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R+L=J v.139


BearQueen87

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Why exactly does there need to be a Nissa Nissa? Is it stated Azor Ahai Reborn would repeat exactly what he did last time? Unless the lightbringer was destroyed, why can't he use the same weapon?



How can a sword match the power of the others? Perhaps a sword rammed through the Heart of Winter? It does seem a bit direct for Martin.


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Your post seemed to go every which way. Your point was that Ned raised him so obviously many of the traits we see are more likely from Ned. Your other point is we don't really know Rhaegar that well (or even Lyanna for that matter besides Ned's description of "wolf's blood") to make factual statements about Jon being like either of them.

If I recall the comparisons:

1.) Melancholy

2.) Naturally Good at everything

3.) Idealistic?

4.) Duty as you pointed out. Rheagar also failed at this as he ran off with Lyanna.

5.) Was Rhaegar described as single minded? His actions seem to suggest he was not.

I'm sure there are more. But yes considering Rhaegar is a character we have limited information on (same with Lyanna) it is hard to state with certainty that Jon has some of their qualities.

It's all over the place because the invalid comparisons are.

1. Who ever said Jon was melancholic, he has demonstrated a perfectly normal emotional range within the context of his story. Yes he can get depressed or upset, he is under a rather substantial amount of duress.

2. Exactly who said he was good at everything? Rhaegar was not just good at things he was a musical, intellectual and athletic prodigy. At 18 about a year older than Jon he was holding his own against the likes a Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne. He was the most famous Bard in Westeros and was considered an intellectual genius even as a child. Jon is good a riding and decent with sword does not equal that. Just like Jon being better at sums then Robb does not equal being smarter than Tyrion.

3. Idealistic? Ned was a bit idealistic. Depends on your ideals, what are Jons, from the book not head canon.

4. Lots of people fail at their duty it's not hereditary. Though maybe Jon and Yiggy have something in common with Rhaegar. Jon lied too and betrayed her and this led to her death. Jon did pick his duty over her and left her. Thematic yes, hereditary? No.

5. Most people are not single minded, though you would have to know what was on his mind in order to say his actions contradicted that. Do you know what was on his mind?

Only one character in the series has been described as being like Rhaegar and only one has had heavy Rhaegar symbolism. Jon has very much had the symbolism of his mother and house Stark. Which by the way is not a knock, Ned was a good man and it was a good house. Note also how often Jon actually quotes his father, not Rhaegar but Ned.

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2. Exactly who said he was good at everything? Rhaegar was not just good at things he was a musical, intellectual and athletic prodigy. At 18 about a year older than Jon he was holding his own against the likes a Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne. He was the most famous Bard in Westeros and was considered an intellectual genius even as a child. Jon is good a riding and decent with sword does not equal that. Just like Jon being better at sums then Robb does not equal being smarter than Tyrion.

Not necessarily saying Jon would be on that level, but having Ser Rodrik Cassel as your trainer is not the same as having access to Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne as training partners. Just sayin'

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Does the north have knighthood as a tradition?

I thought their fighting style was more hand-to-hand combat and had to go south for knighthood?

Knighthood, no. Armored lances, fighting like Night's, very much yes. Their men participate in the hand's tourney. Robb takes his (large number, not just a couple hundred) horse to Riverrun, and is the bulk of his force.

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New Subject, Jon Snow armored in black Ice.

"Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist." So we all know Ice kind of a concern for Jon what with the Others and all and we some interesting history with the winter kings and people like Serwyn and Star Eyes. So I was thinking about one of the first conversations we see Jon have back at Winterfell.

„You're Ned Stark's bastard, aren't you?“
Jon felt a coldness pass right through him. He pressed his lips together and said nothing.
„Did I offend you?“ Lannister said. „Sorry. Dwarfs don't have to be tactful. Generations of capering fools in motley have won me the right to dress badly and say any damn thing that comes into my head.“ He grinned. „You are the bastard, though.“
„Lord Eddard Stark is my father,“ Jon admitted stiffly.
Lannister studied his face. „Yes,“ he said. „I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers.“
„Half brothers,“ Jon corrected. He was pleased by the dwarf's comment, but he tried not to let it show.
Let me give you some counsel, bastard,“ Lannister said. „Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.

There is of course some naturally good advice here, but is it layered? What is the one thing that is really a danger to hurt everyone? That Starks happen to be heavily associated with as well as Jon's bastard name. Ice to prevent you from being hurt by ice, just like the wall. Maybe he actually will get Ice armor. Probably have to be magical armor like the Others wear. Something I think Serwyn did with his mirror shield.

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It's all over the place because the invalid comparisons are.

