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BryndenBFish

The Complete Winds of Winter Resource v. 2

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That commenter was right, but inarticulate.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who noticed that just after GRRM announced he was making good progress, he then proceeded to spend two weeks writing long blog posts about the Sad Puppy thing. I wouldn't say I'm half as bitter as the person who wrote that comment though, and I think it's rude to directly call him out on it if you aren't a personal friend of his.

This. I agree that commenting on GRRM blog was rude, but completely share the sentiment. I also think that GRRM response was not on point: "I don't have to reiterate my enthusiasm every day." Really GRRM?? Really?? No, you don't have to reiterate your enthusiasm every day, but it would be nice if you worked hard on the WOW every day....and actually finished it for all the fans who made you so rich.

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And he could leave out the following POVs:

14) Asha; 15) Brienne; 16) Jaime; 17) Melisandre; 18) Hotah; 19) Samwell; 20) Jon Connington.

So no, I don't think we'll see either Jaime OR Brienne POVs, let alone both. We'll find out what's up with them when the main characters do, I guess. Brienne has been a character in 4 books, only 1 of which she had POV chapters; my guess is we will next see her in Sansa's POV. Jaime was a prominent character in 2 books where he had no POV chapters; my guess is we will next see him in Cersei's POV. Mel's POV chapter was probably a one-off; IIRC, GRRM has hinted as much in interviews.

In my personal opinion though, I think it is of great importance that Jaime has a POV. While Brienne did not not have a POV in aDwD but Jaime did, I think its important that he has a POV in tWoW in order to tell us what is happening in that part of the story. I don't think that we will see him in CERSEI's POV because consider the condition she is currently in, she just did that walk, Kevan Lannister just died too! So there are too many big events in King's Landing in order for Jaime to suddenly appear in Cersei's POV when he is far from there, engaging in a different story with Brienne.

As for Mel, I think that while Jon is in current condition (dead or alive), she will have a FEW chapters, in order to tell us what's going on at the wall.

Additionally, I also think Jon Connington is also important as his chapters tell us about the movement of Aegon.

Just my opinions though, we'll get what we get. I realllyyy would like a lot of Jaime POVs though, he's very interesting to read and it would be distressing having to wait more years for aDoS in order to read his chapters, if they were not in tWoW.

So with 1500 pages in the book, there could be a hell of a lot of POVs, if not the stated 13

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In my personal opinion though, I think it is of great importance that Jaime has a POV. While Brienne did not not have a POV in aDwD but Jaime did, I think its important that he has a POV in tWoW in order to tell us what is happening in that part of the story. I don't think that we will see him in CERSEI's POV because consider the condition she is currently in, she just did that walk, Kevan Lannister just died too! So there are too many big events in King's Landing in order for Jaime to suddenly appear in Cersei's POV when he is far from there, engaging in a different story with Brienne.

As for Mel, I think that while Jon is in current condition (dead or alive), she will have a FEW chapters, in order to tell us what's going on at the wall.

Additionally, I also think Jon Connington is also important as his chapters tell us about the movement of Aegon.

Just my opinions though, we'll get what we get. I realllyyy would like a lot of Jaime POVs though, he's very interesting to read and it would be distressing having to wait more years for aDoS in order to read his chapters, if they were not in tWoW.

So with 1500 pages in the book, there could be a hell of a lot of POVs, if not the stated 13

Well, if you think a Jaime POV or a Mel POV is more important than (say) a Davos POV or a Jon POV, you can always swap them out. But every fan has his own preferences, and it looks like not everyone is going to get what he/she wants. I'm sure Samwell and Asha have their fans too.

I don't see a Jaime POV as inevitable at all. As I see it, if GRRM wanted us to know what happened to Jaime after Brienne lured him into the darkness, he would have told us by now. Instead he has placed us in the same position as Kevan and Cersei, knowing that Jaime has been missing for weeks and months and not knowing what happened to him. Jaime was expecting only a day's ride, so apparently a twist of some sort has occurred offscreen and passed us by. Cersei's dreams foreshadow his return to King's Landing; and I think that's where we will next see him. Lancel's dreams also foreshadow Jaime coming to kill him; and now Lancel is in King's Landing as well. Kettleback and Moonboy (the others on Jaime's mantra-list) can also be found in King's Landing.

Re: your last comment: Going by GRRM's words, the idea behind having a 1500 manuscript page story is to make a lot of story progress and finish in (hopefully) as few as 2 books (or 3 books, more likely). It is NOT to have as many POVs as possible; and no, the 2 ideas are NOT consistent. Story progress requires story focus. A Storm of Swords was also roughly 1500 manuscript pages, and it did not have as many as 13 POVs. If GRRM starts with 13 and ends with less, he might achieve again the level of focus that the 3rd volumes had. And if by book 7 he has it knocked down to 8 POVs or so, he may achieve the level of story progress that Volume 1 had.

