Orange is the New Black

[DunderMifflin]

The donut/Tucky story seems to be setting up for a -people return to their abusers for many other reasons than because they were scared to leave- tale.

It's pretty obvious he's gonna rape her again at some point, or at least try to.

I'll be shocked if something of that variety doesn't happen.

[First of My Name]

I stayed away from this thread until now to avoid any spoilers, turns out they're all tagged anyway. In any case I just fnished, and man this was one excellent season, with some of the show's most powerful scenes yet. The last three episodes in particular were very powerful.

Spoiler

I do wonder why they chose Daya as the one to pick up the gun, there are tons of characters who have more reason to hate the guards than her, and she was pretty inconsequential this season. Fortunately it still worked for me.

I really like what they did with Healy, Lolly, and many others this season, including (weird as it may sound) Poussey. Her death was heartbreaking but it elevated the season to another level.

So, probably the best season yet for me.

ETA: I think the scene with

Spoiler

Morella and Vinnie verbally getting it on during visitation

Might be the hardest this show has made me laugh.
Leanne and Angie's final conversation in the season was also hilarious.

[PetyrPunkinhead]

I like this conversation going on in here about Coates/Donuts. I definitely think "humanized" is a good word. I don't think he's a rapist though. I do think he raped Dogget. However, I believe he didn't truly realize that fact until she confronted him with that this season. He feels shame and remorse for what he did and is attempting to make amends. (That scene with him and Byaley at lunch was so good!) A rapist wouldn't do any of those things with any sincerity. 

15 hours ago, First of My Name said:

I stayed away from this thread until now to avoid any spoilers, turns out they're all tagged anyway. In any case I just fnished, and man this was one excellent season, with some of the show's most powerful scenes yet. The last three episodes in particular were very powerful.

  Reveal hidden contents

I do wonder why they chose Daya as the one to pick up the gun, there are tons of characters who have more reason to hate the guards than her, and she was pretty inconsequential this season. Fortunately it still worked for me.

I really like what they did with Healy, Lolly, and many others this season, including (weird as it may sound) Poussey. Her death was heartbreaking but it elevated the season to another level.

So, probably the best season yet for me.

ETA: I think the scene with

  Reveal hidden contents

Morella and Vinnie verbally getting it on during visitation

Might be the hardest this show has made me laugh.
Leanne and Angie's final conversation in the season was also hilarious.

I think they chose Daya because she kind of has the most to lose out of all the "main" inmate characters we're following. It's a very dramatic moment because of all the foreshadowing they laid down with her mom being released. If this were a typical network show I think S5E1 would be one of the highest rated of the series. 

And you're so right about the scene with Morella and Vinny during visitation!

[First of My Name]

3 hours ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

I like this conversation going on in here about Coates/Donuts. I definitely think "humanized" is a good word. I don't think he's a rapist though. I do think he raped Dogget. However, I believe he didn't truly realize that fact until she confronted him with that this season. He feels shame and remorse for what he did and is attempting to make amends. (That scene with him and Byaley at lunch was so good!) A rapist wouldn't do any of those things with any sincerity. 

I think they chose Daya because she kind of has the most to lose out of all the "main" inmate characters we're following. It's a very dramatic moment because of all the foreshadowing they laid down with her mom being released. If this were a typical network show I think S5E1 would be one of the highest rated of the series. 

And you're so right about the scene with Morella and Vinny during visitation!

I agree about the humanization, but you're going to have to explain to me how you can rape someone and not be a rapist. I believe that he regrets it, but that changes nothing.about the fact that he did rape her.
If you have sex with someone without their consent, regardless of circumstance or hindsight emotions, you are a rapist.

Yeah, possibly. For story reasons a choice like Taystee or Ramos would have more sense though.

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, First of My Name said:

I agree about the humanization, but you're going to have to explain to me how you can rape someone and not be a rapist. I believe that he regrets it, but that changes nothing.about the fact that he did rape her.
If you have sex with someone without their consent, regardless of circumstance or hindsight emotions, you are a rapist.

Yeah, possibly. For story reasons a choice like Taystee or Ramos would have more sense though.

They did at least have Ramos be the one to push Humps and knock the gun out of his hand. There are various inmates I would have thought better choices for picking up the gun (Maria, Taystee, Blanca, Watson) but I assume Dayanara was chosen to set up her story for next season.

[First of My Name]

24 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

They did at least have Ramos be the one to push Humps and knock the gun out of his hand. There are various inmates I would have thought better choices for picking up the gun (Maria, Taystee, Blanca, Watson) but I assume Dayanara was chosen to set up her story for next season.