1. Who ever said Jon was melancholic, he has demonstrated a perfectly normal emotional range within the context of his story. Yes he can get depressed or upset, he is under a rather substantial amount of duress.

2. Exactly who said he was good at everything? Rhaegar was not just good at things he was a musical, intellectual and athletic prodigy. At 18 about a year older than Jon he was holding his own against the likes a Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne. He was the most famous Bard in Westeros and was considered an intellectual genius even as a child. Jon is good a riding and decent with sword does not equal that. Just like Jon being better at sums then Robb does not equal being smarter than Tyrion.

3. Idealistic? Ned was a bit idealistic. Depends on your ideals, what are Jons, from the book not head canon.

4. Lots of people fail at their duty it's not hereditary. Though maybe Jon and Yiggy have something in common with Rhaegar. Jon lied too and betrayed her and this led to her death. Jon did pick his duty over her and left her. Thematic yes, hereditary? No.

5. Most people are not single minded, though you would have to know what was on his mind in order to say his actions contradicted that. Do you know what was on his mind?

Only one character in the series has been described as being like Rhaegar and only one has had heavy Rhaegar symbolism. Jon has very much had the symbolism of his mother and house Stark. Which by the way is not a knock, Ned was a good man and it was a good house. Note also how often Jon actually quotes his father, not Rhaegar but Ned.

1.) He's a character that broods. Not really an uplifting character. The comedic video you linked recently (I think it was you) was making fun of that aspect of his character. Rhaegar I believe was described as reserved and brooding type. Melancholy might be too strong of a word for either character. But you seem to nitpicking this. We're talking about similarities which is the best you can get from what little we know of Rhaegar.

2.) Rhaegar was good at everything he tried (not everything). You're claiming that because Jon isn't a great Bard that it doesn't equate. Why exactly would a son raised by Ned try music? As far as we've seen whatever focus Jon sets himself to, he excels at. This of course ignores the mistakes both Rhaegar and Jon made that caused them both serious issues. Jon isn't training with Kingsguard nor is he in the center of the 7 Kingsdoms with all the resources that come with that. He is a bastard in the North. I don't believe either him or Robb have been to a tourney. The two find themselves in different circumstances.

3.) I don't have electronic copies of the books that I can search through. Head cannon is the best you're going to get from me. Jon's biggest problem was trying to be perfect (which pissed off a lot of his brothers). This probably falls into the same category of "good at everything he tries". He holds himself to be the perfect son. He holds himself to be the perfect Nightswatch brother (which doesn't live up to his expectations). While this is flimsily "idealistic" it is in the same realm as Rhaegar who might be not 100% idealistic. But both of them seemed to approach this in the same fashion.

4.) The point was that you claimed Jon failed in his duty (as in that disqualifies this as a valid comparison to Rhaegar), but this failure actually lines up fairly well with Rhaegar.

5.) So you didn't answer my question, but asked a question. I stated quite clearly earlier in that post that we have little information about Rhaegar. Removing Aerys, Lyanna, and Prophecy could potentially be all about the same thing. But based on what limited information we have a few of these don't line up and seem to contradict each other. Needless to say it does draw another parallel to Jon.

You have done some amazing analysis regarding symbolism. Though regarding similarities between Dany and Rhaegar I could also nitpick those as you have done here to state they are nothing alike.

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Does the north have knighthood as a tradition?

I thought their fighting style was more hand-to-hand combat and had to go south for knighthood?

Some places do, like White Harbor. Do the Whitehills count? Semi Canon but they follow the faith.

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Not necessarily saying Jon would be on that level, but having Ser Rodrik Cassel as your trainer is not the same as having access to Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne as training partners. Just sayin'

Pretty much my position. Winterfel almost feels like its in the ass end of no where. Not really comparable to the resources of the South and being in Kingslanding surrounded by superb Knights.

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New Subject, Jon Snow armored in black Ice.

"Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist." So we all know Ice kind of a concern for Jon what with the Others and all and we some interesting history with the winter kings and people like Serwyn and Star Eyes. So I was thinking about one of the first conversations we see Jon have back at Winterfell.

„You're Ned Stark's bastard, aren't you?“

Jon felt a coldness pass right through him. He pressed his lips together and said nothing.

„Did I offend you?“ Lannister said. „Sorry. Dwarfs don't have to be tactful. Generations of capering fools in motley have won me the right to dress badly and say any damn thing that comes into my head.“ He grinned. „You are the bastard, though.“

„Lord Eddard Stark is my father,“ Jon admitted stiffly.

Lannister studied his face. „Yes,“ he said. „I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers.“

„Half brothers,“ Jon corrected. He was pleased by the dwarf's comment, but he tried not to let it show.