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I've been speculating that the 13 POV statement meant Recurring POVs. I don't think prologue, epilogue, or POVs that happen only once (like Mel in ADWD) count in the estimate.



Either way, I'm with Polly on the thought that fewer POVS will tighten the focus and progress of the story.


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I've been speculating that the 13 POV statement meant Recurring POVs. I don't think prologue, epilogue, or POVs that happen only once (like Mel in ADWD) count in the estimate.

I think this is right. However, "recurring POVs" is pretty much all the surviving POVs we know about and have been talking about, with the possible exception of Mel, who will of course become a recurring POV if she ever recurs.

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Could be that one of the 19/20 POV characters we currently have left, will fill the role of the epilogue (prologue seems unlikely to me, given a certain characters appearance in it.. I don't think we have any POV currently positioned correctly to spot her).

We've seen it before, that a POV from one book disappeared for a while.. Theon, six chapters in Clash, disappeared for Storm, only to appear in Dance again (since Feast and Dance take place mostly at the same time, I'm not counting it as a 'nonappearance' atm)... So perhaps that's what will happen to some of the POVs...

The question then becomes, which POV is currently in the situation to 'disappear' in the storytelling for a full book? Jon, perhaps.. but who else?

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Could be that one of the 19/20 POV characters we currently have left, will fill the role of the epilogue (prologue seems unlikely to me, given a certain characters appearance in it.. I don't think we have any POV currently positioned correctly to spot her).

We've seen it before, that a POV from one book disappeared for a while.. Theon, six chapters in Clash, disappeared for Storm, only to appear in Dance again (since Feast and Dance take place mostly at the same time, I'm not counting it as a 'nonappearance' atm)... So perhaps that's what will happen to some of the POVs...

The question then becomes, which POV is currently in the situation to 'disappear' in the storytelling for a full book? Jon, perhaps.. but who else?

Mel?

And we may not even have an epilogue. So far the epilogue shave only been in 2/5 books, which would roughly speaking place them at the end of each "Act" (those "Acts" being Wot5Ks and the Aftermath). So possibly Winds will not have an epilogue

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Mel?

And we may not even have an epilogue. So far the epilogue shave only been in 2/5 books, which would roughly speaking place them at the end of each "Act" (those "Acts" being Wot5Ks and the Aftermath). So possibly Winds will not have an epilogue

That we might not have an epilogue is certainly a possibility, yes..

If Jon will be absent for a book, then the only way we will be able to see what happens at Castle Black is through Mel, so she might not be the candidate for being absent for a book as well.. at least, I can't imagine we won't see the Wall at all in the next book..

It has been said that we will see Bran in Winds, but has a POV been confirmed? Or is it possible we will see him through the eyes of Mel only? By having her see him in the fires, for example..

Aeron might be absent for another book.. keeping his fate in the dark a bit. I hope Areo will be a POV, as that will give us more time (after Darkstar) to observe Doran, but I don't imagine he will have too many chapters...

Davos... Will we see how he is looking for Rickon? I guess so, as I seem to recall a statement that we will see more Osha in Winds, and Davos should be our eyes for that.

The statement that we might get to see the fall of Storm's End should give us a JonCon POV.

Aeron, Dany, Samwell and Cersei are almost a given.. without Cersei, we won't know what is happening in KL, without Sam, Oldtown.

I could see either Jaime or Brienne being cut as a POV, and my guess would then be Brienne, to keep us in Jamie's head.. should she indeed face him in trial, as be willing to sacrifice herself for him, that might be the last straw that Jaime needs... (is that how you say it in English?).

I can also see Asha being cut.. we know we'll get Theon, and they are at the same location, so both might not be necessary. So that eliminates four characters, possibly, on my count, leaving sixteen possible POVs, which should be 13...

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With the discussion of POVs, I just want everyone to take note that Barristan Selmy only had POV chapters in the latter part of A Dance with Dragons, when Dany disappeared, so that he could show what was going on in Meereen. I liked this approach of putting him there, so I'm hoping that something major will happen to a certain character which will force the introduction of a new POV


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That we might not have an epilogue is certainly a possibility, yes..

If Jon will be absent for a book, then the only way we will be able to see what happens at Castle Black is through Mel, so she might not be the candidate for being absent for a book as well.. at least, I can't imagine we won't see the Wall at all in the next book..

It has been said that we will see Bran in Winds, but has a POV been confirmed? Or is it possible we will see him through the eyes of Mel only? By having her see him in the fires, for example..

Aeron might be absent for another book.. keeping his fate in the dark a bit. I hope Areo will be a POV, as that will give us more time (after Darkstar) to observe Doran, but I don't imagine he will have too many chapters...

