Orange is the New Black

[karaddin]

This doesn't add to the discussion in any way whatsoever.

Well if you are adjudicating on what is adding to the discussion, could you please explain what stuff like the following question add to the discussion?

If you transition to womanhood, does that erase your previous experience as a male? Some would say that having grown as a male in a male-centric world, a trans woman has an unfair advantage. I don't agree with that but I can't dismiss the argument entirely.

Because from where I'm sitting, suggesting that one of the most marginalised groups on the planet with disproportionately high rates of being victims of abuse, domestic violence, rape, homelessness, unemployment, assault and murder get an "unfair advantage" as an argument that can't be entirely dismissed, even if the person doesn't entirely agree with it, is pretty fucking offensive. To do it in a thread where there is a member of that group and you are responding, disagreeing no less, with said member of that group who can give an answer on whether she has received any advantage, let alone an unfair one, and thus give insight into this supposedly undissmissable argument, yet ignore her presence completely and act like it's a question that can be explored as a thought experiment is more offensive and rude. The discussion in question is that of a tv show obviously, and that tv show in no way at any point raises the argument that trans women have an unfair advantage, and the character arc in question ends with the character being locked up in solitary confinement - an outcome the show treats as tantamount to torture - for her own protection, which is pretty definitively a disadvantage. The only way you could even try and shoe horn in that the show raises this is that the character is taller than other characters, yet is shown to be no more physically capable than anyone else in the show, and in fact is the victim of a physical assault in the plot under discussion, and pretty clearly was not very capable at fighting despite her height, also suggesting that she was not possessing an unfair advantage. The only way the show suggests she does is through the dialogue of bigots in the prison which is presented by the show as hate speech, and later shown to be false in the assault.

So I really fail to see how that "adds to the discussion", but it sure as fuck offends members of the group in question which is why the post you were responding to was posted.

Obviously there is room for disagreement over whether the use of random characters for the assault was a wise narrative choice or not, but the rest of the post addressing Sophia added nothing tot he discussion and was inflammatory, including some stuff about trans women that is very stereotyped and also offensive. For example

a real woman should give no fucks about her appearance in prison/have dark circles under her eyes

was in the show as the start of the transphobic hate speech against Sophia, not a fucking demonstration of her being a fucking superior woman. It's a trope that trans women embody superficial artificial femininity and that's what that comment was riffing on, and the comment inherently labels her as not a real woman - to take it the way the poster did is at best completely missing the point of what was going on there.

[Jace, Extat]

Is Pensatucky's first name Dogget?

I was probably sloshed when that was revealed, but why did they start calling her that?

[Castel]

I suppose they could have had the other two main latino girls do the attacking - the one that lived in a greyhound bus for a year and the one that can't see her baby anymore - but that would've diluted the message which was, as far as I was concerned, that hate lies just beneath the surface and it only takes two days or so of Sophia being unpopular for that to escalate in such a horrific way. Otherwise the message is just that it's bad to be on the wrong side of a prison gang, which isn't much of a message.

And it goes along with the theme of the series which was about the consequences of power imblances and the worth of the specific and personal as opposed to the general faceless void. That was in every story from the prison takeover to Piper's panty business.

However, I definitely do think there's something in the idea of the writers not wanting to create problems for themselves by involving some main characters more directly in the attack, which is a shame but it wasn't too problematic a choice, imo

Or they could have minimized the direct attack and had more transphobic bullying that wasn't quite as obvious.I don't like the binary that it had to be someone we knew or the whole thing was exploitative.

But then, that might have benefited from laying some bricks beforehand, which they didn't seem to do.

[Nictarion]

Is Pensatucky's first name Dogget?

I was probably sloshed when that was revealed, but why did they start calling her that?

Tiffany Doggett is her real name.

