R+L=J v.139

[MtnLion]

Last post, first page. Shiny!

Carp, it is not so. Someone ninja'd me!

[MtnLion]

I'm still waiting for textual confirmation that Jon is a Targaryen.

Take a look at the tower of joy, in my signature. Read the first post of the thread.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I'm still waiting for textual confirmation that Jon is a Targaryen.

Take a look at the tower of joy, in my signature. Read the first post of the thread.

Or for an unrelated work, no Tower of Joy nor kingsguard, but same conclusion.

[MtnLion]

LV,

There is a world of difference between textual evidence and textual confirmation. Tyrion murdering Tywin has been confirmed in the text and is thus not at all analogous to the question of Jon being a legitimate Targ. There is quite a bit of textual evidence pointing towards Jon being legitmate, however, the different interpretations of this evidence is why that is still a matter of debate.

No, truly, all we get are Points of View. Do we know for certain that Tyrion didn't dream about killing Tywin? No. Is it confirmed that Eddard is a Stark? Is it confirmed that Robert is a Baratheon? Noting is absolute with this style of writing. We must form our own opinion of what is true and what is not true. Jon was likely born of Lyanna at the tower of joy, and Rhaegar is the likely father of Jon. Knowing the characters of Lyanna and Rhaegar it only makes sense that Rhaegar would honor Lyanna with, and that Lyanna would insist on a wedding. Further the Kingsguard behavior from Ned's dreams is a strong indicator that Jon was the surviving heir to the throne. You know my position well enough that you know that any attempt to influence it will be fruitless.

[Ygrain]

I had to look up "malarkey".

Thanks for sparing the rest of us the effort :-)

[Consigliere]

Yeah, well, okay, then we still lack confirmation or proof that he is Rhaegar's legitimate son. Else there wouldn't be a debate on this topic at all.

Way to go stating the obvious.

[RumHam]

You know my position well enough that you know that any attempt to influence it will be fruitless.

That's not really something you should be proud of.

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

Oh, look. You still seem to think that I care about impressing you.

Guess what? I don't. I don't care if you think that I'm avoiding the debate or not. The other people in this thread know full well what I think and I have nothing to prove. I simply have no interest in anything you have to say. So don't expect further replies from me on the subject.

:lmao:

You need to chill out.

[sj4iy]

That's not really something you should be proud of.

The same can be said of everyone in this thread- yourself and myself included.

Why? Because we have no new information. We are working off the same information that we've had since 2011. It's 2015. Nothing has happened since then to change our stances on the subject. Until we get a new book or the show reveals something big, then all of us are pretty much stuck in the same POV we've had for the past few years.

But none of us can be said to be 'completely open-minded' to new ideas right now because frankly- nothing is new at this point. I agree with MtnLion- rehashing the same argument over and over again gets old. There's a saying about it, actually - "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." That's what we're doing right now. Driving each other insane with the same arguments and expecting others to agree with us.

So until something new happens either in the books or show, I don't expect any of us to change our stances.

[MtnLion]

That's not really something you should be proud of.

And, honestly, how has your opinion changed in the face of the overwhelming evidence presented for you? I do appreciate that you are now stooping to attempts at insulting me. ;)

[Lord Varys]

Actually, we got a lot of news stuff last autumn, didn't we not?

[RumHam]

The same can be said of everyone in this thread- yourself and myself included.

Why? Because we have no new information. We are working off the same information that we've had since 2011. It's 2015. Nothing has happened since then to change our stances on the subject. Until we get a new book or the show reveals something big, then all of us are pretty much stuck in the same POV we've had for the past few years.

But none of us can be said to be 'completely open-minded' to new ideas right now because frankly- nothing is new at this point. I agree with MtnLion- rehashing the same argument over and over again gets old. There's a saying about it, actually - "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." That's what we're doing right now. Driving each other insane with the same arguments and expecting others to agree with us.

So until something new happens either in the books or show, I don't expect any of us to change our stances.

I know we're all entrenched in our beliefs to a degree. In fact I pointed that out in the last thread defending you. But I don't think you should ever reach the point where you're totally dogmatic about it and acknowledging that nothing could ever change your mind. For the record I've said many times that I think there's a good possibility they did get married.

And, honestly, how has your opinion changed in the face of the overwhelming evidence presented for you? I do appreciate that you are now stooping to attempts at insulting me. ;)

I don't find all of your "overwhelming evidence" entirely sound or convincing. However I don't close the door on the possibility that one day you might show up with some proof. I really wasn't trying to insult you. Just suggesting that you might wanna keep a more open mind.

[BearQueen87]

Actually, we got a lot of news stuff last autumn, didn't we not?

Yes we did. However it only solidified everyone's current opinions, for the most part. Those of us on #TeamProtect (or whatever the hell we want to call Legit Jon nowadays...I still like my funny hashtags) became even more convinced and those on the opposite #TeamObey (or UnLegit Jon) became equally convinced that they were still right.

[RumHam]

Yes we did. However it only solidified everyone's current opinions, for the most part. Those of us on #TeamProtect (or whatever the hell we want to call Legit Jon nowadays...I still like my funny hashtags) became even more convinced and those on the opposite #TeamObey (or UnLegit Jon) became equally convinced that they were still right.

That's not entirely true. It was info from the worldbook that got me to rethink the likelihood that polygamy would still be tolerated in the Seven Kingdoms. Before that I had never second guessed the idea that the Kingsguard's presence suggested they considered Jon their king. Then the more I thought about it the less sure I was about the idea.

[BearQueen87]

That's not entirely true. It was info from the worldbook that got me to rethink the likelihood that polygamy would still be tolerated in the Seven Kingdoms. Before that I had never second guessed the idea that the Kingsguard's presence suggested they considered Jon their king. Then the more I thought about it the less sure I was about the idea.

