Orange is the New Black

[Jace, Extat]

The real question is if Alex gets thrown in isolation for 'her own protection'.

[eyenon15]

I assumed she didn't know the guy, why would she notice him if she's never seen him before.

And he might not neccesarily need fake identification.

What I did find funny was the guard was this superhot south American looking guy. And none of the inmates notice him??? Even Bennett got noticed as a cute guard, this guy was way more smoking than Bennett.

[RumHam]

I assumed she didn't know the guy, why would she notice him if she's never seen him before.

And he might not neccesarily need fake identification.

What I did find funny was the guard was this superhot south American looking guy. And none of the inmates notice him??? Even Bennett got noticed as a cute guard, this guy was way more smoking than Bennett.

I might be misremembering, but I think she saw him and said "_____, what are you doing here?" like she new him and then he said the place would hire anyone. I definitely got the impression she recognized him. I thought maybe he was the guy who shot her other co-worker in her earlier flashback, but I'm not sure. I assume he used a fake name to reduce his exposure.

[eyenon15]

Idk, my memory is hazy too.

I do seem to remember that "what are you doing here?" line

[Castel]

She knows who he is. I'm pretty sure he's the guy that killed the man that got her into the drug business in the hotel. Which makes it even weirder. If she testified against her boss she'd also testify on that murder, and he should be nowhere near there.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

I honestly found this season kind of exhausting to watch. It was just... relentlessly depressing. Some people had entire plot lines comprised entirely of misery and being shit on (hello Brook and Poussay! I hope next season is much better for you both!). And then the traumatic stuff. I almost stopped watching after Tiffany was raped twice in a ten minute span. It fits with the character they've created, and it's not like it's terribly unrealistic. But... it still sucks.

And I actually have a real problem with how they chose to portray the violence against Sophia. I really, really disliked that they made the decision to have Sophia's attackers be three random extras that we've barely ever seen before. And not only that, but even though the violence was ultimately rooted in the conflict between Gloria and Sophia, none of Sophia's attackers were even from Gloria's "family" - they were two random white girls and a black girl. I feel as if the show went out of its way to absolve Gloria specifically, and Aleida by extension who was much more actively culpable in stirring up the transphobic hate against Sophia, from direct responsibility for the attack. And now Sophia's "struggle" is a moral conflict about her sin of omission - her failure to actively stop Aleida (easily one of the WORST characters on the show by any measure) from stirring up hate against Sophia. So Sophia has to own the fact that she actually hurt Gloria (even if the injury was unintended), while Gloria only has to own that she didn't do enough to stop the attack against Sophia.

And I think that actually makes the violence... exploitative. None of the main characters has to really own it, but they still get to exploit it for dramatic purposes, and of course to further punish Sophia by torturing her with extended solitary - well that's just the dramatic cherry on top. And of course, for all we know, the next season is going to start ten seconds after this season ended, and maybe Sophia will be out in a day or two in tv-time. But even so, in real time, in the year until the next season comes out, every time I think of Sophia, I'm going to be thinking of that last shot of the door closing on her and her breaking down in solitary. And that's pretty shitty.

[karaddin]

^^^ Thanks Nestor, not a word I disagree with. The thing about the attackers being random extras is especially on point, so none of the characters we actually care about has to bear the burden of culpability for being a piece of shit.

I found the Tucky stuff incredibly hard to watch, but handled appropriately (I wasn't OK with the rape as revenge thing, but she put a stop to that and made the point explicitly that becoming rapists themselves isn't the answer) and she acted the hell out of it. The present day one as her eyes just go dead...Heartbreaking and accurate.

[john]

I dunno, I thought the show put plenty on Gloria. Accidentally pushing her into a wall is in no way worse than helping create the environment that led to Sophias attack. The reason the attackers were randoms might be to do with protecting the established characters (I thought this season was pretty bad for this, there is nobody remotely threatening left at Litchfield) but it was also to make clear that it was a hate crime, not anything to do with revenge.