Just talked about this with my sister and she suggested they chose Daya because the guards never really harmed her, and so we wouldn't be sure if she was going to shoot or not. Whereas had it been Taystee, Ruiz or one of the Nazis there wouldn't really have been much doubt about how this would turn out. Sounds plausible to me.

But now that both her mother and baby are out of the picture (for now, at least) she doesn't really have a storyline, so yeah, that might be the main reason for involving her in this, to set her up for season 5.
 

[HexMachina]

21 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

I'm kind of surprised how short Piper's stint as the Godfather of Lichfield was. Given the trajectory of her character in the past seasons and the fact that they sent out the photo of the branding scene in one of the earliest previews, I really thought that was going to escalate things and make her break badder.

Im glad they didnt because that was probably the worst and most cringey part of season 3. 

Quick question, is that Miss Claudette that Nikki sees in Max?

[First of My Name]

4 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Im glad they didnt because that was probably the worst and most cringey part of season 3. 

Quick question, is that Miss Claudette that Nikki sees in Max?

It looked like her, but according to IMDB it wasn't her. (To be fair, that site can be edited by anyone with an account, so might not mean much).

[DunderMifflin]

7 hours ago, First of My Name said:

Just talked about this with my sister and she suggested they chose Daya because the guards never really harmed her, and so we wouldn't be sure if she was going to shoot or not. Whereas had it been Taystee, Ruiz or one of the Nazis there wouldn't really have been much doubt about how this would turn out. Sounds plausible to me.

But now that both her mother and baby are out of the picture (for now, at least) she doesn't really have a storyline, so yeah, that might be the main reason for involving her in this, to set her up for season 5.
 

I think it's more about Dayas relatively innocent personality being corrupted. Foreshadowed when Dayas mom tells Gloria to keep her away from that certain element. She's younger than most of the other characters so it's a critical time to be exposed to such elements.

She really has as many reasons as most anyone else to want to kill a guard.

Taystee would also have been interesting in that situation as well, under normal circumstances I could never picture her doing it but she was all angry about Poussey and she pretty much started the riot on her own.

 

[First of My Name]

2 hours ago, DunderMifflin said:

I think it's more about Dayas relatively innocent personality being corrupted. Foreshadowed when Dayas mom tells Gloria to keep her away from that certain element. She's younger than most of the other characters so it's a critical time to be exposed to such elements.

She really has as many reasons as most anyone else to want to kill a guard.

Taystee would also have been interesting in that situation as well, under normal circumstances I could never picture her doing it but she was all angry about Poussey and she pretty much started the riot on her own.

 

Yeah, that makes sense too. Phrased like that at least she sort of had an arc this season.

I don't think she had as many reasons to kill though. Poussey's close friends and inmates like Ramos or Blanca, who suffered from the abuse of power directly, had more reason.

Agreed, that's why I think Taystee would have been interesting, but her killing a guard would have fundamentally changed her character, so I can also see why they didn't go that way.

 

[DunderMifflin]

Daya got knocked up and abandoned by a guard though 

[Commodore]

they cranked up the sadism/cynicism to a level that was unrealistic and unpleasant to watch

[PetyrPunkinhead]

17 hours ago, First of My Name said:

I agree about the humanization, but you're going to have to explain to me how you can rape someone and not be a rapist. I believe that he regrets it, but that changes nothing.about the fact that he did rape her.
If you have sex with someone without their consent, regardless of circumstance or hindsight emotions, you are a rapist . . .

I guess what I mean by that with Donuts is he raped Dogget, but I'm putting a distinction between that and someone who intentionally commits rape or habitually intentionally commits rape. I'd apply the same line of logic to "Guy A"  who kills someone accidentally in a car accident versus " Guy B" who shoots multiple people in cold blood over (insert a self serving motive here). Both Guys have technically killed someone but I'd only label Guy B a murderer. Another example would be the label of criminal. If you go 8 miles over the speed limit on the interstate even once then you're technically a criminal just like the guy who robbed six liquor stores is a criminal. Personally I wouldn't consider someone who goes 8 mph over the speed limit a criminal though.

[Castel]

10 minutes ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

I guess what I mean by that with Donuts is he raped Dogget, but I'm putting a distinction between that and someone who intentionally commits rape or habitually intentionally commits rape. I'd apply the same line of logic to "Guy A"  who kills someone accidentally in a car accident versus " Guy B" who shoots multiple people in cold blood over (insert a self serving motive here). Both Guys have technically killed someone but I'd only label Guy B a murderer. Another example would be the label of criminal. If you go 8 miles over the speed limit on the interstate even once then you're technically a criminal just like the guy who robbed six liquor stores is a criminal. Personally I wouldn't consider someone who goes 8 mph over the speed limit a criminal though.