[eyenon15]

&Pensatucky is where she's from

[HexMachina]

As much as I'm sure that members of the trans community have a great deal more insight into Sophia's situation, it is not the be all and end all. As far as I'm aware, none of the posters in this thread have spent time in prison.

if litechick was making some observations about the representation of a trans woman in a t.v. show set in prison, then she's far from generalising. If you think her saying ''it's an argument that can't be entirely dismissed' is wrong or offensive, then perhaps you should engage with the points she actually makes in regard to that, since she's obviously talking in the context of the show.

For instance, the fact that Sophia actually understands her body more than the other inmates arguably makes her superior - particularly her portrayal as a teacher. Although I think the situation was as much a result of poor education for the lower class as it was that being trans gave her more knowledge on the subject.

Think the lack of Pornstache is the big thing there. The guards were noticeably absent this season, apart from Luschek almost none of them interact with inmates. And Luschek tends to be pretty decent to the inmates (well, informal) apart from 1. dobbing Nicky in, and 2. telling Piper off, and the latter was completely justified imo.

I think they'll struggle next season to make it threatening. All of the sets and actors are quite familiar to us now, so it's only by introducing something new to us that they'll be able to create tension. Or maybe make Caputo go power-crazy. That would be awesome.

Well they did have the mass walkout of all of the (semi-) competent guards at the end of the season.

And I completely agree that the prison as a whole feels less hostile. Back in Season 1 you had these moments of seemingly random senseless aggression (Taystee and Flacca fighting over Taystee's ice cream "It was a King Cone!", Yoga Jones and Watson's late night stand off) the vindictiveness of Red starving out anyone who displeased her, corrupt Pornstache and his drug dealing, Tiffany and the meth heads being extremely pissy with everyone and striking back at Piper/Alex, Healy's General dickishness (which seems to be very toned down since then) the more prevalent threat of SHU/max. The prison has just become much less hostile. I don't know if that is intentional, to demonstrate the change after Fig has been kicked to the kerb, but it feels weird. You can almost forget you are watching a prison drama.

[john]

Or they could have minimized the direct attack and had more transphobic bullying that wasn't quite as obvious.I don't like the binary that it had to be someone we knew or the whole thing was exploitative.

But then, that might have benefited from laying some bricks beforehand, which they didn't seem to do.

Yes, actually, that probably would have been more effective. But, as you say, they'd have to lay the groundwork for that which I suppose would've been to the detriment of other storylines. I found that plotline pretty strong as it was but it definitely lacked some nuance compared to some of the plots more in the foreground.

[karaddin]

As much as I'm sure that members of the trans community have a great deal more insight into Sophia's situation, it is not the be all and end all. As far as I'm aware, none of the posters in this thread have spent time in prison.

if litechick was making some observations about the representation of a trans woman in a t.v. show set in prison, then she's far from generalising. If you think her saying ''it's an argument that can't be entirely dismissed' is wrong or offensive, then perhaps you should engage with the points she actually makes in regard to that, since she's obviously talking in the context of the show.

For instance, the fact that Sophia actually understands her body more than the other inmates arguably makes her superior - particularly her portrayal as a teacher. Although I think the situation was as much a result of poor education for the lower class as it was that being trans gave her more knowledge on the subject.

I did engage with one of the points and pointed out how it was not only wrong but completely missing the point of the scene in question? It's pointless doing it in full and I'm sick as fuck of people acting like this is a matter that is open to your debate, it's not. The question wasn't one specifically of Sophia, it was phrased as trans women generally, and I cited both my personal experience and referred to the statistics which show we do not have any kind of advantage, but instead very colossal disadvantage. To posit otherwise as some kind of thought bubble isn't something I'm interested in engaging with.

But to play your stupid game, Sophia's understanding of her body does not show she is "superior", it was intended as a comedic side plot showing the lack of education amongst the lower class inmates. The only way I think you can come out of the show feeling that that bullet list of ways that Sophia is "superior" is actually what the show was doing with all of that is if you are going in with a bias against the character in the first place and interpreting things to fit that view. But yes, when you have surgery it is pointed out to you where what bit of anatomy is where, so technically she does have that knowledge because she is trans, but if you think having to spend a fuckload of money and pain and time just to get your body right is an unfair advantage because it gives you basic anatomical knowledge that uneducated people may lack is an unfair advantage, I really have nothing civil to say to you. I've spent 6 months in pain and suffering from having surgery on top of having to spend an awful lot of money on surgery and an awful lot more since then, along with being unable to work for that entire time. There is no fucking advantage in that.

