R+L=J v.139

[ThePromiseThatWasAPrince]

There is no textual evidence that Jon Snow is a Targaryen (i.e. born in a 'valid and legitimate polygamous marriage'). I also expect a confirmation of his real heritage in TWoW but whether the whole mystery will be unraveled there I'm not so sure. Perhaps we'll only get confirmation that he has Targaryen blood?

The idea that Jon Snow would be recognized as a Stark by the North because of, well, 'reasons' also makes no sense. Plenty of other Stark bastards in history also died as Stark bastards so I see no reason why the same should not happen to Jon Snow.

Only kings can legitimize bastards, and Robb Stark most likely recognized his half-brother Jon Snow, son of the late Lord Eddard Stark, not Jon Snow, parents unknown or, 'my dear cousin, whose mother was my late aunt, the Lady Lyanna Stark'. Thus Robb's legitimization does most likely not apply to Lyanna's son - and has no teeth now, anyway, as Ned Stark's bastard cannot leave the Night's Watch, and it is thus completely irrelevant if people consider him bastard-born or legitimate. There is no King in the North who can force the NW to release Jon Snow from his vows - not that he would want to leave, anyway.

This may or may not be true. Jon SNOW said the vows, and may have been killed at the end of ADWD. Death releases them from that vow. Therefore, if he is given new life, and comes to realize his Targaryen blood, and is legitimate to boot, it throws everything you just said out the window. But like you said, confirmation may just be a book away.

[markg171]

Fear? Trying to undermine the king with the king himself being leagues away is one thing, but trying to undermine the king and get his lords to turn on him while the king is literally right there...that's another thing. Men more willingly take up a cause when the fear of losing their heads isn't joining them for their nightly supper.

Also I strongly suspect that Varys/Aerys was having Rhaegar followed almost round the clock at HH to prevent R from covertly speaking to the lords in attendance.

Maybe Rhaegar didn't need to meet with the lords in attendance.Let's examine who he competed against:

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion’s crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Prince Rhaegar emerged as the ultimate victor at the end of the competition. The crown prince, who did not normally compete in tourneys, surprised all by donning his armor and defeating every foe he faced, including four knights of the Kingsguard. In the final tilt, he unhorsed Ser Barristan Selmy, generally regarded as the finest lance in all the Seven Kingdoms, to win the champion’s laurels.

Mayhaps Rhaegar's message is sent in his choice in opponents:

Brandon Stark - I have defeated Brandon Stark, the greatest jouster in the North and therefore would defeat the North

Bronze Yohn Royce - I have defeated Bronze Yohn Royce, the greatest jouster in the Vale and therefore would defeat the Vale

Arthur Dayne - I have defeated Arthur Dayne, the greatest jouster in Dorne and would therefore defeat Dorne

Crowning Lyanna over Elia - I have crowned Robert's betrothed and therefore defeated him, the greatest fighter in the Stormlands and would therefore defeat the Stormlands

Three other Kingsguard - I have defeated my father's guard and will therefore defeat him

At the very least, it's extremely odd that he competed against 4 Kingsguard. 2 would be understandable as someone had to beat Whent to claim his champion's crown so Rhaegar being the one to do that is one thing as the two jousters in the finals would be the last two champions standing so Rhaegar needed a champion's crown to be in the final, and obviously he had to beat Barristan as Barristan was the other champion in the final... but other than that, without further detail of course of how the tournament played out, there's no other Kingsguard that Rhaegar "needed" to beat... Just Whent and Barristan.

So the fact that he competed against others, in light of Barristan saying that Rhaegar was scheming something with the Kingsguard at Harrenhal and he seemingly didn't have to face them, makes sense only if he specifically sought them out for what they stood for, so why wouldn't the other opponents he fought also be part of some scheme where who they were and represented is depicting something deeper than a simple win in a tourney?

[Alia of the knife]

Going back to this topic and nostalgia, I like the notion of critical analysis as opposed to "Orwellian," lock-step analysis and circling the wagons around a pet character.

