Jump to content
Black Dragons

why was Ladystoneheart cut out

Recommended Posts

^ I can honestly see that happening in the show. We've already seen characters and even whole scenes/chapters merged together so it would not supprise me if Sansa got merged like that into different character again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty sure she's cut.

Well, yes. That's how she died in the first place. [incessant sniggering]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because she isn't important to the main plot?

Also, resurrections are lame and lessen the threat of death to main characters, especially if you believe one of the other main characters is going to be going through it in the near future.

I don't think it's lessened the threat. As far as resurrected characters, we have:

Beric Dondarrion

Lady Stoneheart

Gregor Clegane (likely)

Jon Snow (likely)

Even though the books have four (likely) resurrected characters, at no point am I willing to believe that Grand Maester Pycelle is still alive, or even Kevan Lannister. They're dead because there's no realistic way for them to return.

Gregor Clegane has mad-scientist Qyburn at his side. Makes sense.

Jon Snow can be saved by either the White Walkers, Melisandre, the Old Gods, some other strange force. Makes sense.

If Jaime Lannister were to be cleaved in half in Book 6 and left for dead, I don't think there's a good chance he'd be back, unless Qyburn was with him or he has an old priest and a Red priest.

Still rooting for the Hound, though.

Sellsword, you're right in that I didn't qualify the specific remarks you singled out especially well

It is bold and pretty gutsy, imo, to bring back a character we've got to know as an undead character; certainly it carries a risk of accusations of jumping the shark or that 'dead no longer means dead', etc. for a show that has built a reputation on shock & awe as far as character deaths are concerned.

So yes, that takes considerable nerve in a visual medium, imo: first in putting her on screen in a believable context that works (no doubt requiring flashbacks & direwolf sfx if it wasn't to rely too heavily on the mother of all info-dumps from Thoros) Secondly, for HBO in terms of maintaining the show's credulity.

Where it might be more straightforward, for example, to bring Sofia or Merle back briefly in The Walking Dead for all of 60 seconds in an emotive little montage before they're offed, it would be harder, I'd imagine, to have them interacting as sentient beings week-in-week out with other characters or leading a faction of rebels in an organised uprising. And this is still a mute dead woman. Riiiiight ...

My feeling, as I said, is that the show paradoxically lacks the confidence with supernatural aspects it does not in its emphasis on betrayal, trial by combat or the high drama & intrigue of political power-brokering, which is invariably expertly done.

So much is bold and daring about Game of Thrones except the more overtly supernatural, and I've always found that curious in what is still a fantasy show. Some of that is down to budgetary considerations, no question. The rest I'm not so sure. If every supernatural moment was handled as brilliantly as the white walker delivering the baby to the Night's King in season 4 this argument would be null & void, but sadly that scene was the exception not the rule.

Whether or not they ultimately shied away from Stoneheart because of the visual and pacing/plotting challenge she represents with most of her story still left hanging ( :ack: sorry ...) or it was just a matter of a cleaner, tidy edit to accelerate & dovetail Northern plotlines in the show, is not, as I already said, a question I can answer. I can guess why they passed up a cracking horror opportunity with the potential for some real emotional heft behind it. I can never know.

As for excising the Riverlands, I personally found Jaime's threats to Edmure about his child in the catapult pretty chilling ... the seemingly genuine love that developed between Edmure & Roslin Frey despite horrendous odds genuinely moving ... the random Freys becoming hanging corpses decorating belts of misty woodland with salt stuffed in their mouths a bona fide nightmare. But that's just me.

All I've seen of Dorne so far is weak sauce and bad acting by comparison.

The Riverlands would be leagues better than the Dorne storyline. The time spent sending Jaime blundering around the countryside could easily be spent with Jaime on a mission to the Riverlands. Keeps the Freys in. Keeps the Tullys in. And you can still get Dorne in, and instead of using Jaime and Bronn to link the Sandsnakes to the main story, you use Ellaria Sand. The watchers don't need Jaime there to understand Myrcella/Trystane/Dorne.

I think she's cut...

But I think someone like the Blackfish will take her place.