Do you think Piper doesn't know the anatomy of a vagina? Or even Alex? Who was depicted as being poor, but sent to a better school. It's a demonstration of the way that education utterly fails the poorest, particularly along racial lines.

[litechick]

muscle mass is lost once you have been on hormones for a period of time.

This is helpful for me to know although it is depressing to think of estrogen as a muscle melter. I would prefer to believe that people who eschew masculinity avoid strength training and that is the reason for decreased muscle mass--still a damn shame but it lacks the sense of helplessness which the biological explanation creates.

Being trans gives you unique insight into gender and society, but it sure as fuck does not make life easier and it's fucking offensive to even suggest that.

I hope this is the source of our miscommunication. I never meant to imply that life as a whole is easier for trans people, that would be ludicrous. I think it is possible that someone who was nurtured as a male and lived as one through to adulthood has some advantages which do not outweigh the struggles. Case in point, Pennsatucky's mom specifically trained her to be a rape victim from the very moment that the first drop of blood appeared in her underwear.

I think that most people lack the self awareness to pinpoint exactly what their own advantages are. Piper is not blind to her privilege but she can't see it clearly either. I love that bit with everyone gathered around while Piper explains that she did not grow up in a mansion, just a nice house with 4-5 bathrooms.

If they were going to use named characters for the beating I could see Flocka (? fake acid girl) and Cindy. Despite the conversion to Judaism arc I feel that both of them have no redeeming qualities of character (as presented so far.) Leanne also has no redeeming qualities but she's got her own intimidation arc going with Soso. Aleida is a shitstain but it's already been pointed out that she is all about being verbally in a person's face, not physical intimidation.

Regarding the drop in the threat level I do think they let that slide a bit but I can also see it as a natural consequence of familiarity. We first enter the prison through Piper's eyes and she is even intimidated by Taystee. Unknown people are frequently more threatening than known people. They probably should have introduced some malicious new guards and not just incompetent guards.

That's going to need some explanation because of course we have a new rapist. We don't have much insight into his mental wiring but everything except the rape was a shy, insecure, wanting-to-please guy. I don't question his transition to rapist but I can't say I fathom it either.

This show is so full of nuggets that I don't even know how to address them. Part of me wants to take it one episode at a time and the other part wants to careen wildly from one bit to another.

One bit that made me giggle with delight was the thugs descending on Christopher and how the last one in the door wiped his feet before crossing the threshhold. Irony!

Also, a bit between Gloria and Sophia which is made more poignant post-conflict: it was something about having a don't-fuck-with-me hairdo and Gloria says, "I mostly use my face for that."

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

On the topic of the Norma cult, I'm fairly sure it is just a straight up deconstruction of religion. Period. Stop. End of line.

She begins as a disciple, then strikes out on her own, and comforts people the only way she knows, through human contact (which many of them are denied) which they interpret is magic. Other seeming random events are attributed to her power. She gains a following, her followers corrupt her teachings and even she herself becomes some what corrupted by her power. That last part is very on point for what many people consider the issue with organized religion, that beneficial humanist beliefs can get corrupted by its institutionalization.

[karaddin]

This is helpful for me to know although it is depressing to think of estrogen as a muscle melter. I would prefer to believe that people who eschew masculinity avoid strength training and that is the reason for decreased muscle mass--still a damn shame but it lacks the sense of helplessness which the biological explanation creates.

I hope this is the source of our miscommunication. I never meant to imply that life as a whole is easier for trans people, that would be ludicrous. I think it is possible that someone who was nurtured as a male and lived as one through to adulthood has some advantages which do not outweigh the struggles. Case in point, Pennsatucky's mom specifically trained her to be a rape victim from the very moment that the first drop of blood appeared in her underwear.

