Why would Harry agree to marry a bastard?

[RobertRivers]

I recall Sansa posing the exact same question to Littlefinger - why would Harry "the Heir" agree to marry a bastard? LF replies that she is the wealthy Lord Protector's bastard, and he's also been buying up Anya Waynwood's debts. I surmise that money is changing hands - quite a lot of money.

There is also the fact that "Alayne" is Littlefinger's only child; maybe LF has been sweetening the deal with a promise to legitimize "Alayne" before the marriage, which would make her a major heiress.

I think it is also very possible that Lady Waynwood knows far more than she is letting on and has her own agenda, which she is not telling Harry or LF. There was a hint in AFFC when Lady Waynwood is defending "Alayne" from Lyn Corbray's crass remarks - "the girl is young and gently bred, and has witnessed enough horrors" (paraphrased). It could be she's talking about Lysa's death, but "gently bred" makes me wonder. I wonder if Anya Waynwood - who knew Lysa Arryn, has seen Catelyn Tully, and might notice the family resemblance between "Alayne" and these women - at least suspects who Sansa is.

I do not think Harry knows as much of what is going on as Lady Waynwood (possibly) does, however, or he wouldn't be rude enough to be discourteous to Sansa in front of her. This is a woman who is an absolute stickler for manners, and her ward is humiliating her by being rude to his hostess.

That makes me think Anya Waynwood knows exactly who "Alayne" is.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think having re read the Alayne chapter again, that Anya has indeed agreed to the betrothal because of Lf buying up her debts. And does not know who Alayne is, she may be suspicious due to Sansa's look being so alike to the Tully's and having known Lysa for years. Also any Stark that is in Sansa's face may stand out to her due to her own Stark blood.

But she doesn't know for certain imo.

It seems clear from the sample chapter that Lf is wooing Harry the Heir, he places him in the Falcon tower, a nod to him being the young Falcon, he is playing on Harry's vanity here. The lavish feast shows harry that Lord Baelish can give him an opulent lifestyle even if he never inherits the eyrie, as Alayne's husband he benefits from Lord Baelish's coffers, and we know from what Harry says about Saffron that he does value wealth in a woman.

LF is also rigging the lists, so Harry wins wings, When he talks about BYR allowing Harry to enter, he mentions that Harry is "Nowise skilled enough to win a place" meaning that BYR felt safe enough allowing Harry to attend as he has no fear the boy would win a place. LF will ensure he does, thus ensuring he stays at Alayne, and his own side.

I think the daggers will fall on Lady Waynewood. LF has placed her in the Moon Tower, and Alayne mentions her knights will have to share a bed as there was no space. LF only needed Lady Anya to broker the proposal of a match, and now it is up to Harry to accept it, Harry is rapidly falling for Alayne, just as planned and once he has LF no longer needs Anya Waynwood, who has considerable sway over the boy. What do you do when you are trying to take a person under your own influence? you break their bonds with anyone else who may oppose you. So I think the identical daggers will be used to assassinate her whilst she is isolated in the moon tower, and the empty dungeon mentioned in the chapter means someone will wake up to find their dagger missing and themselves accused, framed and imprisoned for the murder. Thus leaving Harry "motherless" and with a place on the winged guard to take up. We know several of the competitors are betrothed so having a spot in the guard does not preclude him accepting the betrothal. And it gives LF three years to get rid of Sansa's first marriage and three years to have increasing his own influence on Harry through getting him well accustomed to a lavish lifestyle, and his stunning fiance.

It seems as well LF means to starve BYR who is his other main influence, severing that relationship and further isolating harry, which is what any abusive person does, they isolate their victim, and make them financially and emotionally reliant upon them. I'm not saying LF will abuse Harry I'm saying he is using classic tactics to place the boy firmly in his grasp.

[Khal Shaggydog]

RE: Bastards inheriting - this has a lot to do with the specific family, the specific bastard, and the ruling monarch. By logic, Edric Storm would stand to inherit Storms End, since the Baratheon line is now down to Shireen through Stannis, and other bastards of Robert. Edric is highborn on both sides, acknowledged, and besides that, is a young, bright, strong version of Robert.

But does anyone envision a scenario when a Lannister monarch acknowledges that claim? How about Stannis? He would have to overcome the objections of his wife, and deal with yet another intra-Florent power struggle as they would certainly split up on both sides of the issue - the ones that try for power through Edric's mother, and the ones that are offended that he was concieved outside marriage on Stannis' wedding bed.

Roose acknowledged Ramsay when it became something convenient for Roose, but it is also crucial that Roose had the ability to request the legitimization from the Lannisters.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I doubt the objections would come from Selyse who would likely just insist Edric & Shireen marry. Thus all florent factions are happy.