[awesome possum]

I thought it made sense for nobodies to be the perpetrators for several reasons.

It helps remind the audience that there are more inmates than just the main characters that the show focuses on.

Who among the regular cast would have done it? Daya's horrible bitch of a mother? She's a coward who talks and talks and talks and talks but little else (and yeah, she and Healy are tied in my book for absolute worst). Gloria? That's not really her, she seems the type who, if she has a beef, is going to take it out one on one. Crazy Mexican woman would have seemed a possibility in season 1, but she came across as far less crazy this season. Taystee's group wouldn't make sense, nor any of the other groups. It would have been ridiculous to see Flaca and Maritza trying to terrorize Sophia, so really, non-regular cast members make the most amount of sense.

I also don't think the show was somehow trying to absolve Daya's mom (I can't stand her so much I don't even care enough to learn her name), it clearly showed that she was the instigator who spread the rumors and was a complete and utter asshole about it - but she's a complete and utter asshole about 98.9% of the time.

And the storyline is clearly not even close to over.

[litechick]

Regarding the Sophia storyline I agree with AP and John--it made sense to use non-POV characters/no one is threatening anymore. If you want gray characters (and they do) having a character engage in prejudiced hate bullying and violence pushes them into the black. Presumably the next season will rely heavily on politics.

It's hard to ignore the invitation to explore the nuances of the trans female role and I'm not even sure that it should be ignored. The issues need to be discussed even if it is inevitable that some will consider that exploration fundamentally hostile and non-supportive/evil.

If you transition to womanhood, does that erase your previous experience as a male? Some would say that having grown as a male in a male-centric world, a trans woman has an unfair advantage. I don't agree with that but I can't dismiss the argument entirely.

In the context of the show, these are my observations:

• Sophia experiences less prejudice and bullying than I would expect. It took three seasons before we really saw the hostility that I would have expected from day 1.
  
• Sophia is not just a woman but a superior woman, one who understands female biology better, one who has superior skills and drive to be beautiful. Other characters express this "she has a super perky vag (I designed it myself); you have a better rack than me (her wife); a real woman should give no fucks about her appearance in prison/have dark circles under her eyes."
  
• There is the fundamental question of whether getting it naturally is inferior to having to fight for it. Who the hell knows? I certainly don't. The tone is that having had to fight for womanhood, Sophia is more noble than all these cis serfs who don't even know where their urethra is.
  
• Sophia is feminine and tough (both good things.) This makes it hard for me to see her as a victim but if she opened a can of whoop ass on her attackers it would only lend credence to the POV that she has an unfair advantage.
  
• If anything, I think it is good that Sophia betrays her own prejudices that the latino boy is a bad influence, etc because it makes her more human/less superhuman. The writers went out of their way to make sure it was an even standoff between her and Gloria but ultimately I figure that the person with the car gets to choose. The idea that Gloria should hold a grudge 'you are denying me the right to see my child!' is silly. I also thought the 'someone cut herself in the kitchen, you need to give that greater priority to seeing your son' was also silly. The department head is not a nurse and the COs should handle the situation without her.
  
• Gender roles. The writers very deliberately gave us a view of Sophia's ideal parenthood. She wanted to teach her son to shave, change a tire, manipulate girls with poor self-esteem. They didn't portray her as someone who wanted to teach her son to use product in his hair and see a girl as an equal person. What does that mean? I really don't know.
  

Daya drives me up the wall but this post is too long already.

Piper sucks but the full depth and scope of her suckiness deserves more attention. Alex doesn't deserve to die but if she did we could at least get off the 'you betrayed me!' 'No, you betrayed me!' 'I love you!' 'I am really angry at you!' carousel.

The trouble with streaming is that we binge and fail to properly appreciate each episode. There were a couple of great speeches which have been lost in the greater plot arc and that's a shame. Hopefully once we have indulged in the binge we can go back and talk about each episode in depth as it deserves.