I think that most people lack the self awareness to pinpoint exactly what their own advantages are. Piper is not blind to her privilege but she can't see it clearly either. I love that bit with everyone gathered around while Piper explains that she did not grow up in a mansion, just a nice house with 4-5 bathrooms.

Estrogen isn't a muscle melter, testosterone builds it - it's a steroid. Without testosterone sustaining the previous level of muscle mass, you will lose the muscle mass you had. This can be somewhat countered by increasing the level of strength work you do, but it's unlikely to fully counter it. Bear in mind trans women also tend to drop to negligible levels of testosterone, prior to surgery our drugs tend to block it nearly completely and after surgery we only have trace amounts produced by the adrenal gland, this is lower than that of cis women so when people are suggesting trans women have an advantage physically, when it comes to muscle mass and other associated effects of testosterone we are actually at a disadvantage. This also has a tendency to lower the metabolism, increasing weight gain (which is also increased by loss of muscle mass - muscles burn calories). I do the same level of activity as I did for most of my pre transition life and have substantially less muscle, and I always struggled to build muscle mass even for the period I was actively exercising and doing strength training stuff, so it's extraordinarily low muscle mass now. I also eat 33-50% less food than I typically did, and less than half what I was eating when I lived in the US, yet my weight is the same as at my highest point which was when I was in the US because it's so much harder to keep it off now. The one thing that can be said for it is I don't look like I'm carrying the same amount of weight, it sits a lot better now, yay for boobs and hips and a butt?

I suspect the biggest issue was your use of "unfair" before advantage. There are some benefits gained, and I even said as much in the previous post, although these will depend on age of transition, but they don't amount to an unfair advantage, or even a net advantage. Personally I'm more assertive than I would have been otherwise, and thus more likely to call people out for sexism when I experience it because I've felt how people treated me before and I can see the difference. I'm potentially in a better position career wise than I would have been, but that's impossible to say for sure - I would have gotten my helpdesk job anyway, and the boss that promoted me out of the helpdesk hires women when they are there and fit for the role so provided I was still me I think I get the opportunity. That's about it in the column of advantages. I guess I'd list being gay as an advantage, but that's because I am gay and scared of men and trans - I'd be less scared of men if I were not. All of the negative messages aimed at women I still internalised and they weigh on me just as heavily as any woman.

I'm very introspective and have spent a lot of time pondering the subject, unlike Piper who is quite happy to be blind to her privileges, however most of mine at this point come from my class and whiteness not from any male socialisation which simply left me mentally broken for a very long time.

[Castel]

I'm very introspective and have spent a lot of time pondering the subject, unlike Piper who is quite happy to be blind to her privileges, however most of mine at this point come from my class and whiteness not from any male socialisation which simply left me mentally broken for a very long time.

Piper bounces back and forth. Sometimes she's quite clear and sometimes she's an asshole. This came in a lot in Season 1, where she even felt guilty about it.

But Jenji Kohan insists that her leads be assholes so it couldn't last long.

[eyenon15]

If they were going to use named characters for the beating I could see Flocka (? fake acid girl) and Cindy. Despite the conversion to Judaism arc I feel that both of them have no redeeming qualities of character (as presented so far.) Leanne also has no redeeming qualities but she's got her own intimidation arc going with Soso. Aleida is a shitstain but it's already been pointed out that she is all about being verbally in a person's face, not physical intimidation.

Neither Cindy nor Flacca have shown any inclination towards violence. They might be assholes but there's a huge difference between that and going around beating people up.

As far as I can remember. Morello and Suzanne are the only remaining main characters that have shown a willingness to condone or commit violence. And for both of these characters it's implied they are dealing with some very serious mental illnesses.

