why was Ladystoneheart cut out

[TheKitttenGuard]

9 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

He is a menace, but also a minor character who was allowed to follow the books version, dying andresurrecting (or whathever happened with him).

I can't agree with that. Despite of the fact Jaime and Brienne are different characters in terms of their characterisation, their story in the Riverlands could follow perfectly what happens in the books when they are there in the woods and in the siege, respectively; and LSH could have appeared because they were where they should be to her to appear in their stories. If they didn't want to bring LSH is because they don't want to adapt her story.

 

Gregor is part of a symbol involving Cersei. It is a visual presentation of menace, dread, and a constant presence of brutal violence.  He is rarely without Cersei and when alone is a symbolic representation of Cersei be it a brutally violent response to a petty slight or to prevent Tommen from the Sept. There is no story with Gregor without Cersei.

Brienne, Jamie, and LSH story in the book is Brienne finds Jamie to lead him to Stonehart. I do not see any difference in the story beside they are in the Riverlands.

Honestly without the context of character I do not see how LSH will not just be used as another "fanservice" . When a character is not in the show it is complained about.  When a character in but under different circumstance there will be a lot of complaints of how the context is all wrong.

I apologize for the Rant in your reply. 

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, TheKitttenGuard said:

Gregor is part of a symbol involving Cersei. It is a visual presentation of menace, dread, and a constant presence of brutal violence.  He is rarely without Cersei and when alone is a symbolic representation of Cersei be it a brutally violent response to a petty slight or to prevent Tommen from the Sept. There is no story with Gregor without Cersei.

Brienne, Jamie, and LSH story in the book is Brienne finds Jamie to lead him to Stonehart. I do not see any difference in the story beside they are in the Riverlands.

Honestly without the context of character I do not see how LSH will not just be used as another "fanservice" . When a character is not in the show it is complained about.  When a character in but under different circumstance there will be a lot of complaints of how the context is all wrong.

I apologize for the Rant in your reply. 

It's not that "when a character is not is complained". I respect your opinion that The Mountain is important to Cersei's story (I don't disagree on your explanations about him in your first paragraph) but I can't agree that he is more important than LSH's story, which is one, and big, on her own, and that involves two characters, one of them is as important or more than Cersei (Jaime) and that this encounter will surely be relevant for his development. 

As for fan service, I agree. It would be fan service. As The Mountain is too. And both are big shocking moments (the former has more impact for me, but I can understand people also like Gregor) and I just can't understand how they have avoided that.

[TheKitttenGuard]

12 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

It's not that "when a character is not is complained". I respect your opinion that The Mountain is important to Cersei's story (I don't disagree on your explanations about him in your first paragraph) but I can't agree that he is more important than LSH's story, which is one, and big, on her own, and that involves two characters, one of them is as important or more than Cersei (Jaime) and that this encounter will surely be relevant for his development. 

As for fan service, I agree. It would be fan service. As The Mountain is too. And both are big shocking moments (the former has more impact for me, but I can understand people also like Gregor) and I just can't understand how they have avoided that.

 They are not doing Gregor's story. Gregor is just a part of Cersei's overall storyline. He is a very powerful visual image.

LSH would only be used as part of Jaime overall story and they made major changes to it that made LSH expendable for them.

The only way I see LSH used is that Catelyn body got buried in alot of mud after being thrown in the River and be used in service to Arya storyline since she still in the Riverlands and we have Thoros, Beric,  and the Hound heading to her.

[Lord Lannister]

10 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I know it, but that doesn't mean they should do the same in the show.

Until Beric appeared, I thought it would make sense to follow the books' ritual, but after he appeared, Catelyn would have revived without him sacrificing for her. And it would still be logical, considering that in the show, Melisandre resurrected Jon Snow and she didn't gave him the kiss of life.

While logical isn't always a word I use to describe the show, I suppose such a thing would be consistent with some of it's more erratic storytelling. Though on the subject of storytelling, that would seem to be another mark against Lady Stoneheart. What's there for her to do? We already have renegade Brotherhood people going around hanging innocent people, Arya's already taken care of the important Freys. Beyond a shocking WTF moment for the two or three people who haven't heard of her, there's not much for her to contribute to the story now.

