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BryndenBFish

The Complete Winds of Winter Resource v. 2

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Curious. He starts with 13 POVs, which means that some POV characters who are alive at the end of ADwD will not have chapters.



There's still 19 or 20 (if you are counting Jon Snow) living POVs - Arya, Sansa, Bran, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, Brienne, Aeron, Victarion, Asha, Theon, Jon Connington, Arianne, Areo, Melisandre, Davos, Ser Barristan, Daenerys, Samwell, (Jon).



Which of these won't have any chapters?



Edit: I noticed there exists a thread about this, sorry.


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This might be of relevance or concern to you guys

A poster on his Not a Blog said in response to GRRM's latest post "Reading for Hugos":
"You wrote thousands of words about how terrible the whole Puppy thing was and how it ruined the Hugo, and then you proceed to read everything that's been nominated?

Not complaining, it's just that, as a fan, it's a bit heartbreaking to see that you seem to be enthusiastic about everything except The Winds of Winter."

In which GRRM responded,
"That's such an idiotic thing to say.
I would think, after having devoted something like TWENTY FIVE YEARS OF MY LIFE to A Song of Ice & Fire, that my enthusiasm for it could be safely assumed without me having to reiterate every day."
What are your thoughts on this?

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He might have already delivered a draft of the complete manuscript, and therefore he might have a lot of pastime while waiting for the editor's revisions :pirate:


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He might have already delivered a draft of the complete manuscript, and therefore he might have a lot of pastime while waiting for the editor's revisions :pirate:

Writing is his job. He gets time off like the rest of us to read, post about Hugos, watch films at his cinema, whatever.

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This might be of relevance or concern to you guys

A poster on his Not a Blog said in response to GRRM's latest post "Reading for Hugos":

"You wrote thousands of words about how terrible the whole Puppy thing was and how it ruined the Hugo, and then you proceed to read everything that's been nominated?

Not complaining, it's just that, as a fan, it's a bit heartbreaking to see that you seem to be enthusiastic about everything except The Winds of Winter."

In which GRRM responded,

"That's such an idiotic thing to say.

I would think, after having devoted something like TWENTY FIVE YEARS OF MY LIFE to A Song of Ice & Fire, that my enthusiasm for it could be safely assumed without me having to reiterate every day."
What are your thoughts on this?

I'd say that fan was an utter arse and ought to be ashemed of his/her post.

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What are your thoughts on this?

I fail to see how that can be related to TWoW in any way. It was simply a fan being an impatient rectum and Martin calling him out for it.

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This might be of relevance or concern to you guys

A poster on his Not a Blog said in response to GRRM's latest post "Reading for Hugos":

"You wrote thousands of words about how terrible the whole Puppy thing was and how it ruined the Hugo, and then you proceed to read everything that's been nominated?

Not complaining, it's just that, as a fan, it's a bit heartbreaking to see that you seem to be enthusiastic about everything except The Winds of Winter."

In which GRRM responded,

"That's such an idiotic thing to say.

I would think, after having devoted something like TWENTY FIVE YEARS OF MY LIFE to A Song of Ice & Fire, that my enthusiasm for it could be safely assumed without me having to reiterate every day."

What are your thoughts on this?

I'd say that's exactly how I would respond. Fan entitlement much? Also, that has nothing to do with the Winds of Winter

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Yes guys there are a lot of errors, but we're getting REALLY off topic. Let's not discuss it here anymore.

BryndenBFish: Again, thank you so much for your compilation, I've enjoyed reading it. :) Question: how far do you believe GRRM is with TWOW? How many pages do you think he has approximately finished, and why?

I wrote up an article at Watchers on the Wall on the topic using all the info currently available, and I think George is just north of 1000 pages. But I'm only guessing at progress and basing it on an incomplete and unscientific model. Fair warning: the mods here have requested that speculation on George's progress on Winds take place elsewhere. And thanks so much for the kind words!

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I fail to see how that can be related to TWoW in any way. It was simply a fan being an impatient rectum and Martin calling him out for it.

That commenter was right, but inarticulate.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who noticed that just after GRRM announced he was making good progress, he then proceeded to spend two weeks writing long blog posts about the Sad Puppy thing. I wouldn't say I'm half as bitter as the person who wrote that comment though, and I think it's rude to directly call him out on it if you aren't a personal friend of his.

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BryndenBFish, we have a math problem here.



You have 7 confirmed released POVs: Arianne, Sansa, Arya, Victarion, Barristan, Tyrion, Theon. No problem.



You list 5 more confirmed unreleased chapters: Aeron, Bran, Jon Snow, Davos and Dany. I would count some of these as unconfirmed, but agree that most of them (perhaps excluding Davos) are at least probable.



That brings us to 12 "confirmed" POV chapters, by your count.



GRRM says there will be 13 POV chapters in the book. Room for only one more POV if everyone on your "confirmed" list is correct.