I don't think the Blackfish is a big enough character to take her place. The greatness of Lady Stoneheart comes from her role as a great Tully and Stark. Blackfish was a solid character in the book, laughable in the show. Watchers enjoyed Catelyn, as downplayed as she was in the show.

Yeah the show definitely has opportunities for one or more Northern Vengeance characters that could serve a similar function to Stoneheart. It's looking like Sansa might even be one of them. (Considering how things are playing out on the show thus far, it wouldn't surprise me if she becomes as much a replacement for Wyman Manderly and Lady Dustin as she is for Jeyne Poole.)

The finale of Season 3 makes too big of a point of Roose and Walder acknowledging the Blackfish's escape for nothing to come of that. Even more interestingly, the show specifically has Bran namecheck Greatjon Umber as a person Osha/Rickon might find refuge with. I realize that the real reason Umber disappeared from Season 2 and 3 was because of actor availability, but even if it wasn't what was originally planned, Bryan Cogman has acknowledged that Umber's absence from the Red Wedding means he is still alive in show canon. I see that dialog from Bran (pointedly not in the books) as the writers at least keeping the door open for the Greatjon's return.

Brienne namecheked Catelyn a whole lot last season, and that led to a great deal of disappointment.

^ I can honestly see that happening in the show. We've already seen characters and even whole scenes/chapters merged together so it would not supprise me if Sansa got merged like that into different character again.

I think Sansa has other plans in mind in the books, namely coordinating the Vale against the Boltons and entering the endgame with armies and a marriage under her belt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So anyone think the inclusion of a Riverlands character in a (likely) Septon Meribald cast call on the new casting list adds any credence to the idea that we'll be getting back there for longer periods & the M.I.A. Stoneheart-led BWB eventually?



Or is it more likely, do you think, to be a merge with the elder brother character and a set up for the gravedigger/return of The Hound?



Obviously, of itself, no confirmation whatsoever that Brienne returns to the Riverlands when she's already so far north, but fascinating nonetheless ....



Me, I'm still holding out (like an idiot twice bitten, clearly) for a shocker finale entrance this year to see things out on a little less of a Stark downer after Jon's inevitable 'Caesaring', with Roose or Ramsay in her noose come the end of season 5 .... :devil:



Rope springs eternal.


Edited by Damorian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Addign to the Sansa as LSH:



I could see LSH already existing in the show as a myth created by the BWB. The BWB now concentrating their energies on the Lannister-approved Freys (now wardens of the riverlands) and adopting LSH's would-be quest for vengence and creating the myth known as LSH. Eventually Sansa joins them and is the perfect candidate to embody the already created myth.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well the title of the finale is out, and make of "Mother's Mercy" what you will.



If it strictly refers to Cersei's plotline and is another Mhysa without multiple meanings (besides maybe Selyse?) then, okay.



The question for me now is whether D&D know that one of Stoneheart's monikers is actually .... Mother Merciless. The corresponding polar opposite of that title.



Are they screwing with those still remotely hoping for the fallen Stark matriarch, one last time?



Or are they not? One thing is for certain, were she to appear in the final scene of this this episode, her rise alongside Cersei's downfall would be epic as hell.




***CORRECTION: From A Feast For Crows, Appendices - page 836 "Outlaws and Broken Men":



"LADY STONEHEART: A hooded woman, sometimes called MOTHER MERCY, THE SILENT SISTER, and THE HANGWOMAN."





My memory failed me. So that particular moniker of hers is an even closer fit. So it's even more intriguing. Hmmmm.

Edited by Damorian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems a little cruel to all the people waiting for Stoneheart if she weren't in...however I can easily see D&D being completely unaware that Lady Mercy is one of her monikers, and the coincidence is simply just that.


Edited by Mister Stoneheart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems a little cruel to all the people waiting for Stoneheart if she weren't in...however I can easily see D&D being completely unaware that Lady Mercy is one of her monikers, and the coincidence is simply just that.

MOTHER Mercy, not Lady.

And count on it, they know.

:devil: Roose for the noose! Roose for the noose! Roose for the ... yeah, I'm done too getting my hopes up. :frown5:

Never gonna happen.

Edited by Damorian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems a little cruel to all the people waiting for Stoneheart if she weren't in...however I can easily see D&D being completely unaware that Lady Mercy is one of her monikers, and the coincidence is simply just that.