Tucky shot someone for pissing her off outside of prison but they really explored her character this season. From the leader of the Evil White Trash group in season 1 to now a very sympathetic victim of repeated rapes

[HexMachina]

Neither Cindy nor Flacca have shown any inclination towards violence. They might be assholes but there's a huge difference between that and going around beating people up.

As far as I can remember. Morello and Suzanne are the only remaining main characters that have shown a willingness to condone or commit violence. And for both of these characters it's implied they are dealing with some very serious mental illnesses.

Tucky shot someone for pissing her off outside of prison but they really explored her character this season. From the leader of the Evil White Trash group in season 1 to now a very sympathetic victim of repeated rapes

Tucky would have been capable of it in Season 1, yeah. Morello can condone violence (sending Vinnie to beat up Christopher, which I probably shouldn't have enjoyed, but I did) but I doubt she'd do it for no reason at all. Suzanne only lashes out in tense circumstances, and is more likely to hurt herself than others. She'd only ever attack Sophia if provoked.

Cindy, definitely not. She is harmless, mostly. She was slightly different under Vee, but even so, aside from that she has mostly just been the harmless if somewhat loud and outspoken inmate. (Btw, her conversion to Judaism is even more interesting when you realise she was raised in the Church, and presumably had pretty Christian parents - back in Season one she demonstrates this after Tucky leaves the dead rat on Piper's bed "The so bad, even they cows had to die.") I'm not sure how Cindy can be said to have no redeemable qualities btw (directed to litechick, not eyenon)

Flacca is again, quite vocal, but otherwise has shown little indication she would resort to violence (although the she did get into a fight with Taystee over the king cone :p)

[brook]

(and obviously Big Boo would never commit a hate crime on Sophia).

Sadly without remembering if we've ever seen the two interacting that fact is far from obvious.

[litechick]

I suspect the biggest issue was your use of "unfair" before advantage.

Ahh, I guess that was poor communication on my part. "Unfair advantage" was my characterization of the argument Sophia's attackers were making. The impression I got was that they saw Gloria's bruise as man on woman violence instead of woman on woman violence and declared that to be unfair. Also, one mentions that her husband is doing time in a rougher men's prison and that is unfair. Both points are wrong and ignorant but I could not go so far as to say there is no advantage at all to being reared as a man, particularly when we have a whole string of in-show examples of how women are socialized to be less than men. (We haven't talked much about Chang but there's one.)

The other way that the 'unfair' argument may have some basis is in the muscle mass sense. Not knowing anything about how muscles change post-transition I am left to size Sophia up the old fashioned way and say she looks pretty formidable and she used to be a fire fighter, she shouldn't have too much trouble defending herself.

However, as I said in my first post, Sophia is in a Catch 22 in that sense. If she has the power to fight them off, that just reinforces their complaint.

Despite the fact that I pissed you off, I'm glad you are still willing to talk to me about it. FWIW, I have had very little exposure to anti-trans tropes and I probably need to rewatch the 'dark circles under your eyes' bit. I may very well be missing the point entirely.

If someone would care to enlighten me, I would be interested to know what redeeming qualities Cindy has. Sure she can be entertaining but the TSA stuff and the way she treated her family plus her obnoxious behavior in prison...I'm not seeing anything admirable there.

[karaddin]

But she doesn't have the power to fight them off, we were shown that when they beat the shit out of her. It didn't play as "refusing to use her strength" it was "doesn't have capability". Yes she is tall and has the legacy of a large bone structure, this also makes her stand out and ensures people can tell she is trans - trans women in this situation are frequently targets and tend to learn to use the size and ignorance to act like they have that capability when threatened to intimidate people into backing down. A very good friend of mine who couldn't beat anyone in a fight has had to do this as recently as two months ago when she was accosted by a group of drunk 18yo at a take away shop. It's exactly what you see Sophia do, she stands up tall and tries to scare Gloria, she tries to scare that group but when it doesn't work she's helpless and as I said before she would have lost the fight to any of them. Let's remember that height really doesn't go that far and the biggest beat down we have seen in the show was handed out by Piper.

