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Season 5 Impressions


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For those who’ve been asking, various thing in real life have led to this coming out later than intended… but here it is at last, our early impressions of season 5. As noted at the start, we’ve already provided some views on the first episode, but this covers the three additional episodes that were included in the screener package. It’s a long piece, but in a lot of ways it barely scratches the surface, as there’s a lot of story packed into season 5.

You can find the feature here in our Features page.



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In a way the drastic changes are good because they stop us from being spoiled: especially in Sansa, Brienne and Jaime's case by the sound of it. At a guess the Vale plots will all be dropped and Sansa will be the new FArya. Brienne....god only knows..and Jaime and Bronn in Dorne: well it is a shame as Dorne seems to be horrendously cliched but I suppose there is the chance Bronn dies. That would be a bonus.

However the costumes and sets look tremendous as usual.

Edit: also nice to see that some invented scenes do work as the Stannis and Shireen one is meant to. Can't wait to see that. It reminds me of the talk in Season 1 between Cersei and Robert about the child that died. It showed good character building for the medium of TV, although it sounds like the producers forgot about it if she is back to three children in the prophecy.

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Without spoilers - because you can't give them - I would ask, how would you rank how much each subplot deviates from the "spirit" of the novels?



This is an entirely subjective question.



Moreso because...I personally don't consider cutting Young Griff to be a "major change" you see.



So I guess this is a ranking based on "how much you were offended at how carelessly it seemed to treat the material and didn't seem to understand these characters":



I.e.



1 - The Vale and Sansa (most offensive)


2 - Tyrion - (drastic changes, but you can see how someone would change that due to time constraints)


3 - Stannis at the Wall ( excellently captures the "spirit" of the books even if the scenes have no direct counterpart).


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I probably have only posted here a couple of times since I have been reading the books so I'm not even sure if this will post but I was so upset when I read a review in my local newspaper tonight that I just had to vent where I knew I could find some ardent fans of the book series as well as those of the series. Maybe you already know that this season the series will deviate significantly from the books and this is old news. If so....the moderators can remove my post If it is out of line. Anyway here's the article:

"Game of Thrones" fans used to be divided into two camps: "I've read the books" people and the friends they tormented.

Book readers knew the Red Wedding was coming. They knew that King Joffrey's wine was poisoned and that Sansa Stark would outlive her crazy aunt. They were spoiled and loving it.

Those days are over. Like Jon Snow, we all know nothing.

This season, HBO's mega-medieval fantasy epic takes its countless characters, plentiful plots and terrifying twists so far away from the source material that it can never return. George R.R. Martin's on-paper conclusion to the "Song of Ice and Fire" books, should he ever wrap them up, might arrive at a similar destination, but the TV show is taking an entirely different road to get there.

And if the first four hours of Season 5 are any indication, it's a more compelling, faster-paced and less frustrating journey than fans were treated to in "A Feast for Crows" and "A Dance With Dragons," the novels that line up with the current action in Westeros' winter-is-coming world.

Not everything is turned on its head immediately. There are still those who have greatness thrust upon them, like Jon Snow amid the chaos of the Night's Watch, and those who grasp desperately for power, like Westeros' short-timer queen regent Cersei.

Say what you will about Cersei Lannister Baratheon, she spends Sunday nights giving people things to do. Her orders for Jaime provide the first hints of the source material shakeup: Instead of heading north to deal with the defiant remnants of House Tully, the Kingslayer heads south on a secret, two-man rescue mission with a well-chosen companion.

She's the kind of job creator House Republicans dream about, hiring heads of great houses left and right to fill out her son's advisory council. She even gives the necromancer Qyburn a second job as Master of Whispers.

Her uncle, Kevan Lannister, is having none of her posturing.

"I did not return to the capital to serve as your puppet, to watch you stack the Small Council with sycophants," he lectures her. "I do not recognize your authority."