I can see them being unaware too, but isn't it Cogman's job to know all these things?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly. They have plenty of ASOI&F minded people working with them, even if they overlook the finer details sometimes themselves.



Imo, it's just hugely unlikely they didn't know that episode title was one apostrophe 's' away from an alternative name for Stoneheart.



They're fucking with us, or she's in.


Edited by Damorian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't buy the whole "D&D wouldn't be comfortable bringing back an esteemed actress like Michelle Fairley to play a glorified zombie" excuse. Stoneheart would be an EPIC role for Fairley to play and I'd bet she'd gladly accept the role.

Sadly, I'm 99% certain that she's been totally cut (there's always that 1% glimmer of hope to grasp onto though!).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding the title for the season finale being "Mother's Mercy" - as much as I want it to be about Stoneheart, I doubt that it is; surely this will be referring to Cersei's walk of shame?

Didn't the High Sparrow tell her in the last episode that if she pleads guilty she will be shown the "Mother's Mercy"?

Edited by Reuben Stoneheart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was never any doubt that on one level, the title refers to Cersei's walk of shame and that the High Sparrow used the phrase this episode. Doubt arises in so far as :



a.) Episode titles often have more then one 'thematic' meaning.



b.) In full knowledge of how people last year anticipated/reacted to the lack of Lady Stoneheart in the finale (trending on Twitter, for God's sake) why would they then choose two words for this one which are one apostophe 's' away from a known alternate name for her?



Masochists? Possibly. No longer give a shit about book readers? Also possible too. But I don't think David and Dan are stupid or would deliberately court another adverse finale reaction like that one where the episode becomes as infamous for what's not in it as what is.



I also happen to think, bar the odd inevitable misstep in the adaptation process, they're pretty decent, hard-working guys and not the hacks they get lambasted as being by broad sections of the readership.



For all those reasons, my feeling this time is that it IS a kind of troll, a nod and wink to those anticipating Mother Mercy sans apostrophe, no question. But since I don't believe they're sadists who enjoy setting people like us up to fail, hopefully one with a much more positive outcome this time in that they may just cut the book readers a break.


Edited by Damorian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sure we'll be having this discussion again a year from now when the title of S06E10 is released and it's something like "Stones" or something...


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't buy the whole "D&D wouldn't be comfortable bringing back an esteemed actress like Michelle Fairley to play a glorified zombie" excuse. Stoneheart would be an EPIC role for Fairley to play and I'd bet she'd gladly accept the role.

Sadly, I'm 99% certain that she's been totally cut (there's always that 1% glimmer of hope to grasp onto though!).

well yeah cuz they can always beef up the role of Stoneheart to their hearts content...have her able to speak much better than is described in the books...make her less of a zombie by keeping some of Catelyn's personality in the character...show LSH does not have to be book LSH...and they know what they're doing with that title...so they're either dicks or she's in...I'm going to assume dicks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding the title for the season finale being "Mother's Mercy" - as much as I want it to be about Stoneheart, I doubt that it is; surely this will be referring to Cersei's walk of shame?

Didn't the High Sparrow tell her in the last episode that if she pleads guilty she will be shown the "Mother's Mercy"?

yeah but that's too obvious no? I feel like they could have gone with any number of titles that refers to Cersei without choosing one that is 99.99999% a LSH reference

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mother Mercy - the ironic way of saying she's utterly without it, like calling a man "Happy Jack" who is renowned for being miserable. So not sure if it's a typo in the appendices - would have to ask George's editor or compare the later editions.



I can just see Thoros turning to the crowd, about to oversee the hanging of some unfortunate sod in the noose: "Shall we ask what Mother Mercy says?"



(*Crowd of outlaws roars with laughter*)



In any event, 'Mother Mercliess' is still clearly tied to 'Mother's Mercy' both in vocab overlap and as a concept - even as a polar opposite. Thematically, they would work extremely well as bookends: Cersei receiving the merciful judgement of The Seven and her humiliating 'reprieve'. Stoneheart passing judgement of the Red God, and utterly without it.


Edited by Damorian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×