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R+L=J v.139


BearQueen87

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That comes from the 20/20 hindsight of the readers. A leader who is trying to unite the NW to repel the incoming invasion is not going to show favoritism to his friends as that will divide the brotherhood even more. There is the idea of keeping your enemies within your sight. Allowing them to stage dissension elsewhere was not something a leader would want.

Jon's issue was that he underestimated the extent that these men would betray him. A Julius Caesar type assassination was not a possibility he had considered. Speaking of which, has anyone else reviewed the similarity between the two assassinations? I guess it doesn't work because Jon isn't going to die.

Pretty much this. TBF, I couldn't have imagined Bowen Marsh capable of stabbing his LC to death because that means his own life would be immediately forfeit.

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Jon is far from being a logical character, capable of the kind of reason that most would identify with a person of intelligence... A prime example is when he interrogates Gilly about Craster's sacrifices... Jon not only asked incredibly bad questions, but also jumped to conclusions that made no sense at all.

And Rhaegar knighted the Mountain? I'd say that was a big miss.

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And Rhaegar knighted the Mountain? I'd say that was a big miss.

Doran is supposed to be brilliant. Yet he knows about what his daughter is doing and doesn't stop her. Seems pretty dumb to me.

Mance is supposed to be a great general, yet doesn't use a pincer movement with forces both north and south of the wall which would have crushed CB easily, nor does he start attacking all along the Wall with his GREATLY superior forces, instead sending a few at a time in one place. Really dumb.

Basically, all of the intellectual characters in this story make really, really stupid mistakes. Including Jon and Rhaegar. But that doesn't make Jon "not as smart" as his father.

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Mance is supposed to be a great general

How much experience does Mance have leading armies against fortified structures?

But that doesn't make Jon "not as smart" as his father.

It just makes him "not smart"

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Arguing that a character is not smart because the character makes dumb moves is not a strong argument for two basic reasons:



(1) As sj4iy points out fairly well, intelligent characters makes dumb mistakes in this series all the time. By that standard, no intelligence characters exist.



(2) More important is that GRRM needs his characters to make dumb mistakes. Otherwise, the plot cannot develop in the way he needs it to develop. Regarding Jon, having Jon stabbed and die/almost die (whatever -- the purposes of this post is not to argue what actually is going to happen to Jon in the next book) is critical to the plot. So no matter how else Jon may be described, GRRM needed Jon to make a crucial error in order to end up in this situation. That error should not be regarded as indicative of Jon's general abilities. And I think Avalatis makes a great point that it is no clear Jon made a "dumb" mistake looking from the information he had at the time. Only in hindsight was the move clearly flawed. Given the information Jon had, it is not clear that the moves he made would have seemed to be the best moves to the most brilliant tactician in the world. No one is capable of protecting against all possibilities.


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Only in hindsight was the move clearly flawed. Given the information Jon had, it is not clear that the moves he made would have seemed to be the best moves to the most brilliant tactician in the world. No one is capable of protecting against all possibilities.

This. The reason we study history of warfare, is to learn the mistakes that were made. Or, more importantly, how a vulnerability was exploited. Before the Bowen stab movement, I would not have calculated that Marsh was capable.
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I don't think that the reader should overlook certain in-story events saying "oh, the author just made that happen for the plot, not to make Jon look stupid"...

I agree that the reader "should" not have to overlook plot-driven behavior -- but unfortunately, sometimes readers do if readers really want to understand what the author is communicating. An author, even GRRM, may try to build up a character with certain traits, but for plot reasons, the character needs to deviate momentarily in order for a critical plot development to happen. While a reader is free to form whatever conclusions the reader wants (and become frustrated that such a deviation occurred), the author typically hopes that the reader will overlook the "out of character" behavior and not change the view of that character's essential personality traits but understand the need to deviate for plot purposes. Such accommodations are the nature of reading fiction.

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I don't think that the reader should overlook certain in-story events saying "oh, the author just made that happen for the plot, not to make Jon look stupid"...

Characters must make mistakes in order for the story to be interesting, even intelligent characters. If they're right all the time and they predict everything the story can be fairly boring. A good writer is going to use these mistakes to advanced the plot in the direction he/she wants it to. Claiming that because a character made a mistake and paid the price for it makes them stupid; is not very convincing.

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Guys Guys Guys, I think I have some intresting news. Now this has zero to do with any leaked information from the show I promise you, I just polished the old bean off and put it to work connecting dots.

Super Crazy Book Show spoilers reguarding Rhaegar' hidden son Griff. JCRB is going to be so happy.

Now many people think you Griff has not been cast for the hit tv show Game of Thrones, but I beg to differ. I believe Rhaegar' hidden son has actually been cast as Jon snow, now he does not look like Young Griff. He is played by an actor named Kit Harrington who has dark hair and dark eyes. Apperantly he was cast some time ago as an actor named Jon Snow. Clearly that has to be a fake name. Now instead of being raised in Essos by Griff and brought to Dorne, he was raised in Westeros by Ned Stark who was Lyanna' brother. They even gave him this boss dire wolf named Ghost. Now clearly this theory is wrong and not possible, but I think D&D may have heard of it, one of them seems to even be wearing a shit with R+L=J on it. So while the theory is wrong and the story belongs to Young Griff, they seem to have borrowed this theory in order to disguise young Griff so we would not no the truth. Though I do propose a name change for the theory. It should be called R+L= HBO' Young Griff. JCRB is going to be so happy I figured this out. Your welcome JCRB, I bet you totally love HBO now, you should totally put Ned on the hype train instead of that guy with the Red Beard.