Let me give you some counsel, bastard,“ Lannister said. „Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.

There is of course some naturally good advice here, but is it layered? What is the one thing that is really a danger to hurt everyone? That Starks happen to be heavily associated with as well as Jon's bastard name. Ice to prevent you from being hurt by ice, just like the wall. Maybe he actually will get Ice armor. Probably have to be magical armor like the Others wear. Something I think Serwyn did with his mirror shield.

Well the others seem to have ice weapons and armor (if I recall correctly). But the touch of these seem to be bad for a human's health. The wall is a magical creation made purely out of ice and seems to be tied to the Stark family bloodline.

Where would Jon get this armor? Interesting idea. It would be pretty amazing if this was layered in meaning like that.

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Jon chapter:

She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything.

That's the one. Cheers!

Jon isn't a Targaryen and he's dead.

Oh my. Do tell us more.

And why were the KG at the TOJ? :devil:

Party.

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Does the north have knighthood as a tradition?

I thought their fighting style was more hand-to-hand combat and had to go south for knighthood?

Nope; GRRM has said that knighthood doesn't really hold in the north because they follow the Old Gods and the Andal stuff never firmly took root.

Isn't Jorah a Knight?

Yes but that done down south after a southron battle by a southron king.

And Jorah is pretty agnostic. Religion doesn't really fit into his pragmatic approach to life so he doesn't particularly care either way.

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There is of course some naturally good advice here, but is it layered? What is the one thing that is really a danger to hurt everyone? That Starks happen to be heavily associated with as well as Jon's bastard name. Ice to prevent you from being hurt by ice, just like the wall. Maybe he actually will get Ice armor. Probably have to be magical armor like the Others wear. Something I think Serwyn did with his mirror shield.

And wield a magic sword...

Dany folded her hands together. “Words are wind, even words like love and peace. I put more trust in deeds. In my Seven Kingdoms, knights go on quests to prove themselves worthy of the maiden that they love. They seek for magic swords, for chests of gold, for crowns stolen from a dragon’s hoard.”

Hizdahr arched an eyebrow. “The only dragons that I know are yours, and magic swords are even scarcer.

“Your father is dead, lad. Do you think you can bring him back?”

“No,” he answered, sullen.

“Good,” Mormont said. “We’ve seen the dead come back, you and me, and it’s not something I care to see again.” He ate the egg in two bites and flicked a bit of shell out from between his teeth. “Your brother is in the field with all the power of the north behind him. Any one of his lords bannermen commands more swords than you’ll find in all the Night’s Watch. Why do you imagine that they need your help? Are you such a mighty warrior, or do you carry a grumkin in your pocket to magic up your sword?

“The sword!” Matt insisted. The others took up the chant. “The sword, the sword, the sword.”

**If you subscribe to the theory that R+L=Lightbringer. Here we see Jon's friends were chanting for them to see Longclaw, but GRRM layered it with the chanting of men seeing a symbolic magic sword right in their presence.

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And wield a magic sword...

Dany folded her hands together. “Words are wind, even words like love and peace. I put more trust in deeds. In my Seven Kingdoms, knights go on quests to prove themselves worthy of the maiden that they love. They seek for magic swords, for chests of gold, for crowns stolen from a dragon’s hoard.”
Hizdahr arched an eyebrow. “The only dragons that I know are yours, and magic swords are even scarcer.
“Your father is dead, lad. Do you think you can bring him back?”
“No,” he answered, sullen.
“Good,” Mormont said. “We’ve seen the dead come back, you and me, and it’s not something I care to see again.” He ate the egg in two bites and flicked a bit of shell out from between his teeth. “Your brother is in the field with all the power of the north behind him. Any one of his lords bannermen commands more swords than you’ll find in all the Night’s Watch. Why do you imagine that they need your help? Are you such a mighty warrior, or do you carry a grumkin in your pocket to magic up your sword?
“The sword!” Matt insisted. The others took up the chant. “The sword, the sword, the sword.”
**If you subscribe to the theory that R+L=Lightbringer. Here we see Jon's friends were chanting for them to see Longclaw, but GRRM layered it with the chanting of men seeing a symbolic magic sword right in their presence.

Funny you mention that theory, I sort of think it is right and I sort of think it is wrong. I feel the use of the Ouroboros is correct, but I know enough about it to say it was not fully applied. You know I used to call Jon Nightbringer for awhile, people always took it the wrong way, they always thought it had something to do with the Others, but it was actually a symbolic play on the Night's watch. Now of course the World book came out and what did it hand me? The Sword of the evening. Love that name and it's symbolic nature. Now of course he was associated with Nymeria and all her watery goodness. And of course you know who else was associated with Nymeria? The Sword of the morning who she married. One in the north and one in the south. But that is the thing about the Ouroboros, it does not get to be on aspect, it has to be two aspects. Just like the Yin Yang. That is the great thing about cycles and duality, you can be one thing right now, and something else later.

