SerMixalot Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 1 minute ago, Darksky said: The whole concept of LSH is corny. Her looks, her behaviour (she don't speak but she remember lol), the way she was brought back, why she was brought back... yeah why was she? Maybe my memory is hazy but why did Beric do what he did for her specifically? Why didn't they pay her respect and give her a proper burial instead of jumping to the resurrection part? Why do BwB follow her? LSH is just a convenient plot device to have revenge plot in the Riverlands. I'd rather see other Starks (and/or their loyalists) take care of the Freys instead of that gimmicky zombie who's not even Catelyn but something else entirely considering Martin's view on resurrection. LSH is important if you care about themes and such. You know, the destructive results of misguided vengeance, the inherent injustice of group punishment. LSH is something that echoes back to ancient mythology Wanting the Starks (and/or their loyalists) wanting to get revenge misses GRRMs point-here's a hint, it has to do with hanging a poor miserable drunk Frey who had nothing to do with the RW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lautrec Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 12 minutes ago, SerMixalot said: LSH is important if you care about themes and such. You know, the destructive results of misguided vengeance, the inherent injustice of group punishment. LSH is something that echoes back to ancient mythology Wanting the Starks (and/or their loyalists) wanting to get revenge misses GRRMs point-here's a hint, it has to do with hanging a poor miserable drunk Frey who had nothing to do with the RW Themes are nice, but all stories have themes inherently, and they are not in any way an excuse for poor storytelling. Catelyn suddenly coming back to life 30 episodes (and 3 years in real-time) after her death would be a borderline jumpi-the-shark moment. Imagine if Ned suddenly came back to life in the S4 finale, completely out of the blue. We can all discuss the hints, and never mind the qualities of LSH as a character, but there is no real, in-universe set-up and foreshadowing for her at this point, short of an occasional name-drop for Catelyn and a re-introduction to the BBW, the former being completely insubstantial in terms of foreshadowing and the later being easily explained as just being what it is and what we'll get but without LSH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Gabe Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 13 minutes ago, Darksky said: The whole concept of LSH is corny. Her looks, her behaviour (she don't speak but she remember lol), the way she was brought back, why she was brought back... yeah why was she? Maybe my memory is hazy but why did Beric do what he did for her specifically? Why didn't they pay her respect and give her a proper burial instead of jumping to the resurrection part? Why do BwB follow her? LSH is just a convenient plot device to have revenge plot in the Riverlands. I'd rather see other Starks (and/or their loyalists) take care of the Freys instead of that gimmicky zombie who's not even Catelyn but something else entirely considering Martin's view on resurrection. To the bolded, Martin's problem with LOTR was that Gandalf came back stronger than before. Martin's resurrections have come, as all magic has, at a price. We only get Thoros' recollections about Beric reviving her. I think it is suggested that Beric was so disillusioned at coming back so many times and losing so much of himself that he wanted to give his life for hers. Since the BWB have been following the Lord of Light they believe it happened for a reason and, even if they disapprove of their new MO, they think R'hllor is dictating their new route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darksky Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 yes Martin's resurrected characters come back worse for wear (some more some less, doubt Beric changed much after his first rezz)), which is why I don't understand show/book fans having expected Jon to come back as some self-assured, hardened, mission-oriented badass doing rousing speeches every firve minutes, and not a PTSD-riddled war veteran who has lost confidence and purpose. which is more realistic given what he went through and came back from (the black void of death). But I digress. Beric was disillusioned at coming back, so he could have simply ordered Thoros not to bring him back next time he was killed. Could have done that anytime after his first or second or third resurrection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vivienne Vee Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 But Thoros is a tragic figure and merely a man as well. His resurrection of Beric was miraculous. It renewed his faith and gave a drunken failure a new sense of purpose. To admit that was a mistake - to watch a broken Beric beg to die, the whole scenario having availed nothing - is a hell of a thing. Easier, maybe, to see Beric's final death as a noble sacrifice toward an even greater end: setting to right the grievous and unforgivable sin of the Red Wedding. Tragic, well-intentioned mistakes compounding until reason is lost and horror remains is the stuff these books are made of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 26 minutes ago, Lautrec said: Themes are nice, but all stories have themes inherently, and they are not in any way an excuse for poor storytelling. Catelyn suddenly coming back to life 30 episodes (and 3 years in real-time) after her death would be a borderline jumpi-the-shark moment. Imagine if Ned suddenly came back to life in the S4 finale, completely out of the blue. We can all discuss the hints, and never mind the qualities of LSH as a character, but there is no real, in-universe set-up and foreshadowing for her at this point, short of an occasional name-drop for Catelyn and a re-introduction to the BBW, the former being completely insubstantial in terms of foreshadowing and the later being easily explained as just being what it is and what we'll get but without LSH. I for one don't disagree that bringing LSH into the show at this point would be stupid. I was arguing her importance as a character in the book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reuben Stoneheart Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 7 hours ago, Lautrec said: How so? Was just about to type out a big reply to you but I see Meera of Tarth has saved me the bother : 2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said: probably......maybe we arw seeing things more than the average viewer' but the hints exist. some clues. Showrunners avoiding to talk about lsh in conic cons.....in the inside the episodes saying they chosed Bran's visions and one is Cat; The horror from the casting calls; hanging the the traitors and Ray; the bwb being evil; Cat's throat being mentioned several times..... the return of benjen...he was mwntioned too six episodes before him returning...... this thread is still active because all these things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darksky Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Not that I think including LSH anytime in the show would have been good but they include characters when they are needed. Why would they have introduced her at the end of season 3 only to have her barely do anything and then have her sit out two seasons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyFrostheart Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 I feel that when others refer to her as a 'mindless zombie' just don't understand what she is about, so ofcourse