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Yeah, it's driving me absolutely nuts. It's bad enough search is disabled, but I can't stand writing out a reply only to get a 503 error page. I've actually taken to copying my entire reply before I hit post jic that happens, because I hate losing my work.

Also, love your new avatar :) I almost didn't recognize you at first XD

I actually debated changing the Avi cause everyone knows me as "Jorah" lol

I'm sure with what is coming for my Bear in S5 it'll change back before long. *prepares for Bear-Pain*

As to the new Avatar -- YES (I tend to find it a little confusing when someone has an avatar with a picture of someone of the other gender like the old one), but I recognized her "voice" immediately so even with the new Avatar, I would know my BQ87 anywhere.

#TeamRhaegarChangedHisMind :)

(my constant hashtaging possibly gives me away...)

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Characters must make mistakes in order for the story to be interesting, even intelligent characters. If they're right all the time and they predict everything the story can be fairly boring. A good writer is going to use these mistakes to advanced the plot in the direction he/she wants it to. Claiming that because a character made a mistake and paid the price for it makes them stupid; is not very convincing.

Agreed. I mean, find me one character in this entire series who never made a dumb mistake.

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Characters must make mistakes in order for the story to be interesting, even intelligent characters. If they're right all the time and they predict everything the story can be fairly boring. A good writer is going to use these mistakes to advanced the plot in the direction he/she wants it to. Claiming that because a character made a mistake and paid the price for it makes them stupid; is not very convincing.

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing... Jon never paid a price for what made me first think he was not smart... when he interrogated gilly...

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Guys Guys Guys, I think I have some intresting news. Now this has zero to do with any leaked information from the show I promise you, I just polished the old bean off and put it to work connecting dots.

Super Crazy Book Show spoilers reguarding Rhaegar' hidden son Griff. JCRB is going to be so happy.

Now many people think you Griff has not been cast for the hit tv show Game of Thrones, but I beg to differ. I believe Rhaegar' hidden son has actually been cast as Jon snow, now he does not look like Young Griff. He is played by an actor named Kit Harrington who has dark hair and dark eyes. Apperantly he was cast some time ago as an actor named Jon Snow. Clearly that has to be a fake name. Now instead of being raised in Essos by Griff and brought to Dorne, he was raised in Westeros by Ned Stark who was Lyanna' brother. They even gave him this boss dire wolf named Ghost. Now clearly this theory is wrong and not possible, but I think D&D may have heard of it, one of them seems to even be wearing a shit with R+L=J on it. So while the theory is wrong and the story belongs to Young Griff, they seem to have borrowed this theory in order to disguise young Griff so we would not no the truth. Though I do propose a name change for the theory. It should be called R+L= HBO' Young Griff. JCRB is going to be so happy I figured this out. Your welcome JCRB, I bet you totally love HBO now, you should totally put Ned on the hype train instead of that guy with the Red Beard.

In Grimm, what do you think about Truble coming back and sleeping with Nick?

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In Grimm, what do you think about Truble coming back and sleeping with Nick?

Hehehehehe, what's Grimm? And I am all cought up on everything.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cADCUxHjv1k

ETA: You know JCRB has just been sick over the absence of her fav favs from the show so I am trying to make her feel better, by making her feel like her favorite characters are part of the show. At the same time some R+L=J fans sometimes worry about who Jon is. So I am also trying to make them feel like Jon matters in some way. I am killing two birds with one stone here, out of the goody goodness of my angelic like heart. 4realz I am.

And I don't watch Grimm so I don't know if you are joking or spoiling, or a spoiling joke, I am sure you are joking but I don't know what it means, you have to use shows I know. I can't watch everything, they expect me to work, by work I mean supervise and by supervise I mean deligate while I sleep under my desk. It's pretty nice under there, I got a little tv, a pillow and sleeping bag. Built a little shelf for my alarm clock so I know when it's time to go home. Got wifi so I can watch all my shows. It's not really a tv it's an ipad. I should probably hang a picture. It can go next to the cup holder.

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Hehehehehe, what's Grimm? And I am all cought up on everything.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cADCUxHjv1k

ETA: You know JCRB has just been sick over the absence of her fav favs from the show so I am trying to make her feel better, by making her feel like her favorite characters are part of the show. At the same time some R+L=J fans sometimes worry about who Jon is. So I am also trying to make them feel like Jon matters in some way. I am killing two birds with one stone here, out of the goody goodness of my angelic like heart. 4realz I am.

And I don't watch Grimm so I don't know if you are joking or spoiling, or a spoiling joke, I am sure you are joking but I don't know what it means, you have to use shows I know. I can't watch everything, they expect me to work, by work I mean supervise and by supervise I mean deligate while I sleep under my desk. It's pretty nice under there, I got a little tv, a pillow and sleeping bag. Built a little shelf for my alarm clock so I know when it's time to go home. Got wifi so I can watch all my shows. It's not really a tv it's an ipad. I should probably hang a picture. It can go next to the cup holder.

Damn, I was sure you watched Grimm, and yes it was a spoilerly joke. 😍

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Damn, I was sure you watched Grimm, and yes it was a spoilerly joke.

I watched I think the first 2 seasons, but lost intrest. I watched some of Sleepy Hollow but lost intrest as well. I have seen some parts of Once upon a time, but only when I am back home, someone I know likes it and I might catch part of it at their place, but I only know a couple parts of it. I spent a lot of time making fun Snow White. Some people get so touchy about their shows, but I still say Kit Harrington is prettier than that person on Once Upon a time. Fairest in the land my ass, isn't even the fairest Snow out their. First Kristen Stewart and now her? Disney is abusing that character in my opinion. Like she was suppose to be more attractive than Theron, I don't think so. Ok I am done.

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