See I can't really explain it, it would take to long, but right now I see Jon as the Sword of the evening, but eventually I see Jon as the Sword of the Morning. Just like in the KG speech, it's the beginning and the end. Or as I like to say the beginning is the end and the end is the beginning. How he gets their is another matter of course, but that is sort of how cycles work isn't it? You know it's a funny thing in the books, sometimes the moon eats the sun and sometimes the sun eats the moon, and sometimes they make nice and you get a super baby. But it always ends up with water, in water, symbolic of water. Every single time. Let say you had three apples, and someone threw one in the air and a bowman cored it, they he through a second apple in the air and what was whole became split and rotten, and finally a third apple was thrown in the air and the arrow missed and the apple landed in water.

You had the God Emperor who road around in a giant pearl, a Sun a Moon and a pearl. Third apple.

Then you had the blood betrayal and house divided and became rotten. Second apple

Then Azor cored Nissa. 1st apple

Though the order of the apples was inverted. Probably because the cycle is on the other half so what went down is now going up, what went forward is now beginning to go backwards. Azor is already on the move, next comes the long night, then the cycle will complete.

Tell me you ever read this prophecy bottom to top, and lateral not vertical?

. . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . .

. . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . .

. . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

I'll make it easy for you, this is how it reads.

Row Blood bed life.

Row two. Gold Dread death

Row three; All need is love, all need is love.

Bloody bed and life, one might almost say it's symbolic of birth. It's funny cause it's almost like Martin put bloody bed life in there. Of course he would never do that.

That Row two, you ever notice what has been sitting on the throne? Lots of Golden haired Lions, with that sigil above KL, you know the one that is divided in two? What happened to those stags anyway? Lets see one got dead, 2 got dead but the middle stag or the Second son Stannis he got Usurped, you might even say cast down. You got that Golden rose floating around as well. Honestly I prefer pale blue roses so the golden rose can suck it. Did you know Gold is actually the opposite of pale blue? Now of course Red and blue when used as symbols for classical elements like Ice and fire they act as opposites, but pure color wise it's gold or the shades of yellow.

Now that row three is funny because it does not matter if you go up or down, the end is the beginning and the beginning is the end.

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Nope; GRRM has said that knighthood doesn't really hold in the north because they follow the Old Gods and the Andal stuff never firmly took root.

Yes but that done down south after a southron battle by a southron king.

And Jorah is pretty agnostic. Religion doesn't really fit into his pragmatic approach to life so he doesn't particularly care either way.

Thanks!

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No, it means they have their strengths and weaknesses.

What was Rhaegar doing at fourteen, and what did he command at sixteen/seventeen.

All leaders have their learning curves, and Jon is no different.

As I stated before, while I think Rhaegar was smart enough to see Cersies corruption, (and let's face it, she didn't hide it well),

he crowned Lyanna in front of his already northern-paranoid father and knighted the Mountain.

I think Jon and Rhaegar are two-for-two.

I would really like to learn where and why he did so... Was it Harrenhal? Was it during his travels after Aegons birth? Or was it at another time? Somewhere in the year before the war...
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Avalatis,



well, that would be cheating. Especially since Dany's three sacrifices in AGoT - Viserys, Rhaego, and Drogo - sort of symbolically are reflected in the three dragons (lightbringers) she got - Viserion, Rhaegal, and Drogon. And yes, I know that Rhaegal was named after Rhaegar.



The 'reborn thing' should also not be taken literally. Westerosi metaphysics does not suggest that rebirth is a common thing or that dead souls are reborn on a regular basis. Until proven otherwise I'd suggest that Azor Ahai Reborn is an expected/prophesied hero (or rather a bundle of heroes) who is supposed to loosely fulfill the same role as Azor Ahai 1.0 while not actually being literally the same guy in a new body.



Also note that the Targaryen prophecy version only speaks of a promised prince - that guy does not seem to 'return' but rather is expected to finally show up.



Mountain knighting stuff:



That's no big deal, I imagine. Being knighted by some celebrity happens all the time. Remember how all the knights of the Blackwater were knighted by the Kingsguard after the battle? Rhaegar could either have knighted Gregor as a favor to Tywin while he was still hand, along with another bunch of Westermen or at Harrenhal after Gregor showed some prowess at during some squire competition.


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