Based on this season, if I had to choose one character I am most in sympathy with it would be Red. (Do I mean that? I'm not sure. I guess that's what makes it a good show.)

[karaddin]

If you want to know the answer to your question, I could give you an in depth explanation of what minor advantages you get from being socialised male and transitioning as an adult, because I've lived it, but given the tone of your post explaining the difficulties of showing the difficulties of trans experience to me I don't think you are particularly interested in listening.

We already had two named characters engage in "prejudiced hate bullying" - it's Almeida and Gloria. They don't escalate to violence, but they still engaged in transphobia and started the bullying campaign. It's a complete cop out to use random characters instead of challenging people by using characters that they cared about. It's not fucking random no names that bully us in real life, it's real people - if you want to show that and have it be real, earn it by using real characters.

PS - No you don't get an unfair advantage in life from growing up socialised and being treated as a male, you get a truckload of mental health issues that you need to deal with, along with a mountain of medical expenses and pain required to get a body you are remotely happy with. You may get some small advantages in having an established career, but that is well and truly stripped away post transition when you can look forward to a hell of a lot of difficulty getting work if it's known you are trans as evidenced by the unemployment rates far above the general population despite a higher education level than the general population. You may have a height advantage from growing up with testosterone, but muscle mass is lost once you have been on hormones for a period of time. Sophia was not portrayed as being capable of beating any of the 3 that beat her up even had it been one on one, the only violence she engaged in was pushing Gloria from behind. Being trans gives you unique insight into gender and society, but it sure as fuck does not make life easier and it's fucking offensive to even suggest that. I'll probably get told I'm engaging in buzz words again though!

[eyenon15]

I've always appreciated them not making Sophia perfect ever since season 1.

A lot of shows would go the safe route and just make her be perfectly moral at all times and be 10 times smarter than everyone around her because naturally being part of a disadvantaged group automatically makes you better and smarter than everyone around you.

[john]

I suppose they could have had the other two main latino girls do the attacking - the one that lived in a greyhound bus for a year and the one that can't see her baby anymore - but that would've diluted the message which was, as far as I was concerned, that hate lies just beneath the surface and it only takes two days or so of Sophia being unpopular for that to escalate in such a horrific way. Otherwise the message is just that it's bad to be on the wrong side of a prison gang, which isn't much of a message.

And it goes along with the theme of the series which was about the consequences of power imblances and the worth of the specific and personal as opposed to the general faceless void. That was in every story from the prison takeover to Piper's panty business.

However, I definitely do think there's something in the idea of the writers not wanting to create problems for themselves by involving some main characters more directly in the attack, which is a shame but it wasn't too problematic a choice, imo

[eyenon15]

None of the remaining main characters have been established as so gangster that they go attacking people when they have disagreements.

Vee was like that, I supposed Red could get vicious like that under the right circumstances but none of the others have really established a pattern of handing out beat downs.

[karaddin]

You'll have to forgive me if I'm a little sick of people acting like the life experiences of me and women like me are a question fit for resolution via academic debate, rather than by simply asking us. Particularly when I was already in the thread and she was point blank disagreeing with me on other things so it's not like she didn't know I was here, even if she doesn't necessarily agree with the proposition she felt necessary to raise.

As for the bad advice, of course trans women can internalise sexism, so do cis women. We live in a sexist society, it happens. And trans women that have kids before transition get used to a certain relationship with that kid, and are hyper aware that they are taking the father away from their child, it's frequently a source of massive guilt that is exacerbated by a society that says they should feel guilty. She spent 10 years of her son's life thinking she would play a certain role in it and now she's playing basically no role while a man takes the role she expected, of course she's upset about the loss of that dynamic. And as a trans woman she knows gender roles are bs, she knows those skills so of course she expects to teach him them.

[Teng Ai Hui]

I guess I'm the only one who actually liked the Norma love cult. Yes, they were annoying after awhile. But, wasn't that the point?