The problem with your example is that killing isn't murder. Rape though, is rape.What Donuts did was a willful act with no reasonable justification or excuse. 

 

 A better comparison is someone who poisons a person (without extenuating circumstances) and a serial killer. Now, it becomes much harder to consider them not a murderer no? 

 

We're getting into dark waters here. 

 

So I'll just say: it seems to me that this all goes back to the same thing that makes people call the arc a "redemption" arc. TV, for understandable reasons, has so cast rapists as sadistic and - a bit- inhuman monsters , that now, when you remove that, it's almost like the "rapist" tag is so stuck unto it that it has to go as well. It doesn't. "Rapist" doesn't stand in for "irredeemable monster" or "lazy way to completely rob a character of sympathy", it stands for rapist. 

 

TBH, I don't even know how to take this . Does this show that the media is right to be so direct  about it? Or did they create this outcome?

 

[DunderMifflin]

1 hour ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Yeah but that had nothing to do with his capacity as a CO. Any guy can knock a girl up and then bail. The rage that built up and ultimately boiled over in the final episode came from the systematic abuses that occurred over the course of the season as a result of the COs being in a position of complete power over the inmates, and there being no realistic form of redress for corruption or abuses of that power.

Somehow I think in the chaos of a prison riot and a gun falling at her feet that she might just equate "guard" with the trauma of her pregnancy and being abandoned. What that guard did to Daya was clear and certified abuse. Just the power imbalance alone qualifies as rape to a lot of people, then he further abuses his position over her by just leaving town.

During chaotic situations like that it's not really a time people get calm and rational enough to think why exactly they are doing something and for what reason. It's a time where deep rage from issues long past can surface.

[HexMachina]

We hashed out the whole Daya-Bennet thing in the last thread I think and yeah it's absolutely a case of rape because Bennet had all the power/control there, and Daya could not really refuse him if he insisted. There are several conversations between them in Season 2 I think which really draw attention to this

[Castel]

Even before that she quite clearly comes to have issues with the situation when Bennett sends Ramos to the SHu, but that doesn't mean that she thought that she was raped. 

[DunderMifflin]

2 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

 

And more important to our discussion here, which is about Daya's motivation for grabbing the gun, do you think that she ever felt like Bennett raped her? Did she feel violated by what he It seems to me that most of her hurt and frustration with Bennett stems from her sense of betrayal over him leaving her in a shitty situation.

Being angry and frustrated and backed by an angry mob is enough to pick up the gun.

I'm just trying to establish Daya had plenty of motivation to hate the guards. "Fucking COs, youre all peices of shit" is what she says as she points the gun.

Even then I think what happened to her is comparable to what we've seen others go through. 

Yes there's a sense of betrayal from a guy she liked, maybe even loved but it's way more than just a bitter ex lover situation. There's was a pregnancy and baby involved, I'm not even really clear where the baby is now, state custody is the last we are told if I'm not mistaken. All that is still fresh with her, in this season remember she doesn't get help from COs when she's standing there with blood coming out of her.

[First of My Name]

12 hours ago, DunderMifflin said:

Daya got knocked up and abandoned by a guard though 

And the guard in question doesn't even work at Litchfield anymore. Plenty of inamates whose grievances are directed against the current batch of guards.

8 hours ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

I guess what I mean by that with Donuts is he raped Dogget, but I'm putting a distinction between that and someone who intentionally commits rape or habitually intentionally commits rape. I'd apply the same line of logic to "Guy A"  who kills someone accidentally in a car accident versus " Guy B" who shoots multiple people in cold blood over (insert a self serving motive here). Both Guys have technically killed someone but I'd only label Guy B a murderer. Another example would be the label of criminal. If you go 8 miles over the speed limit on the interstate even once then you're technically a criminal just like the guy who robbed six liquor stores is a criminal. Personally I wouldn't consider someone who goes 8 mph over the speed limit a criminal though.

I'm with Castel here. Not every death is a murder, but every rape is a rape. Donuts raped Dogett, and by definition is a rapist. Is he a better person than other rapists, than people like Mendez? Probably, but that doesn't make him any less of a rapist.

[princess_snow]

On ‎23‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 6:02 AM, Dr. Pepper said:

Yeah, Coates at the end was still the same rapist, only a more manipulative one.  As Big Boo stated, he'll always be a rapist.  Coates is sort of the face that represents rape culture.  He thinks what he did was fine because he said I love you.  He's not upset to realize he completely violated another person or that he committed a heinous crime.  He's bummed that Tiffany is ignoring him.  He probably thought that bullshit there at the end where he's saying he's working so hard to hold himself back was somehow romantic or an indication that he's a changed man.  But he's not.  He's still a rapist.  

God yes ! Really well said.