[walkingWITHcersei]

I always figured Anna knows her true identity I just can't get past why Harry would agree. I doubt someone with a ward has any legal authority to marry the ward off rather traditionally the ward goes along with the match out of gratitude and respect. That being said Harry seems like the type to not give two shits about tradition, respect, gratitude, or anything of the sort and would never agree to the match unless he wanted to. He's being set up as a parallel to Robert and for all his talk about Jon Arryn telling him he needed to marry Cersei his agreeing to the marriage was as much to do with Cersei's looks as anything. I can't imagine Robert would have let even Arryn talk him into a marriage he didn't want, and I def don't think Harry loves the Waynwoods the way Robert loved Jon. I'm interested to find out how the Robert-Lyanna engagement developed in the early stages. Had Robert met her or was HH the first time he saw her? Was his obsession with her real or just the asoiaf version of a child only wanting a toy after another child plays with it? Sorry I'm kinda all over the board here and no closer to understanding anything lol I will predict that if we ever get details of the early Robert/Lyanna situation it'll be very close to how the Sansa-Harding situation plays out.

[Lord Damian]

I always figured Anna knows her true identity I just can't get past why Harry would agree. I doubt someone with a ward has any legal authority to marry the ward off rather traditionally the ward goes along with the match out of gratitude and respect. That being said Harry seems like the type to not give two shits about tradition, respect, gratitude, or anything of the sort and would never agree to the match unless he wanted to. He's being set up as a parallel to Robert and for all his talk about Jon Arryn telling him he needed to marry Cersei his agreeing to the marriage was as much to do with Cersei's looks as anything. I can't imagine Robert would have let even Arryn talk him into a marriage he didn't want, and I def don't think Harry loves the Waynwoods the way Robert loved Jon. I'm interested to find out how the Robert-Lyanna engagement developed in the early stages. Had Robert met her or was HH the first time he saw her? Was his obsession with her real or just the asoiaf version of a child only wanting a toy after another child plays with it? Sorry I'm kinda all over the board here and no closer to understanding anything lol I will predict that if we ever get details of the early Robert/Lyanna situation it'll be very close to how the Sansa-Harding situation plays out.

Because Littlefinger is shipping the idea, do not expect it to happen as he says. This guy, known as Littlefinger is the type of person who does not "pass gas" or "wipe his nose" unless he has an alterior motive. Guaranteed.

[Skinner]

This is actually a very interesting debate. Does the crown grant the permission for bastards to inherit their parent's estate if they are an only child? if so what happens when a king dies and only has bastards? Who grants the permission then, which bastard gets the estate, does the High-Septon need to be consulted? Very interesting indeed... this may be a reason for LF to keep Mya around.

As for Alayne, I have no doubt LF told Anya that Harry will wed a legitimized Alayne which would grant Harry Harrenhall (lol, the names sound alike, it is meant to be :P). So Harry will be lord of Harrenhall and the Heir to the Vale (and he'll be filthy rich, I have no doubt that the lavish feast in Winds was meant to show Harry what kind of opulence he'll get to enjoy if he sticks by LF's daughter).

"cough"Ramsay"cough"

[Mourneblade]

Alrigth, i did not know that

Blueyes is more right than wrong here... Technically the bastard would inherit if there are no trueborn family left alive... however the seven kingdoms are not governed by the rule of law, and a prize estate such as Harrenhal would more likely be taken by the crown and given to a lackey... unless said Bastard had a sizeable army or something other that would be of use to the Lord of the the area or the Crown on a case by case basis....

In this situation we are talking about a girl with no power or army...However if Harry was her husband it does add serious weight to this discussion, especially if he were Warden of the East and Lord of the Vale...

[Brother Seamus]

With Harry's parents dead, Waynwood is Harry's legal guardian, and stands in their place, with all attendant privileges. That includes the right to make betrothal arrangements. It doesn't matter that "he's a ward who would be welcomed by any house in the Vale"; he's Waynwood's ward, he doesn't pick.

Theon wasn't a ward, he was a hostage against Theon's actual family. Completely different.

The first point is what I was thinking: that Waynwood has the right to contract a marriage and compel Harry to accept it. Accordingly, my assumption is that LF has disclosed to Waynwood who Alayne is, and it's understood that at some propitious moment her identity will be publicly revealed.

[Lord Damian]

I think having re read the Alayne chapter again, that Anya has indeed agreed to the betrothal because of Lf buying up her debts. And does not know who Alayne is, she may be suspicious due to Sansa's look being so alike to the Tully's and having known Lysa for years. Also any Stark that is in Sansa's face may stand out to her due to her own Stark blood.