The group worked well as a counterpoint for other storylines: the flashbacks for both Norma and Leanne, the relationship between Red and Norma, and the new relationship between Poussey and Soso.

Several people mentioned at the beginning of the thread that the connective theme of the season (in lieu of a main villain) was change. I thought it was love and the search thereof, and the Norma love cult was the cornerstone of that motif.

Also, I'm anxious for the next season to see Watson's (the track runner with strict Muslim parents) reactions within the black clique as it becomes the prison's melting pot.

There was a scene in the finale that made no sense to me. Can someone help me figure it out?

A young adult female put something in the microwave. A fuse is blown. She fiddles with the plug-in and then gives herself a nasty electrical shock. Black Screen. She wakes up to an EMT saying that he had to use a defibrillator to restart her heart. Did that EMT see evidence of illegal drugs causing the DEA to raid Cesar's apartment?

[HexMachina]

I guess I'm the only one who actually liked the Norma love cult. Yes, they were annoying after awhile. But, wasn't that the point?

The group worked well as a counterpoint for other storylines: the flashbacks for both Norma and Leanne, the relationship between Red and Norma, and the new relationship between Poussey and Soso.

Several people mentioned at the beginning of the thread that the connective theme of the season (in lieu of a main villain) was change. I thought it was love and the search thereof, and the Norma love cult was the cornerstone of that motif.

Also, I'm anxious for the next season to see Watson's (the track runner with strict Muslim parents) reactions within the black clique as it becomes the prison's melting pot.

There was a scene in the finale that made no sense to me. Can someone help me figure it out?

A young adult female put something in the microwave. A fuse is blown. She fiddles with the plug-in and then gives herself a nasty electrical shock. Black Screen. She wakes up to an EMT saying that he had to use a defibrillator to restart her heart. Did that EMT see evidence of illegal drugs causing the DEA to raid Cesar's apartment?

Wasn't that scene a flashback? That kind of confused me too

[Teng Ai Hui]

I rewatched that scene. You're right, Helena. It's definitely a flashback. But, whose? The EMT calls the young woman Ms. Black. I looked at the list of characters on Wikipedia. Big Boo's family is Black, so it must be her. Yet, I'm still confused because the electrocuted girl looked nothing like present-day Big Boo or the young teenaged Big Boo who had the school picture day argument with her mom.

[HexMachina]

I rewatched that scene. You're right, Helena. It's definitely a flashback. But, whose? The EMT calls the young woman Ms. Black. I looked at the list of characters on Wikipedia. Big Boo's family is Black, so it must be her. Yet, I'm still confused because the electrocuted girl looked nothing like present-day Big Boo or the young teenaged Big Boo who had the school picture day argument with her mom.

You know I thought she looked like, uh...what's she called...the one who is in Ms. Rosa's room, who had the heart attack. Looked like a younger version of her. But it just seemed so out of place, like what? Why is this scene here? :p

ETA: DiMarco is her name.

Just rewatched that scene and it would definitely suggest BigBoo, since it comes just after she sees Mariza meet the Donut guy.

[john]

@John,

I agree that the list of threatening characters is looking pretty empty, which is kind of impressive if you think about how threatening some of the characters were at the start.

However, I'd still say that Almeida (that's Daya's mother right?) and Leanne are crazy unpredictable. They, along with Healy, are some of the few in prison who tend to think their maliciousness is justified. I hope season 4 is the end for Healy.

As for next season, I'm hoping that Piper becomes the villain. And there's a new inmate who she goes head to head with.

Yeah, it's not just the lack of threatening characters either. There's also a much less threatening tone/atmosphere. In the very first episode Piper arrived and was told she needed to only hang around the white girls. Then Red started starving her to death while nobody was prepared to do anything about it. These days you'd assume the guards would immediately step in in that kind of situation. It kind of seems more like a leisure camp than a prison now.