Cersei keeps her head high during this rebuke, but Margaery Tyrell, slated to marry Cersei's son and take her place as queen, doesn't make it easy for her to save face when they have to cross paths.

"I wish we had some wine for you," Margaery says, sending her posse of teenage ladies-in-waiting into catty titters. "It's a bit early in the day for us."

Burn.

You have to admire the bravado of the young, but mocking this particular mother-in-law seems . . . unwise.

Margaery's brother Loras refuses to be discreet with his boyfriends. As a result, in one of the most dramatic departures from the books, Loras' fate tests Westeros' royal newlyweds and reveals an insidious new power broker in King's Landing.

Power is being consolidated in the North, too, if its most odious leaders get their way.

Ramsay Bolton, now his father's official heir, is still making his point by flaying his enemies. So it's a relief to hear his father, Roose, the Warden of the North, tell him to dial it back.

"The best way to forge a lasting alliance isn't by peeling a man's skin off. The best way is by marriage." Fatherly advice for the ages.

Close by, Littlefinger, who goes by Lord Petyr Baelish more often now that he's the caretaker of Sansa Stark, is itching to play his cards. And lest we forget, he's still a pimp.

Whether Sansa can play the game Littlefinger wants her to, no one knows (once again, this is not in the books). But as much as she has been cast as the victim of House Lannister, she is a Stark. She's Ned Stark's oldest living child, and Littlefinger is there to remind her.

"Stop being a bystander," he tells her. "You loved your family. Avenge them."

So Sansa rides back into Winterfell, the childhood home that has become House Bolton's house of horrors, where flayed bodies hang in the courtyard. When she faces Roose Bolton, architect of the Red Wedding, she smiles warmly, bringing her youthful beauty, sex appeal and good breeding to the fore to hide the boiling hate inside. Like her little sister Arya and the Sand Snakes of Dorne, Sansa is finally picking up her weapons to fight."

My source is the Knoxville News Sentinel. An article entitled by Sara Smith entitled " Games of Thrones' Throws Books Out the Window". I AM NOT A HAPPY FAN!

"

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So who is Jamie's companion to Dorne? Brienne of Tarth or perhaps Ellaria Sand? Since there is no longer a Lady Stoneheart then I suppose we can kiss that storyline goodbye. Do one or the other meet their fate there? Much to ponder on with the "books being thrown out the window"

Bronn

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Here's the thing. So far none of the changes sound outrageous and the ones that people complain about (Sansa) might just turn ot to be similar enough to her journey in books 6 and 7 that I might be tempted to say 'well done' just because it cuts through the Mereeneese knot that were AFFC/ADWD, two books with cliffhangers but no climaxes or aftermath resolution. I can live with the Sand Snakes being less nuanced than anticipated and yet I don't now whether or not they'll get more development in the remaining epsiodes of the season and it's not like they were complicated and very nuanced characters in AFFC to begin with so I hold no grudges there. I actually enjoy not knowing because that means I can't hold the books against the show but then again with AFFC and DWD why would I even want to? I didn't enjoy them a lot and sometimes you can make something better in the adaptation (see American Psycho reference here) and some of the worldbuilding in books 4 and 5 has definitely been a big problem for me because it came at the expense of the story and the pacing of the latter.



The invented material seems to get a lot of praise from reviewers so I'm optimistic. The Brienne/Hound fight was one of the best things the show has done to date, putting men and women on equal footing and it looks like the Wall (i.e. the only place that SHOULD matter to anyone) is finally becoming the most interesting place to visit.



I also have no problem with diving into the past in one epsiode if it means keeping the elemets of the story in. I thought all you guys wanted was to have the show keep as much from the book as possible so there you are. The reason the show is so awkward is because the show is expected to keep in stuff that readers have no idea will even matter by the time book 7 comes around.



But, seeing as this is a more positive reaction than I expected from you guys I'm positive that I'll thoroughly enjoy mself this year because I couldn't care less about fidelity to the books. I just want to watch a good tv show.