[Meera of Tarth]

9 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

While logical isn't always a word I use to describe the show, I suppose such a thing would be consistent with some of it's more erratic storytelling. Though on the subject of storytelling, that would seem to be another mark against Lady Stoneheart. What's there for her to do? We already have renegade Brotherhood people going around hanging innocent people, Arya's already taken care of the important Freys. Beyond a shocking WTF moment for the two or three people who haven't heard of her, there's not much for her to contribute to the story now.

As you said, her ship has sailed, it had to happen before 6.10 or in 6.10.

Unless she is hidden somewhere and they don't know what to write in season 6 and she magically appears, maybe hanging Brienne.

But I'm not confident of that.

[The Fattest Leech]

Sandor "rose from the dead"

Met up with the BWB

Sandor then went to the rivers edge and pissed in it. 

That was what D&D think of Lady Stoneheart. 

Now, D&D will split LSH's personality and some will be in the Hound, but most in Arya. 

The north doesn't remember and Arya served the Frey pie to Walder and that is the only Red Wedding retribution we will get. Fan service  

Another example at how the D's hate religion because they turned the disrespect of the old gods into shocking revenge. 

[Karmarni]

26 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Another example at how the D's hate religion because they turned the disrespect of the old gods into shocking revenge. 

That's the truth. I'm sick of the way they play their "shocks" because what with their advanced groundwork, they just aren't shocking. And they still try. Pathetic.

I think Arya did take over the LS role in the show attempt-at-a-story. And where IS Brienne? She may indeed meet Arya in the Riverlands as she meets LS in the books.

What's frustrating is that LS, Brienne and Jaime were left on such a hollow cliffhanger. What's to come? Who knows? But it sure didn't seem like Jaime would get out of that easily. So why does the show have him back in KL to witness Cersei crazies? It must be that Brienne is the one who owes a debt to Arya now. And, she does, in a way, because of what she did to Sandor. And she's now in Sansa's service, which will probably throw Arya and Sandor for a loop. Ensuing misunderstandings galore . . . for instance, "Well, then, if you're protecting her, why aren't you with her?"

[The Fattest Leech]

23 minutes ago, Karmarni said:

That's the truth. I'm sick of the way they play their "shocks" because what with their advanced groundwork, they just aren't shocking. And they still try. Pathetic.

I think Arya did take over the LS role in the show attempt-at-a-story. And where IS Brienne? She may indeed meet Arya in the Riverlands as she meets LS in the books.

What's frustrating is that LS, Brienne and Jaime were left on such a hollow cliffhanger. What's to come? Who knows? But it sure didn't seem like Jaime would get out of that easily. So why does the show have him back in KL to witness Cersei crazies? It must be that Brienne is the one who owes a debt to Arya now. And, she does, in a way, because of what she did to Sandor. And she's now in Sansa's service, which will probably throw Arya and Sandor for a loop. Ensuing misunderstandings galore . . . for instance, "Well, then, if you're protecting her, why aren't you with her?"

And Arya will ask Brienne about Sansa and Brienne will say she was with "a woman". 

I figured Arya would release uncle Edmure and I figured since Mel wasn't beheaded for unnecessary treason and is now wandering south, this will bring her into Arya's path of destruction and blah, blah, blah because I'm sure I'm repeating others by now. 

Wait, WTF is going on I the Riverlands? Must be a secret rave  Maybe that's why Jaime got the hell out of there? 

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And Arya will ask Brienne about Sansa and Brienne will say she was with "a woman". 

I figured Arya would release uncle Edmure and I figured since Mel wasn't beheaded for unnecessary treason and is now wandering south, this will bring her into Arya's path of destruction and blah, blah, blah because I'm sure I'm repeating others by now. 

Wait, WTF is going on I the Riverlands? Must be a secret rave  Maybe that's why Jaime got the hell out of there? 

I don't know. But I don't want anyone to take LSH's role.

Jaime returned to KG because he had to witness Cersei's first act of madness. Had mixed feeling with that, the best scene in two years of JaimeCersei but sad it was not with LSH

[Lord Krok]

On 4/13/2015 at 9:44 AM, Mister Stoneheart said:

I'm pretty sure she's cut. While I love the character (and the character of catelyn), it's evident that the writers weren't too enamoured of her character in the first place. Michelle Fairley is quite talented--but she had limited material to work with. What was one of the biggest characters in books 1-3 was wittled down to supporting--basically Robb's Dear ol Mum.

 

 

 

The lack of care to her living importance indicates they won't want to spend time on her post-mortem. Sad, really.