Davos... Will we see how he is looking for Rickon? I guess so, as I seem to recall a statement that we will see more Osha in Winds, and Davos should be our eyes for that.

The statement that we might get to see the fall of Storm's End should give us a JonCon POV.

Aeron, Dany, Samwell and Cersei are almost a given.. without Cersei, we won't know what is happening in KL, without Sam, Oldtown.

I could see either Jaime or Brienne being cut as a POV, and my guess would then be Brienne, to keep us in Jamie's head.. should she indeed face him in trial, as be willing to sacrifice herself for him, that might be the last straw that Jaime needs... (is that how you say it in English?).

I can also see Asha being cut.. we know we'll get Theon, and they are at the same location, so both might not be necessary. So that eliminates four characters, possibly, on my count, leaving sixteen possible POVs, which should be 13...

Aeron is confirmed. There are 8 confirmed chapters. Add Dany & Bran and we have 10. Room for 3 more, except you are adding (1) Jon or Mel (2) Jaime or Brienne: (3) Samwell; (4) Davos (5) Cersei; (6) JonCon.

Yup, 16 is too many. GRRM says 13, and I'm going with that. My guess would be Jaime/Brienne, Samwell and JonCon are all expendable.

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Location/POV List:



Location Character #1 Character #2 Character #3 Character #4


Braavos Arya Stark


Slavers' Bay Tyrion Lannister Barristan Selmy Victarion Greyjoy Quentyn Martell*


The Dothraki Sea Danaerys Targaryen


King's Landing Cersei Lannister


The Riverlands Brienne of Tarth Jaime Lannister Catelyn Stark**


Castle Black Melisandre Jon Snow***


Beyond the Wall Bran Stark


Outside Winterfell Theon Greyjoy Asha Greyjoy


Skagos Davos Seaworth


The Iron Islands Aeron Damphair


The Vale Sansa Stark


Dorne Areo Hotah


Oldtown Samwell Tarly


The Stormlands Arianne Martell Jon Connington


Deceased Eddark Stark Arys Oakheart




  • This list includes all POV (non Prologue/Epilogue) in the series so far
  • The bolded names are confirmed POV's for The Winds of Winter
  • The italicized names all are not completely confirmed dead
  • Quentyn Martell is currently dead (dragon burns) unless you believe the Tattered Prince Theory
  • Catelyn Stark is dead, but lives on as Lady Stoneheart and seems unlikely to have a POV
  • Jon Stark is feeling "cold" from stabwounds, but can live on through warging/Melisandre interfering/etc

By looking at how many POV's are in a single location, it can kind of give us an idea of which viewpoints are unnecessary (No need to have Victarion/Tyrion/Barristan all with POV's in Slavers' Bay and no need to have Jaime/Brienne/Catelyn** all in the Riverlands and so on..


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Aeron is confirmed. There are 8 confirmed chapters. Add Dany & Bran and we have 10. Room for 3 more, except you are adding (1) Jon or Mel (2) Jaime or Brienne: (3) Samwell; (4) Davos (5) Cersei; (6) JonCon.

Yup, 16 is too many. GRRM says 13, and I'm going with that. My guess would be Jaime/Brienne, Samwell and JonCon are all expendable.

But how will we see Storm's End fall, if JonCon doesn't have a POV, and SE fell before Arianne's arrival? That we'd be seeing SE fall was confirmed as well, right?

And dropping both Jaime and Brienne, will leave their fates completely unresolved..It won't take an entire book to reach the Brotherhood..

And Samwell... I don't know.. He could give us a look into the Ironborn at Oldtown which could exclude Aeron as a regular POV.... Might it be possible, though perhaps a strange thought, that Aeron will be the prologue character, having made his way into the westerlands, as the Iron Islands are so hostile atm? If he's only in the Prologue, he might not count as one of the 13 POVs...

And how is Bran a confirmed POV?

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That we might not have an epilogue is certainly a possibility, yes..

If Jon will be absent for a book, then the only way we will be able to see what happens at Castle Black is through Mel, so she might not be the candidate for being absent for a book as well.. at least, I can't imagine we won't see the Wall at all in the next book..

It has been said that we will see Bran in Winds, but has a POV been confirmed? Or is it possible we will see him through the eyes of Mel only? By having her see him in the fires, for example..

Aeron might be absent for another book.. keeping his fate in the dark a bit. I hope Areo will be a POV, as that will give us more time (after Darkstar) to observe Doran, but I don't imagine he will have too many chapters...

Davos... Will we see how he is looking for Rickon? I guess so, as I seem to recall a statement that we will see more Osha in Winds, and Davos should be our eyes for that.

The statement that we might get to see the fall of Storm's End should give us a JonCon POV.

Aeron, Dany, Samwell and Cersei are almost a given.. without Cersei, we won't know what is happening in KL, without Sam, Oldtown.