But she doesn't know for certain imo.

It seems clear from the sample chapter that Lf is wooing Harry the Heir, he places him in the Falcon tower, a nod to him being the young Falcon, he is playing on Harry's vanity here. The lavish feast shows harry that Lord Baelish can give him an opulent lifestyle even if he never inherits the eyrie, as Alayne's husband he benefits from Lord Baelish's coffers, and we know from what Harry says about Saffron that he does value wealth in a woman.

LF is also rigging the lists, so Harry wins wings, When he talks about BYR allowing Harry to enter, he mentions that Harry is "Nowise skilled enough to win a place" meaning that BYR felt safe enough allowing Harry to attend as he has no fear the boy would win a place. LF will ensure he does, thus ensuring he stays at Alayne, and his own side.

I think the daggers will fall on Lady Waynewood. LF has placed her in the Moon Tower, and Alayne mentions her knights will have to share a bed as there was no space. LF only needed Lady Anya to broker the proposal of a match, and now it is up to Harry to accept it, Harry is rapidly falling for Alayne, just as planned and once he has LF no longer needs Anya Waynwood, who has considerable sway over the boy. What do you do when you are trying to take a person under your own influence? you break their bonds with anyone else who may oppose you. So I think the identical daggers will be used to assassinate her whilst she is isolated in the moon tower, and the empty dungeon mentioned in the chapter means someone will wake up to find their dagger missing and themselves accused, framed and imprisoned for the murder. Thus leaving Harry "motherless" and with a place on the winged guard to take up. We know several of the competitors are betrothed so having a spot in the guard does not preclude him accepting the betrothal. And it gives LF three years to get rid of Sansa's first marriage and three years to have increasing his own influence on Harry through getting him well accustomed to a lavish lifestyle, and his stunning fiance.

It seems as well LF means to starve BYR who is his other main influence, severing that relationship and further isolating harry, which is what any abusive person does, they isolate their victim, and make them financially and emotionally reliant upon them. I'm not saying LF will abuse Harry I'm saying he is using classic tactics to place the boy firmly in his grasp.

I think Littlefinger ought to tread lightly in the Vale as his position is precarious and Anya Waynewood is not someone to be fooled with. Yes, he is using money to influence lords and ladies (I believe, money he has embezzeled from the Iron Throne for years) but money and blackmail and betrayal will get the money man killed just as he could pay to have someone else killed. I think Littlefinger may not make it past Winds.

[kayasnow]

I thought the betrothal was on the condition that Harry approve of Alayne, which is why Sansa has to seduce him. So Waynwood agreed to the match with Baelish, but made it clear that if Harry didn't approve then the betrothal wouldn't happen. So, the way I read it was: it's not yet a legal agreement, like Sansa's betrothal to Joff was (remember, the HS had to come up with some convoluted reason that Sansa could be set aside). So, if Harry doesn't agree to marry Alayne, there's no betrothal contract to break yet. If he agrees to the betrothal, then it's legally binding, but right now it's not binding so it's up to Sansa/Alayne to convince him to agree to it.

That's the way I had read it, but it's been awhile since I read AFFC.

[WhitewolfStark]

The first point is what I was thinking: that Waynwood has the right to contract a marriage and compel Harry to accept it. Accordingly, my assumption is that LF has disclosed to Waynwood who Alayne is, and it's understood that at some propitious moment her identity will be publicly revealed.

Traditionally warders had the power to arrange marriages for their wards. It was only with Magna Carta that wards and wardship got some regulation:

Clause 4 of Magna Carta - Regulated the process of wardship, and the role of the guardian.

"The guardian of the land of an heir who is thus under age, shall take from the land of the heir nothing but reasonable produce, reasonable customs, and reasonable services, and that without destruction or waste of men or goods; and if we have committed the wardship of the lands of any such minor to the sheriff, or to any other who is responsible to us for its issues, and he has made destruction or waster of what he holds in wardship, we will take of him amends, and the land shall be committed to two lawful and discreet men of that fee, who shall be responsible for the issues to us or to him to whom we shall assign them; and if we have given or sold the wardship of any such land to anyone and he has therein made destruction or waste, he shall lose that wardship, and it shall be transferred to two lawful and discreet men of that fief, who shall be responsible to us in like manner as aforesaid."

Clause 5 of Magna Carta - Forbade the exploitation of a ward's property by his guardian.

"The guardian, moreover, so long as he has the wardship of the land, shall keep up the houses, parks, fishponds, stanks, mills, and other things pertaining to the land, out of the issues of the same land; and he shall restore to the heir, when he has come to full age, all his land, stocked with ploughs and wainage, according as the season of husbandry shall require, and the issues of the land can reasonable bear."