I know I'm in the minority, but I for one am pleased that the showrunners have spared us LSH.  A one-dimensional soulless revenge-driven zombie - what's not to love?  Arya and the Hound can do the same amount of carnage with much more personality.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Think it makes perfect sense to give most of the LSH plot to Arya, fits perfectly with her character and gives her FM training a purpose.

[Meera of Tarth]

2 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Think it makes perfect sense to give most of the LSH plot to Arya, fits perfectly with her character and gives her FM training a purpose.

I don't think they are going to give her plot to Arya because After killing Walder Frey Arya has mor eimportant things to do than to kill the other remaining unimportant Freys and didn't have that personal relationship with Brienne-

As for if it fits with her character, she has already taken revenge on the boss of the Freys from her list, which used to fit her character but not as a replacement of LSH.

Her training is about how to assassinate people, not to hang a whole family multiple times.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

14 hours ago, Lord Krok said:

I know I'm in the minority, but I for one am pleased that the showrunners have spared us LSH.  A one-dimensional soulless revenge-driven zombie - what's not to love?  Arya and the Hound can do the same amount of carnage with much more personality.

I agree.  

I honestly think that the Showrunners decided to Jettison LSH after their meeting with George after S2.  George likely told them that Brienne and Jaime both escape LSH alive (one of the big cliffhangers of ADWD, so I'm sure they asked about it).  With this piece of information, she becomes entirely replaceable.  Her reason for being is in three parts A) character development for Jaime and Brienne and B.) Conflict between Jaime and Brienne, which is cleanly resolved by them parting, both alive and with mutual and deepening respect/admiration and C.) Dead Freys and Lannisters.  

A and B were easily accomplished by inserting Brienne into the Riverlands plotline. 

C is accomplished by a combination of Arya / Brotherhood / Hound.  

[StepStark]

7 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I agree.  

I honestly think that the Showrunners decided to Jettison LSH after their meeting with George after S2.  George likely told them that Brienne and Jaime both escape LSH alive (one of the big cliffhangers of ADWD, so I'm sure they asked about it).  With this piece of information, she becomes entirely replaceable.  Her reason for being is in three parts A) character development for Jaime and Brienne and B.) Conflict between Jaime and Brienne, which is cleanly resolved by them parting, both alive and with mutual and deepening respect/admiration and C.) Dead Freys and Lannisters.  

A and B were easily accomplished by inserting Brienne into the Riverlands plotline. 

C is accomplished by a combination of Arya / Brotherhood / Hound.  

Sorry, but I have to say, your interpretation of George's mindset and method is probably as removed from the reality as possible. Only a terrible writer would "resolve" that cliffhanger that way and I don't think anyone can objectively claim that George is a terrible writer, or that there is any chance that LSH in the books was meant only for those reasons you stated.

On the other hand, D&D are terrible writers and they are also terrible at interpreting George, so it is entirely possible that they didn't see any use for LSH. Of course, that really wouldn't be their first nonsensical decision of that kind. After all, they obviously didn't see any use for Stannis so they removed him and gave what might be his plot to Jon, which all resulted in a ridiculous Northern mess in season six.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

50 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Sorry, but I have to say, your interpretation of George's mindset and method is probably as removed from the reality as possible. Only a terrible writer would "resolve" that cliffhanger that way

How do you mean?  You're saying if GRRM wires that Jaime and Brienne both survive that encounter, that's automatically "terrible writing?"  Why?  

I think there are Plenty of ways that could be the final outcome without it being terrible writing. Depends on HOW it happens.

50 minutes ago, StepStark said:

and I don't think anyone can objectively claim that George is a terrible writer, or that there is any chance that LSH in the books was meant only for those reasons you stated.

What else do you think she's for?  I suppose she may meet up with her kids but I rather hope not.  That would be awful.

50 minutes ago, StepStark said:

On the other hand, D&D are terrible writers and they are also terrible at interpreting George, so it is entirely possible that they didn't see any use for LSH. Of course, that really wouldn't be their first nonsensical decision of that kind. After all, they obviously didn't see any use for Stannis so they removed him and gave what might be his plot to Jon, which all resulted in a ridiculous Northern mess in season six.

K.  none of the hiccups in the overall excellent northern storyline this season had anything to do with Stannis being absent.  

What exactly would he have added?  