But then you go on to say that there are NINE (!!!) more "probable" POV chapters. But if only 1 of the 9 will appear, they can hardly be "probable", can they? Your "probable" statement might end up being justified if 5 of the 9 end up appearing, but that would bring us to 17 POVs, not 13. Of course, if all 9 of your "probable" POVs end up appearing, we reach a massive 21 POVs.



In the earlier thread, I tried to point out that some of your statements were off. Some on your "confirmed" list were in fact unconfirmed, and for many or most on the "probable" there was no reason to believe they would appear at all.



As I recall, you did not take my attempt at constructive criticism kindly. But surely by now you must acknowledge a problem.


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That commenter was right, but inarticulate.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who noticed that just after GRRM announced he was making good progress, he then proceeded to spend two weeks writing long blog posts about the Sad Puppy thing. I wouldn't say I'm half as bitter as the person who wrote that comment though, and I think it's rude to directly call him out on it if you aren't a personal friend of his.

Correction. GRRM never confirmed (or denied) that he was making good progress. IIRC, no progress, good or bad, was mentioned at all. He announced he was cancelling appearances in the hopes of enhancing his future progress.

But yes, I agree that, as long as we are reading tea leaves, this Hugo distraction is hardly a good sign. His response to the commenter had this tone of defiantly resting on his laurels; which I hardly count as a good sign either.

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This might be of relevance or concern to you guys

A poster on his Not a Blog said in response to GRRM's latest post "Reading for Hugos":

"You wrote thousands of words about how terrible the whole Puppy thing was and how it ruined the Hugo, and then you proceed to read everything that's been nominated?

Not complaining, it's just that, as a fan, it's a bit heartbreaking to see that you seem to be enthusiastic about everything except The Winds of Winter."

In which GRRM responded,

"That's such an idiotic thing to say.

I would think, after having devoted something like TWENTY FIVE YEARS OF MY LIFE to A Song of Ice & Fire, that my enthusiasm for it could be safely assumed without me having to reiterate every day."
What are your thoughts on this?

I don't think this elucidates anything about his process. That guy was a jerk - I could pontificate about how GRRM is not going to be working 24/7, and how reading should be a part of every adult's leisure time in addition to a professional responsibility for him - but that is well and oft tread ground at this point. Let the man be. I agree GRRM should have just deleted the comment. Enough of this.

Correction. GRRM never confirmed (or denied) that he was making good progress. IIRC, no progress, good or bad, was mentioned at all. He announced he was cancelling appearances in the hopes of enhancing his future progress.

But yes, I agree that, as long as we are reading tea leaves, this Hugo distraction is hardly a good sign. His response to the commenter had this tone of defiantly resting on his laurels; which I hardly count as a good sign either.

Dude, the Hugos have been a part of his life for over 40 years.

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BryndenBFish, we have a math problem here.

You have 7 confirmed released POVs: Arianne, Sansa, Arya, Victarion, Barristan, Tyrion, Theon. No problem.

You list 5 more confirmed unreleased chapters: Aeron, Bran, Jon Snow, Davos and Dany. I would count some of these as unconfirmed, but agree that most of them (perhaps excluding Davos) are at least probable.

That brings us to 12 "confirmed" POV chapters, by your count.

GRRM says there will be 13 POV chapters in the book. Room for only one more POV if everyone on your "confirmed" list is correct.

But then you go on to say that there are NINE (!!!) more "probable" POV chapters. But if only 1 of the 9 will appear, they can hardly be "probable", can they? Your "probable" statement might end up being justified if 5 of the 9 end up appearing, but that would bring us to 17 POVs, not 13. Of course, if all 9 of your "probable" POVs end up appearing, we reach a massive 21 POVs.

In the earlier thread, I tried to point out that some of your statements were off. Some on your "confirmed" list were in fact unconfirmed, and for many or most on the "probable" there was no reason to believe they would appear at all.

As I recall, you did not take my attempt at constructive criticism kindly. But surely by now you must acknowledge a problem.

In the quote GRRM said there would be 13 POVs, he also said AGOT had 7 POVs, when it really had 9, so he was certainly in error and the quote can't be taken as fact. GRRM also said he thought there were 13, not that it was confirmed there were 13, so he is more likely confused than not, as 13 POVs is essentially an impossible number, given the number of confirmed minor POVs and unconfirmed major POVs. So you are in error here, not Brynden.

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In the quote GRRM said there would be 13 POVs, he also said AGOT had 7 POVs, when it really had 9, so he was certainly in error and the quote can't be taken as fact. GRRM also said he thought there were 13, not that it was confirmed there were 13, so he is more likely confused than not, as 13 POVs is essentially an impossible number, given the number of confirmed minor POVs and unconfirmed major POVs. So you are in error here, not Brynden.