The dark circles under the eyes thing you don't even need to rewatch, it's in the dialogue you quoted "a real woman wouldn't xxx" carries an implicit "you aren't a real woman", you don't word things like that otherwise.

And you've admitted ignorance on these issues now, so please listen to me when I say that the element you are looking at, there is no overall advantage to being socialized male when you are a woman. There are minor things like increased assertiveness, but they are insignificant compared to all the harm it does, and I can't see the relevance to the show? We still know inside we are women, all of the negative messages society tells women about our appearance get internalised etc, on top of that trauma. Sophia is not shown in a position of advantage, she's simply shown as having a skill she's able to capitalise on in prison. I'm not sure what point you are even trying to make with Changs back story? Yes we won't try to be sold into marriage, but that doesn't seem like much of a point so I don't think that's what you are saying. Maybe Tucky would be more relevant, we aren't taught to expect to be raped? But I don't think you can argue that's an advantage when you consider are are even more likely to be raped than cis women and are in no way prepared to be able to cope with it, not even a shitty unhealthy way to keep living like Tucky has, and we will be told even more than cis women that it's our fault.

Let me ask you all something - everyone agrees that the on screen rapes of Tucky were awful and difficult to watch, because they were. How many of you think that what happened to Sophia was a physical assault? Because it wasn't, it was a sexual assault and I haven't seen one person acknowledge that our recognize that it was a fuck of a lot more traumatic than a physical assault alone. The camera cuts away before it actually happens, but it's very clear what happens, the attackers stated their intent - to pull off her pants and look at her genitals, and are shown trying to pull them down. After the fact Sophia is shown with a level of violation and trauma consistent with experiencing a sexual assault, because that's what happened.

Awesome Possum - yet you don't lecture the person that blithely posted a useless post about entering the thread then exiting it again on adding nothing. Consider that rather than "finger wagging" or "playing the victim" (listen to yourself, you sound like a right wing troll) you are talking to an old woman who has been victimized many times in her life for what her history is and doesn't really want to be told that she had an unfair advantage for the thing that made her life so difficult. That's not fucking playing the victim.

[Castel]

I was pretty disgusted at Morello and Vinnie (+friends) for beating up Christopher, but then I remembered that Christopher is really kinda mean to Morello. Probably justified given she tried to kill him and his girlfriend after stalking them for months, but she's so sweet that it's easy to forget that. xD

See, Morello had that going for her last season, but this one? She was at her most sympathetic and interesting then. Now she just bores and annoys me.

[SheRa Seastar]

I guess I'm the only one who actually liked the Norma love cult. Yes, they were annoying after awhile. But, wasn't that the point?

The group worked well as a counterpoint for other storylines: the flashbacks for both Norma and Leanne, the relationship between Red and Norma, and the new relationship between Poussey and Soso.

Several people mentioned at the beginning of the thread that the connective theme of the season (in lieu of a main villain) was change. I thought it was love and the search thereof, and the Norma love cult was the cornerstone of that motif.

Also, I'm anxious for the next season to see Watson's (the track runner with strict Muslim parents) reactions within the black clique as it becomes the prison's melting pot.

There was a scene in the finale that made no sense to me. Can someone help me figure it out?

A young adult female put something in the microwave. A fuse is blown. She fiddles with the plug-in and then gives herself a nasty electrical shock. Black Screen. She wakes up to an EMT saying that he had to use a defibrillator to restart her heart. Did that EMT see evidence of illegal drugs causing the DEA to raid Cesar's apartment?

Wasn't it Boo, and when she came round she said something along the lines of 'I was dead, and there was nothing'

I thought she was saying that there isn't a god.

[HexMachina]

Wasn't it Boo, and when she came round she said something along the lines of 'I was dead, and there was nothing'

I thought she was saying that there isn't a god.

She says "There is no God. There is nothing." I'm now starting to think it has to do with the Donut man. Her and Tiffany had taken their revenge, but then Mariza was put with him. Sort of like a "No one looking out for us down here" kind of thing