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Think they have had to make drastic changes



I actually think they might pull it off well




After Alayne release I can see Sansa changes make sense and will make for good TV



I can see how simplifying Dorne into a straight-out Ellaria and Sand Snakes versus Doran perspective makes sense for TV



I can see how simplifying Slavers Bay into a straight out Unsullied versus Harpy's insurgency makes sense, if $ issues mean there has to be a choice between Battle of Mereen and Battle of Winterfell, Battle of Winterfell is much more preferable and makes sense as a priotity given the higher concentration of central characters



Only idea mooted I don't like is Trystane as Aegon. Aegon is tricky, if legit he takes away from impact of R+L=J which is tricky TV, but as a Blackfyre his character in the books and perhaps the show are excellent IMO,



Plus Varys as a Dany supporter is hard to make sense of if you scratch the surface, similar to reasons why Tyrion went to Tywins chamber etc, there are small things creeping in which undermines the show in terms of intrigue despite it being excellent everywhere else




Ultimately people need to remember what works well in novels is a different rule to what works in TV


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I probably have only posted here a couple of times since I have been reading the books so I'm not even sure if this will post but I was so upset when I read a review in my local newspaper tonight that I just had to vent where I knew I could find some ardent fans of the book series as well as those of the series. Maybe you already know that this season the series will deviate significantly from the books and this is old news. If so....the moderators can remove my post If it is out of line. Anyway here's the article:

"Game of Thrones" fans used to be divided into two camps: "I've read the books" people and the friends they tormented.

Book readers knew the Red Wedding was coming. They knew that King Joffrey's wine was poisoned and that Sansa Stark would outlive her crazy aunt. They were spoiled and loving it.

It's a curious thing.

Season 4 did pretty well cover the narrative of second half of SoS and little pieces of Feast and Dance.

The show had to do a fix-up of Arya's and Brienne's walkabouts , just way too much narrative material for 10 hours.

Feast and Dance contained a vast amount of story to be condensed to one season , but it seems to me, that season 5 is influenced by the putative seven-season-limit.

As the show runners have recently said the story is to wind up landing on the same ending as the books.

Does that mean what we see now is a portent of where characters are headed to land in Winds and Dream?

In Westeros for what we know about season 5 some major divergence for Feast and Dance, but will the final story product land the characters in the proper positions in Winds of Winter?

The Essos story seems more like a condensed and rejiggered story that , looks as of now, lands about with same place as in Dance. Tho from what has been released , prose form , of Winds seems to imply a convergence of a bunch of characters at or in and around Meereen , for season 6, that looks wildly divergent at this point.

Question arises what if now HBO demands , say, 8 seasons? We even now have , by interview, David Benioff 'theorizing' about 7.5 seasons, maybe more. He and Dan didn't talk this way last year.

Of course then HBO had not been floating speculation about extending the show.

If HBO decides quickly enough, season 6 could be structured for a longer story , Cogman just mentioned season 6 had not been written yet.

Questions for the philosophers.

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They did talk that way last year. People forget the NY premiere red carpet where they were asked if it'd be 70 hours, and David basically said "at least 70 hours". So they have been considering the possibility of more for a good while.

I'd guess their ideal number is more than 70 and less than 80, so no surprise that Hibberd -- who has more contact with them than most -- speculates splitting season 7 over two years with additional episodes. They tend to be nice, round numbers, so 74 episodes, 76 episodes... something like that seems increasingly likely.

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They did talk that way last year. People forget the NY premiere red carpet where they were asked if it'd be 70 hours, and David basically said "at least 70 hours". So they have been considering the possibility of more for a good while.

It is intriguing.

Back on March 19 2014:

Game of Thrones author George R.R. Martin says the prospect is being actively discussed.

