. It has been discussed during days. I am very disappointed and almost in denial because I think it doesn't make sense if she is cut in terms of hinting and good storytelling but if she doesn't appear in the next 3 episodes then there will be no need for more speculation' but until then we have the right to believe in what the story is telling us: That LSH's moment is now.

 

 

[Meera of Tarth]

sorry for my awful spelling. i can't write well with my mobile phone.

Just edited my post! Now I have summarised everything. And the basic points that we speculated through countless pages are more clear. Of course there is more. But I don't want to summarise everything, the thread is worth reading.

As I said, last post in a long while if there is not more info about her/Beric 

[Darksky]

Beric is a better character than LSH. I'd rather have him back than that corny unCat.

 

[Desert Fox]

I think it's entirely too late for LSH to appear, but I get the spculation. The sudden return to the Riverlands and the reappearance of the Bw/B do sort of lead to LSH. 

[SerMixalot]

17 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Beric is a better character than LSH. I'd rather have him back than that corny unCat.

 

Yeah, a former Stark acting as a vengeance force against all and sundry-motivated by something that directly happened to her and her family-corny

Beyond tertiary character- better character

That position lacks something

[Vivienne Vee]

Beric and LSH are both compelling characters, and one lays the groundwork for the other. 

Beric is a character we root for early in the series fighting the "good fight" against real villains. He serves thematically as a reminder of what war costs the people who fight it, and to establish that unnatural resurrection has haunting consequences in this setting. Lady Stoneheart takes those ideas to their extremity as an avatar of vengeance, an idea which Martin treats as dangerous, the root of all these eternal wars and retaliatory acts of violence. While it's impossible to know her ultimate role at this point, I think she'll serve to make us question our desire for "justified" violence and acts of vengeful justice as we move to our story's conclusion - as many readers root for Dany to conquer Westeros and retake her "rightful" throne, or for Jon to crush all of House Stark's enemies.

There's a bunch of stuff I'd sooner have seen cut than either of them, honestly.

[Darksky]

The whole concept of LSH is corny. Her looks, her behaviour (she don't speak but she remember lol), the way she was brought back, why she was brought back...

yeah why was she? Maybe my memory is hazy but why did Beric do what he did for her specifically? Why didn't they pay her respect and give her a proper burial instead of jumping to the resurrection part? Why do BwB follow her?

LSH is just a convenient plot device to have revenge plot in the Riverlands. I'd rather see other Starks (and/or their loyalists) take care of the Freys instead of that gimmicky zombie who's not even Catelyn but something else entirely considering Martin's view on resurrection.

[The Fattest Leech]

3 minutes ago, Darksky said:

The whole concept of LSH is corny. Her looks, her behaviour (she don't speak but she remember lol), the way she was brought back, why she was brought back...

yeah why was she? Maybe my memory is hazy but why did Beric do what he did for her specifically? Why didn't they pay her respect and give her a proper burial instead of jumping to the resurrection part? Why do BwB follow her?

LSH is just a convenient plot device to have revenge plot in the Riverlands. I'd rather see other Starks (and/or their loyalists) take care of the Freys instead of that gimmicky zombie who's not even Catelyn but something else entirely considering Martin's view on resurrection.

Everything in your second paragraph is addressed and answered in the books.