I like Lyanna as this isn't just a Rhaegar thread, but am prepared to be possibly surprised by her actions.

But it's hard to have these discussions without questioning Rhaegars motivations even if that analysis goes into unflattering territory, which inevitably leads to being called anti-Rhaegar when that isn't the case at all.

That is the only when it gets tiresome to me.

[Lord Varys]

Nostalgia stuff:

I figured the whole thing out during my first read back in '05 long before I discovered any forums. Not all by myself but with the help of people who suggested the book series to me. The Jon Snow question is essentially a trivial thing, there are much more interesting, compelling, mysterious riddles to this whole thing.

But with the TPatQ and TRP sort of invalidating the assumption that the Targaryens continued to practice polygamy until the Dance as well as ADwD flat out stating that the Kingsguard has already protected royal bastards and mistresses things got more ambiguous again. And conveniently we don't even know how many KGs Aegon the Unworthy assigned to his bastards - who said that it weren't three or even four...?

Those uncertainties make discussing interesting. Reinforcing and reinforcing predetermined conclusions is not what I'd like to do. I'm not even completely dead-set on the question whether the old eunuch is a good a or bad guy ;-).

If I understand the underlying agendas in the thread correctly a lot of people argue in a certain direction to reinforce their own expectations about the future - i.e. whether or not Jon Snow is the promised prince, the rightful king who should (and eventually will) sit on the Iron Throne etc. My personally bias in all that is that I'm in the girl's camp. I want Dany to win because it would really be great to have one uncontested female ruler in this dreadful sexist world George has created. Daenerys is really an interesting creation as a female hero/savior kind of figure that is rare in fantasy or mythical literature. Jon Snow is mostly the tedious 'hidden king' trope and while Dany's plot armor comes in the guise of magic and destiny (which I find rather alluring due to my personal tastes) Jon tended to have too much luck (until ADwD).

The savior question is too complex to be reduced to 'one hero and a bunch of fakes' or 'one main hero and two assistants'. It is more likely that there are three heroes destined to resolve the coming crises together - possibly even in unison after they have finally meet. And those three heroes are most likely Daenerys Targaryen, Jon Snow, and Tyrion Hill.

But should Jon ever sit the Iron Throne I really find the sort of fairy-tale people are spinning for him - like 'he has to be of legitimate birth', 'he must be the promised prince' etc. It would be much more fitting if he actually had to earn this place. He could be legitimized by a Targaryen monarch (Aegon, Dany, Tyrion etc.) and chosen as heir/next in line to the throne. The whole second half of the series will have Targaryens all over the place - the obvious ones (Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Aegon, Bloodraven) - and the truly hidden ones (Melisandre, Quaithe, Varys, Illyrio, possibly Marwyn the Mage - through Rhaena Targaryen -, and, even Brown Ben Plumm, Teora Toland, and my secret hero Rennifer Longwaters). It should not come as a surprise when Daenerys/Tyrion eventually try to stabilize the dynasty and ensure its survival by legitimizing bastards. Tyrion himself may also be legitimized as Tyrion Targaryen (or my preference: Tyrion Truefyre).

I, personally, tend to respect his vows and hope he's not getting a convenient cop-out like 'I once died, hence all I swore before I died is null and void'. It may be that the series ends with the NW being disbanded - and then he may be able become king if he wanted to - but until such time the discussion of those issues is pretty much pointless. It is also not impossible that all things may end up bleed together in one big polygamous-incestuous get-together (Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Sansa etc.).

Depending what happens to Bran and Rickon - Bran is most likely never leaving that cave in the flesh, and Rickon may yet die - Jon may also eventually become Lord of Winterfell as Arya's husband (if Sansa ends up as the spouse of some powerful Lord/King or dies).

[Mithras]

Fear? Trying to undermine the king with the king himself being leagues away is one thing, but trying to undermine the king and get his lords to turn on him while the king is literally right there...that's another thing. Men more willingly take up a cause when the fear of losing their heads isn't joining them for their nightly supper.