Hence the "for the most part" in my above....

But 9 times out of 10, those of us with our minds made up about certain things stayed certain about those things.

[sj4iy]

I know we're all entrenched in our beliefs to a degree. In fact I pointed that out in the last thread defending you. But I don't think you should ever reach the point where you're totally dogmatic about it and acknowledging that nothing could ever change your mind. For the record I've said many times that I think there's a good possibility they did get married.

I know that you did...I'm not blaming anyone. I'm simply pointing out that it's not so much that we are dogmatic...it's more that we have nothing else to go on at this point to change our views.

Now, if new information came about and people still refused to budge on their views, then I would say it's dogma.

[Mithras]

A quick question: Why should the attendance of Aerys to Harrenhal tourney prevent the suspected plot to dethrone him?

No doubt His Grace reasoned that his enemies would not dare conspire against him under his very nose. Grand Maester Pycelle tells us that Aerys hoped that his presence at such a grand event would help him win back the love of his people.

If that was indeed the king’s intent, it was a grievous miscalculation . Whilst his attendance made the Harrenhal tourney even grander and more prestigious than it already was, drawing lords and knights from every corner of the realm, many of those who came were shocked and appalled when they saw what had become of their monarch.

Seeing what ruin of a man he has become, the Lords should have been more willing to dethrone him. Why did Rhaegar not broach the subject?

[BearQueen87]

A quick question: Why should the attendance of Aerys to Harrenhal tourney prevent the suspected plot to dethrone him?

No doubt His Grace reasoned that his enemies would not dare conspire against him under his very nose. Grand Maester Pycelle tells us that Aerys hoped that his presence at such a grand event would help him win back the love of his people.

If that was indeed the king’s intent, it was a grievous miscalculation . Whilst his attendance made the Harrenhal tourney even grander and more prestigious than it already was, drawing lords and knights from every corner of the realm, many of those who came were shocked and appalled when they saw what had become of their monarch.

Seeing what ruin of a man he has become, the Lords should have been more willing to dethrone him. Why did Rhaegar not broach the subject?

Fear? Trying to undermine the king with the king himself being leagues away is one thing, but trying to undermine the king and get his lords to turn on him while the king is literally right there...that's another thing. Men more willingly take up a cause when the fear of losing their heads isn't joining them for their nightly supper.

Also I strongly suspect that Varys/Aerys was having Rhaegar followed almost round the clock at HH to prevent R from covertly speaking to the lords in attendance.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I must be in a mood of nostalgia as I recently made >2000 posts. Anyway, to add to the current meta discussion:

My lowly self is only an egg, compared to thee my fellow disputers. I have only joined the forum but 2 years ago, and started following this thread probably no earlier than v.42 and had my first post in v.66.

Since then I have learned quite a lot as maybe @MtnLion may remember. My understanding of R+L=J has changed much, I have witnessed findings in the books that I believe had not been spotted before (at least in the threads I followed) and enriched my understanding.

I have noticed explanations and discussions that seem have a circlic nature and I have seen lots of controversy that does not seem easily resolved. Also lots of unnecessary troll-feeding.
Anyway, even though some instances of the thread seemed to contain little or nothigh new at all, most of them have shed some new light on the old book, so to say, and brought up pearls of new insights.

The running in circles is not what we should be focusing on, neither the need to convince everyone of one or two or three specific "truths" or ideas. It find it rather beneficial to have a number of regulars with rather different mindsets and viewpoints and understanding, otherwise there'd be no sense in discussion or just no discussion at all.

Finding someone else's argumentation flawed or all wrong should be ok, as long as it isn't mine you are talking about. Just kidding. Especially mine, if I am in the wrong. Still, out there in theory land, it should be a challenge to point out in which way mine or anybody else's idea is flawed. If it seems just too tiring, tedious or too boring, allow some other regular to answer it and leave it to them. Don't write with a worn-out or annoyed attitude.

And when you do answer, don't worry if your point of view or advice is not immediately followed -- or strongly contested. The other one might, maybe, have a point that you did not yet get, too.

I am reading all that's posted in good faith, and I understand, so do others, so your post's are read by real people. We read all the stupid parts, too ;) Keep that in mind. Please stay civil and nice, if you can afford to do so, and carry on. Everyone should be entitled to believe Jon is either a Martian or actually the real Aegon VI and/or the legitimate heir to the IT. But most probably he seems to be the son of Rhaegar T. and Lyanna S.

I like to read your arguments and your train of thoughts, and those of others who contest all the above. Jon and Jon's parentage are undoubtedly important. Ned's self-censored speech and thoughts and dreams must have some important reason and are worth thinking about. Combining that looks pretty fruitful.

Other repetitions of details and patterns of speech and wordings may mean nothing or everything, they may be waiting to be brought to light and be accepted or rejected in one context or another. Let's keep it going and let's continue having great fun.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

A quick question: Why should the attendance of Aerys to Harrenhal tourney prevent the suspected plot to dethrone him?

No doubt His Grace reasoned that his enemies would not dare conspire against him under his very nose. Grand Maester Pycelle tells us that Aerys hoped that his presence at such a grand event would help him win back the love of his people.

If that was indeed the king’s intent, it was a grievous miscalculation . Whilst his attendance made the Harrenhal tourney even grander and more prestigious than it already was, drawing lords and knights from every corner of the realm, many of those who came were shocked and appalled when they saw what had become of their monarch.

Seeing what ruin of a man he has become, the Lords should have been more willing to dethrone him. Why did Rhaegar not broach the subject?

Some might consider it difficult to discuss dethroning a king while the king is in the next room, with all of his KG and his small council present..