GRRM said, of book 6: 13 at the beginning and fewer at the end. Of AGOT he said 7, which is true of the end but not of the beginning. He did not specify beginning or end for AGOT, so his statement is not clearly an error. But his statement for Book 6 is specific - 13 at the beginning, less at the end.

Yes, "I think" is leaving his options open. Still, I think he knows how to count. But maybe it will be 14? Sure, that's possible. That's still less than the 17+ that BryndenBFish is predicting. So yes, unless this is a misquote from GRRM, I think BryndenBFish is in error.

I love these "Don't trust GRRM" arguments. I mean, maybe we shouldn't trust him absolutely, but you are never going to convince me that BryndenBFish has more authority.

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Dance with Dragons features 16 POVs totally but the first half has 10 POVs(Melisandre,Bran and Davos do not appear in second half) and the second half includes 13(Cersei,Arya,Barristan,Victarion,Jaime,Areo do not appear in the first half).So the number GRRM said can be possible in a same way.


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BryndenBFish, we have a math problem here.

You have 7 confirmed released POVs: Arianne, Sansa, Arya, Victarion, Barristan, Tyrion, Theon. No problem.

You list 5 more confirmed unreleased chapters: Aeron, Bran, Jon Snow, Davos and Dany. I would count some of these as unconfirmed, but agree that most of them (perhaps excluding Davos) are at least probable.

That brings us to 12 "confirmed" POV chapters, by your count.

GRRM says there will be 13 POV chapters in the book. Room for only one more POV if everyone on your "confirmed" list is correct.

GRRM also indirectly confirmed in a comment on his blog that Cersei would return as a POV as well. Now this was ages ago and I have no receipts for this because I can't remember when it was, but... it's not like it really needed confirmation since she's the only KL POV we have.

By your count we have:

  • Arianne Martell

Barristan Selmy

Tyrion Lannister

Arya Stark

Sansa Stark

Theon Greyjoy

Victarion Greyjoy

Aeron Greyjoy

Daenerys Targaryen

Jon Snow

Davos Seaworth

Bran Stark

Which is 12. Throw in Cersei is 13. Add in Jaime or Brienne and that's 14. Add in both (which is possible) and that's 15.

GRRM may know how to count, but 13 just feels like a number that's been plucked out of the air which is vaguely right. Unless we don't get a Davos POV or only one of Jaime/Brienne then I don't see how 13 could possibly be right.

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GRRM also indirectly confirmed in a comment on his blog that Cersei would return as a POV as well. Now this was ages ago and I have no receipts for this because I can't remember when it was, but... it's not like it really needed confirmation since she's the only KL POV we have.



By your count we have:


  • Arianne Martell
  • Barristan Selmy
  • Tyrion Lannister
  • Arya Stark
  • Sansa Stark
  • Theon Greyjoy
  • Victarion Greyjoy
  • Aeron Greyjoy
  • Daenerys Targaryen
  • Jon Snow
  • Davos Seaworth
  • Bran Stark

Which is 12. Throw in Cersei is 13. Add in Jaime or Brienne and that's 14. Add in both (which is possible) and that's 15.



GRRM may know how to count, but 13 just feels like a number that's been plucked out of the air which is vaguely right. Unless we don't get a Davos POV or only one of Jaime/Brienne then I don't see how 13 could possibly be right.





I believe Cersei will have a POV in Book 6; but I can find no comment from GRRM confirming it.



That said ... of course it is possible for George to have only 13 povs. For instance, he could have the following:



1) Arya; 2) Sansa; 3) Arianne; 4) Damp-hair; 5) Barristan; 6) Tyrion; 7) Victarion; 8) Theon; 9) Cersei; 10) Bran; 11) Dany; 12) Jon Snow; 13) Davos.



And he could leave out the following POVs:



14) Asha; 15) Brienne; 16) Jaime; 17) Melisandre; 18) Hotah; 19) Samwell; 20) Jon Connington.



If you like, swap out Jon Snow and/or Davos for one or two people on the second list. (No, Davos has not been confirmed).



GRRM originally intended to tell the entire story using 8 povs, 2 of whom have now died. Those that still live (counting Jon as alive) are Arya, Sansa, Tyrion, Bran, Dany & Jon Snow. All other characters were introduced for limited and temporary purposes, and presumably their POVs will be eliminated as the threads start to converge, and they begin to show up in the POVs of the main players.



So no, I don't think we'll see either Jaime OR Brienne POVs, let alone both. We'll find out what's up with them when the main characters do, I guess. Brienne has been a character in 4 books, only 1 of which she had POV chapters; my guess is we will next see her in Sansa's POV. Jaime was a prominent character in 2 books where he had no POV chapters; my guess is we will next see him in Cersei's POV. Mel's POV chapter was probably a one-off; IIRC, GRRM has hinted as much in interviews.


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