Also I strongly suspect that Varys/Aerys was having Rhaegar followed almost round the clock at HH to prevent R from covertly speaking to the lords in attendance.

I don't think it matters. In fact, as I proposed, Aerys’ presence and his train wreck state could have provided the chance to persuade the Lords like nothing else. Even if Aerys did not come, Varys would still have lots of spies around, and some lickspittle lords would attend the tourney as well. So, being spied on should not be an issue. Hell, Aerys was already getting reports on Rhaegar and the moment the tourney was declared, Aerys immediately suspected a plot by Rhaegar and Tywin. I don’t think why Rhaegar did not proceed with the plan makes sense under the given circumstances.

Perhaps Rhaegar had a prophetic dream during the tourney (maybe induced by BR or the green men) which made him disregard his plans to dethrone Aerys. Especially after uncovering the identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Rhaegar should have dedicated himself to dreams and prophecies once again until he spoke to Jaime about the “changes” he meant to make in KL.

Or perhaps Rhaegar did not have the intention to use the tourney as a shadow Great Council. The whole thing was organized by Tywin in order to have his revenge for years of humiliation by Aerys. After all, he could have guessed that Aerys would want to attend the tourney himself and exposing his true self to all the Lords would be the ultimate humiliation of Aerys, which happened exactly like this.

Or it was the combination of both scenarios. There was a plot to dethrone Aerys and Tywin wanted to pay his debts to Aerys.

[Lord Varys]

Nothing suggests that Varys even was at Harrenhal. Sure, he could have been, but as of yet nobody has mentioned him there and we have quite a lot of recollections and reports on the tourney by now. This is strange.

It is also clear why Rhaegar didn't proceed with his idea after Aerys tagged along. The tourney was supposed to be a front, and when the Lords had assembled Rhaegar would proclaim and open the Great Council and preside over the debates. Without Aerys there it would have been turned into a Great Council - but Rhaegar could not possibly try to do the same with his father being present. Talking informally about royal madness and stuff isn't going achieve anything at all.

Oh, and by the way:

I say Lord Hightower was the shadow host. He had the necessary coin, he most likely was there, and he had, well, reasons...

[Mithras]

BR used the comic dwarves as his agents in the Mystery Knight. He was also present too under a disguise. Varys might have been the next begging brother at Harrenhal.

If Aerys was not present, how could Rhaegar convince the Lords that his father was beyond repair? Most of the people were shocked to see what they saw.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

If Aerys was not present, how could Rhaegar convince the Lords that his father was beyond repair?

With the right kind of protest song and the right memorable tune on his electric high harp?

[Mithras]

With the right kind of protest song and the right memorable tune on his electric high harp?

Oh god, why did this make me recall this?

Disaster Area

A plutonium rock band from the Gagrakacka Mind Zones, they are generally held to be not only the loudest rock band in the Galaxy, but in fact the loudest noise of any kind at all. Regular concert goers judge that the best sound balance is usually to be heard from within large concrete bunkers some thirty-seven miles from the stage, while the musicians themselves play their instruments by remote control from within a heavily insulated spaceship which stays in orbit around the planet – or more frequently around a completely different planet. Their songs are on the whole very simple and mostly follow the familiar theme of boy-being meets girl-being beneath a silvery moon, which then explodes for no adequately explored reason. Many worlds have now banned their act altogether, sometimes for artistic reasons, but most commonly because the band’s public address system contravenes local strategic arms limitations treaties. This has not, however, stopped their earnings from pushing back the boundaries of pure hypermathematics, and their chief research accountant has recently been appointed Professor of Neomathematics at the University of Maximegalon, in recognition of both his General and Specific Theories of Disaster Area Tax Returns, in which he proves that the whole fabric of the space-time continuum is not merely curved, it is in fact totally bent.