[OldGimletEye]

On 7/9/2016 at 1:51 PM, Karmarni said:

I think Arya did take over the LS role in the show attempt-at-a-story. And where IS Brienne? She may indeed meet Arya in the Riverlands as she meets LS in the books.

Yeah, Brienne runs into Arya, and Arya asks Brienne whether she serves the Lannisters. And what does Brienne do? She probably starts babbling about Davos and starts talking about the awesome justice she did on Stannis. Brienne might be in serious trouble.

[Ser Matt Dayne]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

Yeah, Brienne runs into Arya, and Arya asks Brienne whether she serves the Lannisters. And what does Brienne do? She probably starts babbling about Davos and starts talking about the awesome justice she did on Stannis. Brienne might be in serious trouble.

I can't see Arya hurting Brienne or going on her own LS-like path of destruction when her family is back in Winterfell.

Unless the show is setting her up to be the last tragic hero of the story that must redeem herself in the end, I don't believe the likes of Brienne and Pod will be in serious trouble. 

[OldGimletEye]

9 minutes ago, Ser Matt Dayne said:

I can't see Arya hurting Brienne or going on her own LS-like path of destruction when her family is back in Winterfell.

Unless the show is setting her up to be the last tragic hero of the story that must redeem herself in the end, I don't believe the likes of Brienne and Pod will be in serious trouble. 

I really don't think so either. I was joking a bit here. Show!Brienne is a self-righteous moron, unlike her book character.

[StepStark]

On 7/13/2016 at 1:55 AM, A spoon of knife and fork said:

How do you mean?  You're saying if GRRM wires that Jaime and Brienne both survive that encounter, that's automatically "terrible writing?"  Why?  

I think there are Plenty of ways that could be the final outcome without it being terrible writing. Depends on HOW it happens.

Writing a cliffhanger like that only to have everyone get out of it without serious consequences is poor storytelling. It's not storytelling actually, it's mindless manipulation. And luckily, George just doesn't do that. D&D do it all the time, but he doesn't.

On 7/13/2016 at 1:55 AM, A spoon of knife and fork said:

What else do you think she's for?  I suppose she may meet up with her kids but I rather hope not.  That would be awful.

I have no idea what she's for, but she is a major character, one of the most important characters in the entire series. Bringing her back just to play some role in other characters' storylines would again be a bad storytelling. Cat/LSH has an arc of her own. That arc is of course intertwined with Jaime's and Brienne's, just like it always has been, but it is an arc on its own. I'm positive she wasn't brought back just to serve anyone else's arc. And when her real arc is finally revealed in future books, I'll enjoy rereading this thread and all the stupid things posted in defense of D&D's "genius".

On 7/13/2016 at 1:55 AM, A spoon of knife and fork said:

K.  none of the hiccups in the overall excellent northern storyline this season had anything to do with Stannis being absent.  

What exactly would he have added?  

Not a single character in the entire Northern storyline acted logically, rationally and/or in character. For the entire run of the sixth season. Period. But the most ridiculous of them all was Davos. Why do you think it was like that? Was it maybe because certain Stannis Baratheon is missing from the plot?

Don't get me wrong, even if they didn't kill Stannis off, D&D would ruin the Northern storyline. That's their thing, they mishandle everything they touch. But removing Stannis and having Jon defeat the Boltons is definitely among the stupidest decisions they ever made.

[PetyrPunkinhead]

On 7/9/2016 at 0:17 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Sandor "rose from the dead"

Met up with the BWB

Sansor then went to the rivers edge and pissed in it. 

That was what D&D think of Lady Stoneheart. 

Now, D&D will split LSH's personality and some will be in the Hound, but most in Arya. 

The north doesn't remember and Arya served the Frey pie to Walder and that is the only Red Wedding retribution we will get. Fan service  

Another example at how the D's hate religion because they turned the disrespect of the old gods into shocking revenge. 

Damn. I never thought about it like that, but you're interpretation rings true. However, as such a fan of that reveal to Brienne in the book (and the subsequent scenes with the near execution) I'm still hoping that she and Pod drift down the river escping from the Lnnister/Frey aliance they run into the new leader of the BWB--Lady Stoneheart! Yes, others on here make a lot of sense with their theories that Arya & the Hound splitting up Stoneheart's story line, but I've got until next season to not be wrong with my theory/hope to see that moment on screen.