"It all depends on how long the main series runs," Martin told The Hollywood Reporter on Wednesday following the season-four premiere of the hit HBO series in New York. "Do we run for seven years? Do we run for eight? Do we run for 10? The books get bigger and bigger (in scope). It might need a feature to tie things up, something with a feature budget, like $100 million for two hours. Those dragons get real big, you know."

Or this from Variety March 20 2015 which kind of summarizes a number of statements:

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/game-of-thrones-movie-10-seasons-plan-grrm-hbo-1201452348/

Then recently the Huffington Post , April 11, 2015:

Is the endgame still seven seasons and that's it?

Benioff: We've always said that, but we have to talk to HBO and come to an understanding. There's a temptation to keep going with it because we're still having fun, but you don't want to ruin it by tacking on a couple of extra years.

Weiss: The big thing is, this is a show with a beginning, a middle and an end. We know what the end is, and we're heading toward it now.

Benioff: We're not sure whether it's going to end up being, say, 70 or 75 hours — but it can't be 100 hours. It would start to feel like a bogged-down mess.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/08/game-of-thrones-season-5_n_7026030.html

Yeah , I had not been aware that Benioff had anything but a 'hard' 7 season limit until I read that.

We shall have to see what the audience is for season 5, I am not sure what Pleple and Lombardo's thinking will be if GoT bust records in a big way.

(Or for that matter what Time Warner will think!)

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I have a pretty good idea of which secondary character, that Ran' impression is talking about in KL and what it is about. What I am wondering is, do you think this is a D&D move, or do you think this is an HBO move? In Hollywood this is a very popular theme and subject matter right now. Think Imitation game (great movie by the way). HBO has a long history itself of addressing this subject matter and lining many of it's shows with this social commentary. I do not begrudge them that, I only want the same thing I want from any show or book, and that is I want it to feel like a natural part of the story, not abrupt or forced. Because when you sort force things into a story that don't fit it becomes more a token nod or a cliche example, rather than having a natural flow to it.

I am pretty sure the certain character is a Tyrell. I understand D&D and HBO may feel a certain responsibility to add this, though I would hope it's not just to boost the demographic. But if you are going to address something like that, it should flow from the story over time and build naturally, not just be some token nod. I know there have been some hints with comments by Joff and I think Jaime, but really not much, and the stereo typical fashion in which Loras and Renly got handled does not give me a lot of hope. Movies like the Dallas Buyers club and the Imitation game were based off historical examples of this subject and had a natural honesty to them and a natural flow and progression. ASOIAF is not really about this subject matter, and just tossing it in there may feel like a generic tip of the cap that lacks depth and emotion. Yeah we touched on the subject, so we did are do diligence. And to be honest the portral of homosexuality in ASOIAF has been cliche and formulaic at best. Eeeeeek my own blood, and gosh I loved Renly so much and miss him soooo... oh man hot got must have sex, Renly who?

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I think the changes were absolutely necessary, and won't go further than that.



The good thing is that the season is getting stellar reviews so far. They have 100% positive on Rotten Tomatoes, and 91% positive on Metacritic. I don't fully trust reviews, but obviously it's better to get such reviews than not.


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As someone who has seen all 4 episodes released thus far, all I can say is (even as a longtime fan of the books), I understand the shortcuts that are being taken, and moreso (much to my surprise), I actually am excited to see them unfold on screen. I was shocked by a couple of them, as I hadn't seen any previews for this season.

I am completely with Ran on the one glaring Chekov's gun that the season has shown this far, and my feelings on it mirror his.

I do understand that this show can't cast the books exactly as is; with that said, I am still rather sad that, at least for this season, it looks like an entire portion of Westeros has been sidelined; I am optimistic that it will be brought back to play maybe next season.

All things said, the production values are top notch, and the two stories I'm enjoying the most are Jon's at the Wall (much to my surprise again, as his chapters in ADWD were somewhat tedious for me to get through), and Dany's (again, much to my surprise). I truly think that condensing the (sometimes) rambling arcs that these two have slogged through is making for compelling TV.

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