I could see either Jaime or Brienne being cut as a POV, and my guess would then be Brienne, to keep us in Jamie's head.. should she indeed face him in trial, as be willing to sacrifice herself for him, that might be the last straw that Jaime needs... (is that how you say it in English?).

I can also see Asha being cut.. we know we'll get Theon, and they are at the same location, so both might not be necessary. So that eliminates four characters, possibly, on my count, leaving sixteen possible POVs, which should be 13...

I seem to recall that when that person a while back looked at the DwD manuscript he got a photo with POV chapters that were moved and one of them was Bran. I could be mistaken though

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Why do some people still think Quentyn is alive? :rolleyes: He will not be a POV in The Winds of Winter.



This is my guess:


Arianne, Theon, Aeron, Victarion, Ser Barristan, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya,


Jaime, Daenerys (GRRM said we will be seeing Jaime and he was writing about the Dothraki),


Cersei (no one except her in King's Landing and we need her POV to see her and Margaery's trials),


Bran (he is one of the principal characters and I'd expect he will have at least a few chapters)


that leaves one spot for Jon Snow if he's going to have a POV.



Also, a character could die and another could "resume his place" - start having chapters after the first character's death - there would still be 13 POVs.


Brienne could be easily dropped, we have Jaime with her now; Asha is with Theon, no need for her; Jon Connington is at the Storm's End and Arianne is going there; not sure about Davos, Samwell and Melisandre, their situation could be solved with deaths of other characters and them stepping in their places. (Barristan and Victarion could die, for example, and Davos and Sam would replace them; Melisandre could have a chapter or two to update us on the things happening at the Wall and when Jon returns there would not be any further need for her POV.) What do you think?



Another option is that GRRM just made a mistake. :D


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Why do some people still think Quentyn is alive? :rolleyes: He will not be a POV in The Winds of Winter.

This is my guess:

Arianne, Theon, Aeron, Victarion, Ser Barristan, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya,

Jaime, Daenerys (GRRM said we will be seeing Jaime and he was writing about the Dothraki),

Cersei (no one except her in King's Landing and we need her POV to see her and Margaery's trials),

Bran (he is one of the principal characters and I'd expect he will have at least a few chapters)

that leaves one spot for Jon Snow if he's going to have a POV.

Also, a character could die and another could "resume his place" - start having chapters after the first character's death - there would still be 13 POVs.

Brienne could be easily dropped, we have Jaime with her now; Asha is with Theon, no need for her; Jon Connington is at the Storm's End and Arianne is going there; not sure about Davos, Samwell and Melisandre, their situation could be solved with deaths of other characters and them stepping in their places. (Barristan and Victarion could die, for example, and Davos and Sam would replace them; Melisandre could have a chapter or two to update us on the things happening at the Wall and when Jon returns there would not be any further need for her POV.) What do you think?

Another option is that GRRM just made a mistake. :D

Some people believe that Tattered Prince Theory.

Personally I think there is no way.

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But how will we see Storm's End fall, if JonCon doesn't have a POV, and SE fell before Arianne's arrival? That we'd be seeing SE fall was confirmed as well, right?

Perhaps in a one-off, as is usual with prologues. But one-offs don't necessarily count toward any of the known POVs.

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And how is Bran a confirmed POV?

I never said he was a confirmed POV. There are 8 confirmed POVs. Bran is merely one of the six main characters.

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Why do some people still think Quentyn is alive? :rolleyes: He will not be a POV in The Winds of Winter.

Well, I think he is alive, but I think that takes us too far off topic. I agree that he will not be a POV, even if he does appear.

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Also, a character could die and another could "resume his place" - start having chapters after the first character's death - there would still be 13 POVs.

No, it would be 14. POVs occur in sequence, not all at once. That's the nature of POVs.

I agree that the count does not necessarily include "one-offs", though.

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GRRM originally intended to tell the entire story using 8 povs, 2 of whom have now died. Those that still live (counting Jon as alive) are Arya, Sansa, Tyrion, Bran, Dany & Jon Snow. All other characters were introduced for limited and temporary purposes, and presumably their POVs will be eliminated as the threads start to converge, and they begin to show up in the POVs of the main players.

I honestly think the story has gone so far afield of his original treatment that I wouldn't count on that. I doubt he had even conceived of Arianne, Aegon, Brienne, and many more at that point, so I wouldn't count on that.

I think this is right. However, "recurring POVs" is pretty much all the surviving POVs we know about and have been talking about, with the possible exception of Mel, who will of course become a recurring POV if she ever recurs.

I think you could conceivably add some others to that list: Areo and Aeron were both definitely minor POVs with less than two chapters per book. Same for Victarion. Also, Arianne was minor but looks to be stepping up to recurring, with at least 5 chapters so I'm sure she would count towards the 13.

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