Clause 6 of Magna Carta - Forbade guardians from marrying a ward to a partner of lower social standing.

"Heirs shall be married without disparagement, yet so that before the marriage takes place the nearest in blood to that heir shall have notice."

Before that, warders were causing all sorts of problems for their wards, which I imagine was why they were so high on the list.

So it comes down to whether or not you think Westeros has some form of Magna Carta-like laws regulating how wards and warders. We're told that many "reforms" have been made over the years via the World Book, but the specifics have never been outright stated.

[Blackfish Tully]

Don't forget the Harry is in a very weird position . If Robin dies then Harry is the new Lord of the Vale and one of the richest , most powerful men in the world but if Robin lives and has children the Harry is nothing more than a poor hedge knight with no lands and incomes. He is in the same situation as Lyn Cordray . As soon as Lyonel has children Lyn's chances of being a Lord are pretty much gone.

This situation is what makes Harry consider marrying the bastard daughter of one of the richest , most powerful men around.

[Harry the Hair]

Don't forget the Harry is in a very weird position . If Robin dies then Harry is the new Lord of the Vale and one of the richest , most powerful men in the world but if Robin lives and has children the Harry is nothing more than a poor hedge knight with no lands and incomes. He is in the same situation as Lyn Cordray . As soon as Lyonel has children Lyn's chances of being a Lord are pretty much gone.

This situation is what makes Harry consider marrying the bastard daughter of one of the richest , most powerful men around.

Yup and seeing as LF has no sons, as far as Harry knows Alayne, if legitimized, inherits Harrenhall. So I'm guessing the prospect of inheriting Harrenhall is what lured him in (Harrold Hardyng Lord of Harrenhall, it does have a ring to it :P)... the cash helps too, it could be his safety net in case things with Sweetrobin don't work out.

[Harry the Hair]

"cough"Ramsay"cough"

I always saw Ramsay as a special case since his legitimization was part of a deal to secure the Bolton alliance. LF is thought to be loyal to the crown so there's no need to bribe him, I don't think that the same procedure will be applied to him because of that.

[bruna stormborn]

I agree with someone above who said that Anya Waynwood already know that Alayne is Sansa. If she doesn't know it by now, I think there will be a moment LF will suggest this to her, until she figures it out. On the other hand, like someone already said, she is daughter of the Lord Paramount of the Trident, Lord of Harrenhall, a wealthy man who is running the Vale. But.. for some reason, I don't see this marriage happening. Strong feeling that someone important will die or Sansa will have to flee the Vale (poor girl) for something she or LF did...

[Khal Shaggydog]

Shout out to the poster rocking the Magna Carta clauses. But which version of the MC was this from? 1215 original? Any of hte subsequent versions needed after King John clawed back some power on the back of William Marshall?

Someone said it earlier as well, Westeros, more so currently than during previous times, is basically governed by a catch as catch can mentality now. With a bunch of different monarchs declaring this and that all over the place, these claims are only going to be sorted out to the extent that there is a centralized ruler in the future who brings overall order to the realm. Otherwise, people will use their powers to hold onto whatver gains they currently have.

[WhitewolfStark]

Shout out to the poster rocking the Magna Carta clauses. But which version of the MC was this from? 1215 original? Any of hte subsequent versions needed after King John clawed back some power on the back of William Marshall?

Someone said it earlier as well, Westeros, more so currently than during previous times, is basically governed by a catch as catch can mentality now. With a bunch of different monarchs declaring this and that all over the place, these claims are only going to be sorted out to the extent that there is a centralized ruler in the future who brings overall order to the realm. Otherwise, people will use their powers to hold onto whatver gains they currently have.

They were all part of the original 1215 document and in subsequent forms of the document, so clearly they cared pretty much about the subject. They weren't repealed until the 1860s when new legislation went into effect.

Pretty much, to your second part.

[SynthFG]

If all the Baratheons die, I'd presume that Edric Storm, being the acknowledged bastard, would have a chance to inherit Storms End. I can't see any of the others doing so

No Chance

At the moment the title has gone to Trommen and will pass to Mycella,

but assuming they die / are disinherited and Stannis & Shereen die then the title inheritance will track up the family tree to lord Seffon and then across to any brother or sister before tracking down the male preferenced heirs of that branch of the family

[LouiseStark]

The first point is what I was thinking: that Waynwood has the right to contract a marriage and compel Harry to accept it. Accordingly, my assumption is that LF has disclosed to Waynwood who Alayne is, and it's understood that at some propitious moment her identity will be publicly revealed.

I think her identity will be semi-revealed via Mad Mouse (Ser Shadrich), who has been looking for Sansa for a while.

Even if its just to blackmail LF.