they don't care about her coming back. Being a creative person, I see a lot of cool things you could do with her character, there's potential for something memorable. She has only had a few scenes in the books, she did not have the chance to show us how much humanity is really left. The question is, do D&D also see that potential, or are they with the people that do not understand this 'zombie' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vivienne Vee Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 32 minutes ago, Darksky said: Not that I think including LSH anytime in the show would have been good but they include characters when they are needed. Why would they have introduced her at the end of season 3 only to have her barely do anything and then have her sit out two seasons? I agree with this whole-heartedly, which is presumably why they *didn't* bring her back at the end of season 3. Thematically, this season is about rebirth and resurrection. Plotwise, this season is finally addressing the political fallout of the Red Wedding (bringing back Freys and Tullys, having Northern houses reluctant to join Jon because of what happened to Robb). Season 6 is the appropriate time in the show for them to introduce LSH, if they're going to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morna White Mask Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 15 hours ago, Kelly Koehorst said: Some of those spoilers are not making sense to me. So apparently Lemoncloak and the other 2 where acting all by themselves, just the 3 of them, because they felt like it. Beric is alive, so he is supposed to be the 'horror' they serve now? Maybe died a dozen more times and turned into a corrupted monster? Hide contents Arya is wandering the streets at this moment, lost and badly wounded. But in a few episodes she is already at the twins, and has put herself into a position where she is able to poison/bake pies? Brienne returning Oathkeeper to Jamie? Doesn't she still have the sword in the promo after leaving Riverrun? Also this leaker casually forgot to mention the death of Wun Wun before. It's depressing, especially after all the foreshadowing going on lately, putting all the pieces in place, only to suddenly derail like that. Mustn't give... up... hope.... until credits roll on season finale... ugh A random thought that has nothing to do with anything other than the contents of your spoiler tags: Spoiler What if they somehow rope Hot Pie in to the Frey Pies plot? Arya could catch up with him in That One Inn That Everyone Ends Up Visiting, which I think was where we last saw him. Thinking about it, I'm actually a little scared this might happen lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticWeirwood Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 2 hours ago, Darksky said: The whole concept of LSH is corny. Her looks, her behaviour (she don't speak but she remember lol), the way she was brought back, why she was brought back... yeah why was she? Maybe my memory is hazy but why did Beric do what he did for her specifically? Why didn't they pay her respect and give her a proper burial instead of jumping to the resurrection part? Why do BwB follow her? LSH is just a convenient plot device to have revenge plot in the Riverlands. I'd rather see other Starks (and/or their loyalists) take care of the Freys instead of that gimmicky zombie who's not even Catelyn but something else entirely considering Martin's view on resurrection. If Catelyn is a zombie, then Beric is a zombie. If Catelyn is a zombie, then Benjen is a zombie. If Catelyn is a zombie, then Jon is a zombie. Hint: None of them is a zombie, no not one. And when the horn that wakes the sleepers sounds, neither shall they be zombies, either. The true tragedy here is seeing everything and everyone through the myopic lens of zombie-tinted glasses imposed by today’s trash culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticWeirwood Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 1 hour ago, Vivienne Vee said: I agree with this whole-heartedly, which is presumably why they *didn't* bring her back at the end of season 3. Thematically, this season is about rebirth and resurrection. Plotwise, this season is finally addressing the political fallout of the Red Wedding (bringing back Freys and Tullys, having Northern houses reluctant to join Jon because of what happened to Robb). Season 6 is the appropriate time in the show for them to introduce LSH, if they're going to. No matter whether they do so or not, it's still the appropriate time in the show for them to introduce Catelyn’s return. It simply would not have worked earlier. Now it makes sense. Which, alas, is really no indication of anything. Perhaps the sand steaks can take on that rôle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meera of Tarth Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 CrypticWeirwood.......couldn't be explained better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Quork Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 8 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said: If Catelyn is a zombie, then Beric is a zombie. If Catelyn is a zombie, then Benjen is a zombie. If Catelyn is a zombie, then Jon is a zombie. Hint: None of them is a zombie, no not one. And when the horn that wakes the sleepers sounds, neither shall they be sleepers, either. The true tragedy here is seeing everything and everyone through the myopic lens of zombie-tinted glasses imposed by today’s trash culture. Very well said, in all respects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Matt Dayne Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 I'm not sure how anyone can put their head in the sand and still play the same old tune of "you're seeing things that aren't there." Let's ignore all the very good points people have made except for one: Lemoncloak. Explain to me why, if D&D aren't trying to send us up the wrong tree, they chose a character who is integral to LSH's introduction to advance a plot.....not related to LSH? Why didn't they come up with their own shit like they have on various occasions instead of introducing a character from the book in an unnecessary situation? Why did it have to be Lemoncloak that is used as the sacrificial lamb for The Hound's triumphant kick ass return? Explain to me how his introduction is in anyway worthwhile while omitting his most noteworthy moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lautrec Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 3 hours ago, SerMixalot said: I for one don't disagree that bringing LSH into the show at this point would be stupid. I was arguing her importance as a character in the book Fair enough, though I'd still say she is trivial in the books because of the poor execution, but whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 It's been 16 years since LSH appeared in the books. There's been two books released since her first appearance. Thus far her plot has been hang random Freys and tell Brienne to kill Jamie. Literally two significant scenes thus far. That's the reason she didn't come back yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Stoneheart Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 R.I.P. Lady Stoneheart. It's been fun waiting for her, guys. Too bad D&D are hack douches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Yeah she's not coming back. So her storyline probably ends once Brienne brings Jamie back to her. I always felt like it was going to end up being a more personal thing for the three of them anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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