Disaster Area’s frontman, Hotblack Desiato, an old friend of Ford Prefect’s, is spending a year dead for tax reasons.

[BearQueen87]

It is also clear why Rhaegar didn't proceed with his idea after Aerys tagged along. The tourney was supposed to be a front, and when the Lords had assembled Rhaegar would proclaim and open the Great Council and preside over the debates. Without Aerys there it would have been turned into a Great Council - but Rhaegar could not possibly try to do the same with his father being present. Talking informally about royal madness and stuff isn't going achieve anything at all.

Yes I agree with this. The second Aerys shows up, you can't really call a Great Council or persuade the Lords to take part in one...not with the King right there. The men of the realm might be shocked at how far their King has fallen, mentally, but after Aerys's display of seeking out the KotLT because "he is my enemy" would you really want to declare a GC right then and there knowing that, if your side lost, you'd probably be fed to the flames.

In order to call a GC, you'd have to trust in all the other lords present to vote your way (appointing Rhaegar as king) and...trusting other lords of Westeros is not exactly something these people do on a daily basis.

[RumHam]

Note to sj4iy and others looking to avoid show spoilers, it might be time to abandon the internet. The first four episodes of the new season have leaked online.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Note to sj4iy and others looking to avoid show spoilers, it might be time to abandon the internet. The first four episodes of the new season have leaked online.

So I've heard. But although I've been online for a while today, they did not come my way ;)

[Ser Creighton]

Note to sj4iy and others looking to avoid show spoilers, it might be time to abandon the internet. The first four episodes of the new season have leaked online.

What? Oh gosh, not that, well I sure haven't watched them, I'm a good boy and would never think of doing such a thing. Ever... Really... Ok I didn't, but I could of if I wanted too.

[Alia of the knife]

In terms of the secret backer, I wonder if such a tournament might be devised to draw possible traitors out?

If we go with Varys and his possible Blackfyre connections, could Illyrio have been the secret money?

[Danilo Sanches]

I have watched the 4 episodes that have been leaked. All i will say is this : R+L=J fans will be happy

[Jon Weirgaryen]

eta: Welcome to R+L=J, @Danilo Sanches!

I have watched the 4 episodes that have been leaked. All i will say is this : R+L=J fans will be happy

As a non-show-watcher I have been happy all the while. But good to know the show watchers might stop telling me I am the odd one out. Where to get a R+L=J t-shirt to wear it the next couple of days?

[Alia of the knife]

I have watched the 4 episodes that have been leaked. All i will say is this : R+L=J fans will be happy

Love it!

I don't mind spoilers if you have any links, you can PM me so Ser Creighton doesn't bust my chops. :)

[Ser Creighton]

Love it!

I don't mind spoilers if you have any links, you can PM me so Ser Creighton doesn't bust my chops. :)

I wouldn't worry about me, season 5 leaked spoiler and pirated episodes are strictly taboo on this site. Ran put the word out this morning, "we don't pirate" So whatever you do keep it on the down low, I don't want you getting in trouble. Me I can wait, waited 5 years for Dance and 4 and counting for winds, 3 months isn't going to change anything in my world. It's a few hours till episode 1 and I am all good.

"Discussion of leaks and, especially, discussion of where one might find them, is certainly a ban-worthy offense. We don't support piracy around here, folks."

[Danilo Sanches]

Love it!

I don't mind spoilers if you have any links, you can PM me so Ser Creighton doesn't bust my chops.

I'm sorry , i'm kinda new in here and have no idea what PM means , but i would be happy to oblige if you really wanted some spoliers if there's a way to do it without breaking the rules of the forum. Just let me know how to do it and not spoiler it for everyone else.

[Alia of the knife]

I'm sorry , i'm kinda new in here and have no idea what PM means , but i would be happy to oblige if you really wanted some spoliers if there's a way to do it without breaking the rules of the forum. Just let me know how to do it and not spoiler it for everyone else.

Oh sorry, :) Private message me.